Down with digital: Agree or Disagree?

Personally I hope D&D Next gets away from the digital aspect such as with DDI.

I would like them to put more emphasis on the books and getting them right the first time. I don't want the designers to use digital tools as a safety net when it comes to design, editing etc...

I look at Dungeons and Dragons as a pen and paper game first with a little help from digital second.

I am a very tech savy guy but when it comes to RPG's I'm a bit old school.

Discuss.
I do not agree. I like having digital access to things. Whether PDFs of books, character sheet and battle mat apps on my iPad, or a character builder. I like these things a lot. Seriously, if Wizards puts out easy to use ebook versions of the books that would be great. Your only allowed to charge once for the books, Wizards, got it.
what I really don't want is a crappy but necessary character builder like 4e has. Any program that isn't finished, or available would be a better word, till the end of the edition. I don't want badly implemented digital toys, do it right the first time. Hire the guys building InKarnate character creator to do the work. That program looks real nice.
I do not agree. I like having digital access to things. Whether PDFs of books, character sheet and battle mat apps on my iPad, or a character builder. I like these things a lot. Seriously, if Wizards puts out easy to use ebook versions of the books that would be great. Your only allowed to charge once for the books, Wizards, got it.
what I really don't want is a crappy but necessary character builder like 4e has. Any program that isn't finished, or available would be a better word, till the end of the edition. I don't want badly implemented digital toys, do it right the first time. Hire the guys building InKarnate character creator to do the work. That program looks real nice.



I can see both sides of the argument. I like digital toys and the ease of using them. I also like books that don't require reams of errata.

So really I don't think the OP is saying don't make digital tools, I think they are saying don't use digital tools as an excuse to make badly balanced books that need lots of errata.

So what I think they really need to do is farm out the digital tools to a real company like Atari or Bioware or someone that has made character creation tools for their RPG games. I mean its sad when the character builder for an MMO that only takes up 0.1% of the players participation time is better designed than a character builder for a game where character creation takes up 10% of the players participation time.
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
agreed, I like digital tools but get the damn core books right at the beginning, I dont want  "look online for the 62+ pages of errata" If its in the book it shouldent need errata... thats kind of the point of playtesting. If they were going to do it the other way, heck, come out with the game tomorrow and errata the hell out of it every day.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
Without a way to play the game online I likely will never have a chance to really play.  Sure I can get a game with 3 people together once every 2 months or so, but that's not worth buying the books for.
I don't think anyone is going to argue the fact that releasing books that are properly edited and require as little changes as possible is preferred. However, digital content makes my life as a player and DM so much easier. But there is a distinction on what I am willing to pay for in regards to electronic content - for the majority of content I want to own it. So whether we are talking about PDF or character builders it is mine to use offline or online. The only exception where I am willing to pay a subscription is for a virtual table top, but it would have to be able to replace current competitors like fantasy grounds.

Virtual table top is a key area where the player base can grow, especially if they synergize the market between creating adventures for sale, and adventures online. For example for all the art work and maps you release for a hardcopy or digital release (PDF), make the same material availble for sale electronically for a VTT, then take the extra step to have tokens available.
agreed, I like digital tools but get the damn core books right at the beginning, I dont want  "look online for the 62+ pages of errata" If its in the book it shouldent need errata... thats kind of the point of playtesting. If they were going to do it the other way, heck, come out with the game tomorrow and errata the hell out of it every day.

Pretty much every D&D book ever produced has needed errata. I don't even need to know that for certain or personally to feel confident in that claim -- it's just a fact of publishing. Playtesting catches a whole lot, but sometimes it's a matter of the editor forgetting something, or the designer failing to mention one of a hundred different rules changes that were determined upon the most recent playtest.

I'm all for digital tools. I like reading books in hand as much as you guys, but the digital tools were a big boon for 4th edition. No matter how much system bloat there was, I was always able to keep up with it and sift through it with ease. Dragon and Dungeon needn't be digital, but digital is much less expensive than print. But it'd be a darn shame if Wizards of the Coast gave up on digital tools. Understandable, given their terrible track record so far. The online character builder is still kinda bad.
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
I don't think anyone is going to argue the fact that releasing books that are properly edited and require as little changes as possible is preferred. However, digital content makes my life as a player and DM so much easier. But there is a distinction on what I am willing to pay for in regards to electronic content - for the majority of content I want to own it. So whether we are talking about PDF or character builders it is mine to use offline or online. The only exception where I am willing to pay a subscription is for a virtual table top, but it would have to be able to replace current competitors like fantasy grounds.

