Funky Lands!

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I was thinking about, what I consider, fun designs for lands. I would like assistance at balancing them if you please? Thanks in advance!

Terranora --
Land (U)

When a land enters the battlefield under an opponents control, you may pay . If you do, put Terranora from your hand onto the battlefield.
Terranora enters the battlefield tapped.
:T:: Add to your mana pool.

===xxx===

The concept is that this land "has flash", but it only at certain times.

=====xxxxx=====

A cycle of 6 lands:

Whispering Winds --
Land (R)

Whispering Winds enters the battlefield tapped.
:T:: Add :wM:: or :UM: to your mana pool. You may reveal your hand. If you reveal two cards with the same name this way, add :wM::UM: to your mana pool instead.

Words of the ancients, present themselves to those destined for worth.

===xxx===

Everpools
--
Land (R)
Everpools enters the battlefield tapped.
:T:: Add :GM:: or :UM: to your mana pool. You may reveal your hand. If you reveal two cards with the same name this way, add :GM::UM: to your mana pool instead.

The passing reflections of Mungando often present the perfect future.

===xxx===

The cycle would be for every combination of colors not including black. ( :WUM:, :URM:, :RGM:, :RWM:, :GWM: ). How powerful it would be is TBD. Help wanted.
Official archnemesis of magicpablo666 Host of Reactionary Proud owner of "The Terrible Cube" The altimis Archive I'm baking lands!!! Beginner of GROMA
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58060728 wrote:
I carefully examine the walls of the room in a determined effort to not follow the GMs plot.
Triggered abilities can't get triggered from a hidden zone.  Which kind of makes sense, but makes this design very difficult :/

It's late, I'll try to think of a workaround latermaybe. 
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
I think Terranora is good. It would be an instant staple, but there is nothing wrong with that. Your name lands are cool too for a theme that caters to names, or cards with "A deck may have any number of cards named ~" (like Deviant Leprechaun); that of itself sounds like a cool block theme.

IMAGE(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/7/74/Spr_5b_645.png)

Fallingman has a good point.  The best workaround I have right now is based on Forecast: ": Put Terranova from your hand onto the battlefield tapped.  Activate this ability only during an opponent's end step [or whatever] and only if that opponent played a land this turn."

"Go, then. There are other worlds than these." -- Stephen King, The Gunslinger

Please feel free to copy this message into your sig.

You can just reveal the land as apart of the ability.


, Reveal this card from your hand: If a land entered the battlefield under an opponent's control this turn, put ~ onto the battlefield tapped.


or

, Reveal this card from your hand: If an opponent played a land this turn, you may put ~ onto the battlefield (under your control) tapped.


or


If an opponent played a land this turn, you may reveal ~ from your hand and pay . If you do, put it onto the battlefield tapped.


This way you can even remove the ETB clause since it'll be taken care of where it's needed.     
     

IMAGE(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/7/74/Spr_5b_645.png)

Either of GM's first two suggestions is pretty much perfect wording.  I'd go with "entered the battlefield" rather than the more restrictive "played a land", just to avoid false starts, but that's a personal preference.
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
Triggered abilities can't get triggered from a hidden zone.  Which kind of makes sense, but makes this design very difficult :/

It's late, I'll try to think of a workaround latermaybe. 


Wait, how does Miracles work then?

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

Triggered abilities can't get triggered from a hidden zone.  Which kind of makes sense, but makes this design very difficult :/

It's late, I'll try to think of a workaround latermaybe. 


Wait, how does Miracles work then?



Hmm, good question!

Looked up the FAQ for Avacyn Restored:


702.91. Miracle


702.91a Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability (see rule 603.10). "Miracle [cost]" means "You may reveal this card from your hand as you draw it if it's the first card you've drawn this turn. When you reveal this card this way, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."


702.91b If a player chooses to reveal a card using its miracle ability, he or she plays with that card revealed until that card leaves his or her hand, that ability resolves, or that ability otherwise leaves the stack.


So apparently the reminder text on the card is a very simplified version.  Miracle doesn't actually trigger when you draw the card, it triggers when you reveal it, and there's a static ability that allows you to reveal it as it's being drawn. 


 
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
Funkah
Triggered abilities can't get triggered from a hidden zone.  Which kind of makes sense, but makes this design very difficult :/

It's late, I'll try to think of a workaround latermaybe. 