Virtual table top is a key area where the player base can grow, especially is they synergize the market between creating adventures for sale, and adventures online. For example for all the art work and maps you release for a hardcopy or digital release (PDF), make the same material availble for sale electronically for a VTT, then take the extra step to have tokens available.  



Yeah, that reminds me my 4E Fantasy Grounds game has some openings if anyone is interested. You can find the calendar here.
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
It's a digital age. Continued DDI support is basically a must for me staying with the brand nowadays. As long as it goes back to the same quality it was when it first came out. I couldn't wait for the next month back then.
Disagree.
The more digital the better.
I want pdf books with bookmarks & indexes.
I want character sheets with hyperlinks to the phb.
I want everything to be portable, on my laptop, nook, smartphone, and accessible on my PC.
I want to buy a book and get a pdf for free.
I want a digital table that will import my character sheet and have hyperlinks to the DMG for rules an monsters.
I want compiled magazines I can read on my kindle.
I disagree and want more digital than ever before.
Viva La "what ever version of D&D you are playing right now!"
I really, really prefer nice, high quality, physical books.  Bonus points if they have a consistent size/shape/design scheme (because it looks better on the shelf, and I have shelf OCD apparently).


However, moving away from digital products seems like a fool's errand.  Whether I (or you) like it or not, it's a huge huge part of the market, and is still hugely in demand.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
I have no problem with digital, but I want the game to be 100% playable without ever looking at a computer.
More than pdf, i'd like more an epub version of books,with hyperlinks on maps and rules,so i could buy a DDN library on my ebook reader.
About a online tool..uhm. I still prefer the offline ones;after all, a wifi connection is not everywhere and not everyone also has a tablet pc.
DM: Products of MY Imagination ©. Since 1986.
Having a playtest vastly reduces the need for errata. They get to pre-errata things.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Errata's a fact of life.  Game designers screw up (some more than others).  You either provide errata or it remains a broken game.  I have zero confidence in WotC's ability to get it right the first time, they're only human after all.  3e had tons of errata, Polymorph spells in particular underwent revision after revision because they were game-breakingly good.  The playtest itself already has some of 3e's worst flaws included as core mechanics, and the designers have done nothing but indicate that they're going to go rummaging around looking for more things to take from that edition.  To design a game that isn't broken requires a commitment to understanding the very numbers and economy of the game, and Mearls has repeatedly stated that they're trying to get away from rules in favor of rulings, which is a fancy way of saying "you're on your own for this one!"

Also, about 1/2 of 4e errata was adding "once per turn/round" in various ways.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Disagree.
The more digital the better.
I want pdf books with bookmarks & indexes.


Not PDF. The format sucks for documents that aren't going to be printed and don't have a need to look like they are printed.

Epub is good.

Heck, HTML is better than PDF.

I want character sheets with hyperlinks to the phb.
I want everything to be portable, on my laptop, nook, smartphone, and accessible on my PC.
I want to buy a book and get a pdf for free.
I want a digital table that will import my character sheet and have hyperlinks to the DMG for rules an monsters.
I want compiled magazines I can read on my kindle.
I disagree and want more digital than ever before.


I want full support for digital, without having to pay for dead trees.

Other people want full support via dead trees without having to have a computer at all. That should also happen.

Since the expensive part is developing the content, I don't see a problem with doing both.

I do want to say, though, that building a GOOD data model would be far easier for 4E (with 30 levels and dozens of classes and races) than for 5E (with 5 levels and a half-dozen classes and races). Considering that WotC still isn't using a GOOD data model for 4E, this has frightening implications for what we can expect of the digital tools.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
I'm not saying there won't be errata at all, I know there will be but I feel that having DDI made it possible for Wizards to be more relaxed when it came to "getting it right the first time".
Disagree.
The more digital the better.
I want pdf books with bookmarks & indexes.
I want character sheets with hyperlinks to the phb.
I want everything to be portable, on my laptop, nook, smartphone, and accessible on my PC.
I want to buy a book and get a pdf for free.
I want a digital table that will import my character sheet and have hyperlinks to the DMG for rules an monsters.
I want compiled magazines I can read on my kindle.
I disagree and want more digital than ever before.


I disagree that less digital is better and agree with PinkRose on all count. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Having digital is great if it attracts more people, but as the OP says it needs to be first and foremost a pen & paper experience. That means the books need to stand utterly alone with no issues BEFORE they port to digital. It doesn't matter how good the digital experience is, if the physical items aren't up to snuff the edition will be a complete failure. Remember, there is still only a tiny TINY percentage of the people using digital at all, never mind in roleplaying.


I definitely do not believe that last sentence.

In my own case, I have never met any of the last 3 DMs that I've played with. Or any of the other players in any of those games. There is only one of those games that I don't *know* was intercontinental, and it might have been; one campaign was three-continent.

THAT, I agree, is exceptional. But I believe that most of the D&D fanbase is on the internet and using electronic tools if good ones are available at a price they find reasonable. For starters I suspect that a large share of Pathfinder fans have downloaded the core book (which is free) so they can use the computer to search through it.

Now if you want to suggest that 4E fans mostly aren't using their computers for 4E D&D, that's probably true. Considering the poor quality of the current tools for the price and the fact that most PDFs of the books are of poor quality (and ALL of them currently not LEGALLY available at all), it's hardly surprising.

But that doesn't mean they aren't using computers, or wouldn't be happy to get legal ebooks and decent reasonably-priced tools...

As far as I am concerned, 5E is released when they make the ebooks and electronic tools available. If they don't do that until they are working on 6E, then that's when I will consider 5E to have been released.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
Companies that don't embrace digital in today's market, die.  No ifs, no buts.  Embracing digital wholeheartedly and expertly would be one of the single best things this edition could do.  Publishing hardcopy books is important, but the ongoing market will be in the magazines (which it's simply not financially viable to publish in dead-tree, by all accounts), the e-tools, the digital content.  Low errata is a laudable goal, but realistically, simply not possible if the plan is to continue publishing content down the line.  It's pretty inevitable that as the game expands, things will conflict, and those conflicts need fixing.

I'd use digital a LOT more in my games, if WotC were better at it.  As it is, I use it wherever I can, but it's so rarely possible, that it's not worth it.

I don't deny that, at the table, it's often easier to work p&p (though one of my friends has been successfully DMing from his iPad for a while now) - but the backend stuff that I do at home, I want to do on my computer, not on a pad and pen.

Doing both is fine, but digital DEFINITELY needs to be given the full time it deserves, or the company looks like a curmudgeonly dinosaur, and can't possibly hope to reach its full audience - what about those who can't get the books, but can get the internet?  There's a potential audience of billions out there who fit that description...

A poor digital showing will just be yet another nail in an already well-nailed-down coffin.  And I say will, rather than would, entirely on purpose, because I find it incredibly unlikely that this sort of thing will be taken remotely seriously, based on how 4e handled the digital side of things...
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Give me digital, or give me death!  ( I'll just roll up another character)

Go Digital! 
1 square =1 yard = 1 meter. "Fits all playstyles" the obvious choice Orzel is the mayor of Ranger-town. Favored enemies for Rangers
58033128 wrote:
Seems like community isn't going to give up calling mapless "Theatre of the Mind".  In the interest of equal pretentiousness, I'd like to start a motion to refer to map combat as "Tableau Vivant".  


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

Quite frankly, if Wizards doesn't put digital books out there, someone else will for them.
Quite frankly, if Wizards doesn't put digital books out there, someone else will for them.



This. So much this.

No digital, no deal for me.   
CORE MORE, NOT CORE BORE!
I'm not saying there won't be errata at all, I know there will be but I feel that having DDI made it possible for Wizards to be more relaxed when it came to "getting it right the first time".



I think there are a few factors here.  does 4e have a lot of errata?  Yes.  But there are also more products with 4e than most other RPGs out there.

The compiled errata for 4e is 140 pages, across 55 products thats an average of 2.5 pages per product.  Now in practice it's not quite so clean.  for instance the first PHB has 27 pages of errata.  while some of the adventures have perhaps a page.

but how does that compare to other RPG products?

FFG's Dark Herasy and WHFRP both clock in at 14 pages.

the pathfinder core book has about 7.5 pages of errata, most of the books have a few pages of errata as well.

in fact most RPGs out there have at least a small amout on errata, some more than others.  Im not seeing the huge deal.