Wait, how does Miracles work then?



I haven't read the entirety of the thread yet, but I don't see how it doesn't work when compared to Miracles or Forecast.
My thoughts are that it's going onto the battlefield anyways, so you CAN'T be lying about not having it in your hand. That was my biggest concern when it came to wording. Let's see what other people said.

GM has the right idea... but with some changes. I want it to ETB tapped always, so it gives you incentive to play it not on your turn. BUt i like that wording.
Official archnemesis of magicpablo666 Host of Reactionary Proud owner of "The Terrible Cube" The altimis Archive I'm baking lands!!! Beginner of GROMA
Notable Quotables:
58060728 wrote:
I carefully examine the walls of the room in a determined effort to not follow the GMs plot.
Triggered abilities can't get triggered from a hidden zone.  Which kind of makes sense, but makes this design very difficult :/

It's late, I'll try to think of a workaround latermaybe. 


Wait, how does Miracles work then?



I haven't read the entirety of the thread yet, but I don't see how it doesn't work when compared to Miracles or Forecast.
My thoughts are that it's going onto the battlefield anyways, so you CAN'T be lying about not having it in your hand. That was my biggest concern when it came to wording. Let's see what other people said.

GM has the right idea... but with some changes. I want it to ETB tapped always, so it gives you incentive to play it not on your turn. BUt i like that wording.



Miracle and Forecast both include a reveal that happens either as or just before the ability is put on the stack (in the case of Forecast it's directly on the card, in the case of Miracle it's glossed over in the reminder text but the full rules are a bit more complex).  It's not a matter of lying about the ability, it's the fact that the internal logic of the game can't handle that moment where a triggered ability is on the stack waiting to resolve, but that ability's properties are still hidden or undefined or nonexistent or... I don't even know what you'd call it.

Your opponent would play a land.  Then you would say "An ability triggers".  Then there's a pause where you wait for something to resolve, but it's not entirely clear what, and then you put the land onto the battlefield.  It's probably not an issue most of the time, but it's a weird corner case that really shouldn't exist.
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
Triggered abilities can't get triggered from a hidden zone.  Which kind of makes sense, but makes this design very difficult :/

It's late, I'll try to think of a workaround latermaybe. 


Wait, how does Miracles work then?



I haven't read the entirety of the thread yet, but I don't see how it doesn't work when compared to Miracles or Forecast.
My thoughts are that it's going onto the battlefield anyways, so you CAN'T be lying about not having it in your hand. That was my biggest concern when it came to wording. Let's see what other people said.

GM has the right idea... but with some changes. I want it to ETB tapped always, so it gives you incentive to play it not on your turn. BUt i like that wording.



Miracle and Forecast both include a reveal that happens either as or just before the ability is put on the stack (in the case of Forecast it's directly on the card, in the case of Miracle it's glossed over in the reminder text but the full rules are a bit more complex).  It's not a matter of lying about the ability, it's the fact that the internal logic of the game can't handle that moment where a triggered ability is on the stack waiting to resolve, but that ability's properties are still hidden or undefined or nonexistent or... I don't even know what you'd call it.

Your opponent would play a land.  Then you would say "An ability triggers".  Then there's a pause where you wait for something to resolve, but it's not entirely clear what, and then you put the land onto the battlefield.  It's probably not an issue most of the time, but it's a weird corner case that really shouldn't exist.



And that's a fair justification for a text editation. I still think it's bubkis, but I can go along with that.

Terranora --
Land (R)

Whenever a land enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, you may reveal this card from your hand. If you do, you may pay and put it onto the battlefield under your control.
Terranora enters the battlefield tapped.
:T:: Add to your mana pool.

===xxx===

Is there a less wordy way of doing this? I want it to enter the battlefield tapped regardless of when you play it. Is that unnecessary or is it decent for balance?
Official archnemesis of magicpablo666 Host of Reactionary Proud owner of "The Terrible Cube" The altimis Archive I'm baking lands!!! Beginner of GROMA
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58060728 wrote:
I carefully examine the walls of the room in a determined effort to not follow the GMs plot.
Hate to be pedantic, but it suffers the same problem.  The reveal doesn't happen until the ability is already resolving, at which point it isn't needed anymore.  It's the "sitting on the stack unrevealed" part that causes issues.

Not to say that I can think of a better idea...  If you're basing the ability off of Miracle, maybe borrowing some of its wording would help?