 

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

Quite frankly, if Wizards doesn't put digital books out there, someone else will for them.


This is the other key point.  There's basically no way to avoid a black market in digital copies of everything.  Making a legitimate market, and making it easy and efficient for people to use it, gives you much, MUCH more control over your digital content than trying to pretend that the internet, and the illegitimate arenas, are not here.

Not going digital is failing your consumers in SO many ways.

e: on the errata note:  as I said earlier, it's a laudable goal to get everything right first time, but fundamentally an impossible one.  With the best will in the world, and even with public playtesting, there's really no way that you'll manage to playtest every combination of every option with every other option before release.  Some of the bent or broken interactions, will only be turned up after publication, and if they're not fixed, or they're left (like so many other things in this edition) up to the DM to houserule away, then that's yet another reason not to spend money on the edition.  I (would only) pay for books, on the assumption that the design team design the game in full, and that they fix any issues with it when they arise.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Tabletop board games have not died for lack of embracing the digital market.  In fact, I can think of one (Betrayal at House on the Hill) that suffered due to its online presence (the online errata, while sorely needed, makes playing the game nigh impossible.  A second, revised full rule set would have been much easier for the gaming public to use).

In a large gaming community/city (one so large the problem with new games is that many are playing too many to have time for another) I know of only one person who uses digital media.  Oddly enough, he reads the module we're using on his Ipad, even though the paper version is literally right in front of him every session.  That's hardly a ringing endorsement.
I definitely want to see more digital support but honestly if WotC thinks that they can rent me my character again then they are just dreaming.

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Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours
Disagree.
The more digital the better.
I want pdf books with bookmarks & indexes.


Not PDF. The format sucks for documents that aren't going to be printed and don't have a need to look like they are printed.

Epub is good.

Heck, HTML is better than PDF.

I want character sheets with hyperlinks to the phb.
I want everything to be portable, on my laptop, nook, smartphone, and accessible on my PC.
I want to buy a book and get a pdf for free.
I want a digital table that will import my character sheet and have hyperlinks to the DMG for rules an monsters.
I want compiled magazines I can read on my kindle.
I disagree and want more digital than ever before.


I want full support for digital, without having to pay for dead trees.

Other people want full support via dead trees without having to have a computer at all. That should also happen.

Since the expensive part is developing the content, I don't see a problem with doing both.

I do want to say, though, that building a GOOD data model would be far easier for 4E (with 30 levels and dozens of classes and races) than for 5E (with 5 levels and a half-dozen classes and races). Considering that WotC still isn't using a GOOD data model for 4E, this has frightening implications for what we can expect of the digital tools.



I don't see why they don't do print on demand and update the books as errata comes out. I mean the cost difference is like $2-$4 per book. I'm sure people would pay the extra money for an updated errata free rule book. They might double up on sales if they do this every 6 months or so. Some buy the books only one time, but many would buy a new book each year or every 6 months or so...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I have no objection at all to digital support, PDF books, or any other such thing.


However, if this occurs at the expense of the printed products, I stop being a fan.  I think KenzerCo has got it right; they put out very high-quality physical books along with well-indexed and set up PDF copies.


Similarly, I don't oppose any sort of Character Builder thing.  I love the Compendium (it's basically the whole reason I have DDI).  I just don't want to see a system where it's incredibly difficult to make characters without the digital tools, or any such thing.


Basically, as long as I can play the game without a computer and don't feel like I'm missing anything, I'm happy.  Given that my prerequisite is true, the more digital tools the better, as long as they meet my print barrier of quality.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Tabletop board games have not died for lack of embracing the digital market.  In fact, I can think of one (Betrayal at House on the Hill) that suffered due to its online presence (the online errata, while sorely needed, makes playing the game nigh impossible.  A second, revised full rule set would have been much easier for the gaming public to use).

In a large gaming community/city (one so large the problem with new games is that many are playing too many to have time for another) I know of only one person who uses digital media.  Oddly enough, he reads the module we're using on his Ipad, even though the paper version is literally right in front of him every session.  That's hardly a ringing endorsement.



How is that not a ringing endorsement.

If you had a stack of big heavy stone tablets with an adventure chiseled into them and a paper version sitting next to it which one would you grab and use?

Its the same with the digital version. The ability to tap a link and go right to a specific page, hyper linked references (like clicking a monster name and seeing its stats), etc...etc... I wouldn't touch the paper version either...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
If D&D doesn't go digital, it will once again be a financial failure. If you don't release on digital state worldwide...that means you release a "global brand with global financial expectations" only in 3 countries.

I know some of you don't care because you live on your 1st world country bubble with gaming/hobby stores, amazon, etc... but most of the world population don't... 
If D&D doesn't go digital, it will once again be a financial failure. If you don't release on digital state worldwide...that means you release a "global brand with global financial expectations" only in 3 countries.

I know some of you don't care because you live on your 1st world country bubble with gaming/hobby stores, amazon, etc... but most of the world population don't... 



Then how come Paizo is such a success? They have PDFs but that's it. Another company takes care of the character builder.

There are also other RPG companies that do just fine without the online support so why would WoTc suddenly fail?

If D&D doesn't go digital, it will once again be a financial failure. If you don't release on digital state worldwide...that means you release a "global brand with global financial expectations" only in 3 countries.

I know some of you don't care because you live on your 1st world country bubble with gaming/hobby stores, amazon, etc... but most of the world population don't... 



I feel your pain, my only options for a game is online or drive 30+ miles. I also have to order my books online or pay the $6 shipping and handling...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
If D&D doesn't go digital, it will once again be a financial failure. If you don't release on digital state worldwide...that means you release a "global brand with global financial expectations" only in 3 countries.

I know some of you don't care because you live on your 1st world country bubble with gaming/hobby stores, amazon, etc... but most of the world population don't... 



Then how come Paizo is such a success? They have PDFs but that's it. Another company takes care of the character builder.

There are also other RPG companies that do just fine without the online support so why would WoTc suddenly fail?




Paizo allows anyone to do whatever they want as long as they don't charge people for their products. So people have made all kinds of online and digital tools for Pathfinder.
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
If D&D doesn't go digital, it will once again be a financial failure. If you don't release on digital state worldwide...that means you release a "global brand with global financial expectations" only in 3 countries.

I know some of you don't care because you live on your 1st world country bubble with gaming/hobby stores, amazon, etc... but most of the world population don't... 



Then how come Paizo is such a success? They have PDFs but that's it. Another company takes care of the character builder.

There are also other RPG companies that do just fine without the online support so why would WoTc suddenly fail?




Pathfinder financial scope isn't worldwide expectation from Hasbro, it's still a small company with a small scope, so they don't have expectation or expenses comparable to something released worldwide.  Most RPG companies get a profit by just selling a dozen thousand books and be considered a success, because of how small they are...

I have the adventage of being on the border, i can sometimes buy the books if i cross the border and drive 120 miles to sandiego, but i can't blame anybody else outside of UK, USA or Canada to pirate the crap out of RPG books...getting them is borderline impossible and if possible, it's extremly expensive because the expenses of importing (buying PHB1 for 80 bucks....on a third world country? good luck)
Tabletop board games have not died for lack of embracing the digital market.  In fact, I can think of one (Betrayal at House on the Hill) that suffered due to its online presence (the online errata, while sorely needed, makes playing the game nigh impossible.  A second, revised full rule set would have been much easier for the gaming public to use).

In a large gaming community/city (one so large the problem with new games is that many are playing too many to have time for another) I know of only one person who uses digital media.  Oddly enough, he reads the module we're using on his Ipad, even though the paper version is literally right in front of him every session.  That's hardly a ringing endorsement.



How is that not a ringing endorsement.

If you had a stack of big heavy stone tablets with an adventure chiseled into them and a paper version sitting next to it which one would you grab and use?

Its the same with the digital version. The ability to tap a link and go right to a specific page, hyper linked references (like clicking a monster name and seeing its stats), etc...etc... I wouldn't touch the paper version either...

Because it takes him longer to find the information on the IPad, and he gripes and moans about the poor interface and giant red zones that make the text unreadable.  Using the IPad causes him and the group added stress, and increases the length of our encounters.

Quite frankly, if Wizards doesn't put digital books out there, someone else will for them.



This. So much this.

No digital, no deal for me.   



Same. I don't have an FLGS closer than 35 miles. Amazon has some crazy shipping costs at times. Digital is often the only way for me to obtain books and material.
Tabletop board games have not died for lack of embracing the digital market.  In fact, I can think of one (Betrayal at House on the Hill) that suffered due to its online presence (the online errata, while sorely needed, makes playing the game nigh impossible.  A second, revised full rule set would have been much easier for the gaming public to use).