As a land enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, you may reveal this card from your hand and pay 1. When you do, put this card onto the battlefield.

Still feels awkward, I dunno.  Maybe this doesn't help.

Oh, and the ETB tapped ability works no matter how you put it onto the battlefield, so that's fine. 
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
Hate to be pedantic, but it suffers the same problem.  The reveal doesn't happen until the ability is already resolving, at which point it isn't needed anymore.  It's the "sitting on the stack unrevealed" part that causes issues.

Not to say that I can think of a better idea...  If you're basing the ability off of Miracle, maybe borrowing some of its wording would help?

As a land enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, you may reveal this card from your hand and pay 1. When you do, put this card onto the battlefield.

Still feels awkward, I dunno.  Maybe this doesn't help.

Oh, and the ETB tapped ability works no matter how you put it onto the battlefield, so that's fine. 



First, I know teh ETB works regardless, I'm asking is it worth it powerwise?

How does forecast work? I just don't understand how this is different than forecast really.
Granted forecast its revealed as part of the cost.
This its revealed when a land enters the battlefield. Then the rest of the ability triggers.

I can understand the difference there (costs don't use the stack, triggers do.) But I feel that they are similar enough. I guess, I'm excited that at least you're understanding what I'm trying to do, I'm just upset that it's still not right. Don't get me wrong, thanks for helping; I just didn't think it'd be this much work to design what should really be a simple land, haha.

If an opponent plays a land, you may play this land if you pay .
Official archnemesis of magicpablo666 Host of Reactionary Proud owner of "The Terrible Cube" The altimis Archive I'm baking lands!!! Beginner of GROMA
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58060728 wrote:
I carefully examine the walls of the room in a determined effort to not follow the GMs plot.
Forecast is an activated ability and weird stuff.
Oh, powerwise... I think that if you choose not to use its special ability, entering untapped should be fine.  It makes the option of simply playing it during your own turn a bit more viable.

The difference between this and Forecast is that a Forecasted card has already been revealed by the time the ability has been put on the stack.  During the upkeep step, the player decides "I'm going to pay mana, reveal this card and announce that I'm playing its ability" all in one action.  It's visible, it goes on the stack, and everyone knows what's supposed to happen when that ability resolves.  But if you say "When a land enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, reveal this card...", everything after the initial trigger condition is instructions for resolving the ability.  The instruction to reveal the card can't be followed until both players allow the triggered ability to resolve, and until then it's just a weird mystery ability with no rules text or anything, because not everyone can see it.

In order to work, you need some sort of static ability that allows you to reveal it at the proper time, but that never uses the stack at all.  Magic wording is almost like computer code. Any sentence structure that uses "When" in it has to be a triggered ability, there's just no other way to interpret it, and that means you've gotten the stack mixed up in this effect.  If you phrase it differently, with "if an opponent has played a land" or "as a land enters the battlefield" the rules of the stack don't apply. That way you as a player can notice the land entering the battlefield, reveal the card all in one action (just like revealing a Miracle card in the same action you drew it in), and then put the trigger on the stack, where it's plainly visible.
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
Oh, powerwise... I think that if you choose not to use its special ability, entering untapped should be fine.  It makes the option of simply playing it during your own turn a bit more viable.

The difference between this and Forecast is that a Forecasted card has already been revealed by the time the ability has been put on the stack.  During the upkeep step, the player decides "I'm going to pay mana, reveal this card and announce that I'm playing its ability" all in one action.  It's visible, it goes on the stack, and everyone knows what's supposed to happen when that ability resolves.  But if you say "When a land enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, reveal this card...", everything after the initial trigger condition is instructions for resolving the ability.  The instruction to reveal the card can't be followed until both players allow the triggered ability to resolve, and until then it's just a weird mystery ability with no rules text or anything, because not everyone can see it.

In order to work, you need some sort of static ability that allows you to reveal it at the proper time, but that never uses the stack at all.  Magic wording is almost like computer code. Any sentence structure that uses "When" in it has to be a triggered ability, there's just no other way to interpret it, and that means you've gotten the stack mixed up in this effect.  If you phrase it differently, with "if an opponent has played a land" or "as a land enters the battlefield" the rules of the stack don't apply. That way you as a player can notice the land entering the battlefield, reveal the card all in one action (just like revealing a Miracle card in the same action you drew it in), and then put the trigger on the stack, where it's plainly visible.