In a large gaming community/city (one so large the problem with new games is that many are playing too many to have time for another) I know of only one person who uses digital media.  Oddly enough, he reads the module we're using on his Ipad, even though the paper version is literally right in front of him every session.  That's hardly a ringing endorsement.



How is that not a ringing endorsement.

If you had a stack of big heavy stone tablets with an adventure chiseled into them and a paper version sitting next to it which one would you grab and use?

Its the same with the digital version. The ability to tap a link and go right to a specific page, hyper linked references (like clicking a monster name and seeing its stats), etc...etc... I wouldn't touch the paper version either...

Because it takes him longer to find the information on the IPad, and he gripes and moans about the poor interface and giant red zones that make the text unreadable.  Using the IPad causes him and the group added stress, and increases the length of our encounters.




Well he needs to switch to Android then... solve all his problems including DRM...

You've seen those Android commercial right? Where they antagonize people waiting in line for the new iPhone and explain to them all the features are already here in android phones, plus android has more features than iPhones right?
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Tabletop board games have not died for lack of embracing the digital market.  In fact, I can think of one (Betrayal at House on the Hill) that suffered due to its online presence (the online errata, while sorely needed, makes playing the game nigh impossible.  A second, revised full rule set would have been much easier for the gaming public to use).

In a large gaming community/city (one so large the problem with new games is that many are playing too many to have time for another) I know of only one person who uses digital media.  Oddly enough, he reads the module we're using on his Ipad, even though the paper version is literally right in front of him every session.  That's hardly a ringing endorsement.



How is that not a ringing endorsement.

If you had a stack of big heavy stone tablets with an adventure chiseled into them and a paper version sitting next to it which one would you grab and use?

Its the same with the digital version. The ability to tap a link and go right to a specific page, hyper linked references (like clicking a monster name and seeing its stats), etc...etc... I wouldn't touch the paper version either...

Because it takes him longer to find the information on the IPad, and he gripes and moans about the poor interface and giant red zones that make the text unreadable.  Using the IPad causes him and the group added stress, and increases the length of our encounters.




Well he needs to switch to Android then... solve all his problems including DRM...

You've seen those Android commercial right? Where they antagonize people waiting in line for the new iPhone and explain to them all the features are already here in android phones, plus android has more features than iPhones right?



Can't tell that to Apple folks.

Jay Leno went around with an iphone 4s on the streets telling people it was the iphone 5. They had their own 4s in their other hand, and they were talking about how much faster the "new one" was, how many features it had, how much better the picture was, etc. It was the exact same phone. 
Tabletop board games have not died for lack of embracing the digital market.  In fact, I can think of one (Betrayal at House on the Hill) that suffered due to its online presence (the online errata, while sorely needed, makes playing the game nigh impossible.  A second, revised full rule set would have been much easier for the gaming public to use).

In a large gaming community/city (one so large the problem with new games is that many are playing too many to have time for another) I know of only one person who uses digital media.  Oddly enough, he reads the module we're using on his Ipad, even though the paper version is literally right in front of him every session.  That's hardly a ringing endorsement.



How is that not a ringing endorsement.

If you had a stack of big heavy stone tablets with an adventure chiseled into them and a paper version sitting next to it which one would you grab and use?

Its the same with the digital version. The ability to tap a link and go right to a specific page, hyper linked references (like clicking a monster name and seeing its stats), etc...etc... I wouldn't touch the paper version either...

Because it takes him longer to find the information on the IPad, and he gripes and moans about the poor interface and giant red zones that make the text unreadable.  Using the IPad causes him and the group added stress, and increases the length of our encounters.




Well he needs to switch to Android then... solve all his problems including DRM...

You've seen those Android commercial right? Where they antagonize people waiting in line for the new iPhone and explain to them all the features are already here in android phones, plus android has more features than iPhones right?

I haven't watched a television commercial in close to 5 years.  Cable television is dying in my region of the US to the point that providers are trying to force bundle it with Internet just to say that they have cable subscribers.
I'm pretty familair with Android.  At least my CM9 dual boot HP Touchpad seems to think so.  I'm under the impression that the text issues are on the actual .pdf though, so switching to another OS really isn't going to make things any better.