So...

As a land enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, you may put this onto the battlefield tapped under your control. If you do, sacrifice it unless you pay .

This should work correct? If so, then I'll reword it a bit.

The way I want it to happen:
Opponent plays a land.
You pay
You put it onto the battlefield.

How's this:

When a land enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, you may reveal this card from your hand. If you do, until the end of turn it gains ": Put this from your hand onto the battlefield tapped."
Official archnemesis of magicpablo666 Host of Reactionary Proud owner of "The Terrible Cube" The altimis Archive I'm baking lands!!! Beginner of GROMA
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58060728 wrote:
I carefully examine the walls of the room in a determined effort to not follow the GMs plot.

When a land enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, you may reveal this card from your hand. If you do, until the end of turn it gains ": Put this from your hand onto the battlefield tapped."



Euuuhhhh, I hate to say it but it's the same issue.  "When a land enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, " an ability goes on the stack.  But the ability is undefined because the card it's on is still hidden until that ability resolves.

Never mind, the "As a land enters the battlefield" version seems to work fine.  Both are probably fine for theoretical card design purposes, because honestly, if WotC ever decided to do an ability like this they wouldn't stand for hacky solutions that don't sound like real English, they'd find a way to change the triggered ability comp. rules or something.
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
You may play this land from your hand (as though it had flash / whenever you could cast an instant) by paying as long as a land entered the battlefield under an opponent's control this turn.

I'm not sure the cycle is a good idea, because you can tap it to pay for a spell anticipating two mana, reveal your hand to discover you don't get two mana (maybe the opponent played instant discard or you are illiterate or a big waster of everyone's time), and then you don't have enough mana, so you have to undo everything. You can put in the weirdo "Activate this ability only whenever you could cast an instant" to fix it.
You may play this land from your hand (as though it had flash / whenever you could cast an instant) by paying as long as a land entered the battlefield under an opponent's control this turn.

I'm not sure the cycle is a good idea, because you can tap it to pay for a spell anticipating two mana, reveal your hand to discover you don't get two mana (maybe the opponent played instant discard or you are illiterate or a big waster of everyone's time), and then you don't have enough mana, so you have to undo everything. You can put in the weirdo "Activate this ability only whenever you could cast an instant" to fix it.


Instant discard doesn't matter: Instant isn't fast enough to stop those mana abilities working.

And illiterate players playing incorrectly can happen with any card. I don't think the cycle is any more prone to that than any other set of cards. 
I was being glib but it is standard for any mana ability that can give an uncertain amount of mana to have that restriction. You don't have to care, but it will have that clause if it were printed.
I was being glib but it is standard for any mana ability that can give an uncertain amount of mana to have that restriction. You don't have to care, but it will have that clause if it were printed.


Axebane Guardian grants a changing amount of mana; but doesn't need that wording.

The only three cards I can find with that phrasing are Rhystic Cave, Charmed Pendant and, for some reason Lion's Eye Diamond

I have no idea why Lion's Eye has it, I assume there's some reason.
With Rhystic Cave and Charmed Pendant the person activating the ability doesn't know what they're getting, so obviously activating it while in the middle of casting something is going to go wrong.

But with this card the person playing it knows exactly what they're getting; so the problem of Rhystic Cave and Charmed Pendant isn't there. They can't tap it and suddenly find they're not getting the mana they think they are, any more than they could tap a forest and suddenly find it was giving rather than .

And as proof that your opponent doesn't need to know how much mana you're getting beforehand for it to be usable at mana-speed: Elvish Spirit Guide. It's in your hand, you reveal it, you get mana, no "anytime... instant" clause needed; because you know what you're getting.
I think lion's eye was printed before the rules allowed you to play mana abilities during the casting of a spell. The old rules required you to get mana first, then cast a spell. New rules allow you to announce the spell and start casting, and then activate mana abilities as needed. LED was never intended to let you put a card on the stack and then discard the rest of your hand to pay for it. So it got an instant speed restriction to make it play as intended.
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
No, it was printed the way it was so it would deliberately be janky. It's still broken, though. Graveyard shenanigans, madness, and Wheel of Fortune all tell me so.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Okay... so how about this (based on cycling wording:

Terranora --
Land (U)

, Reveal this card from your hand: Put this card onto the battlefield tapped under your control. Activate this ability only when a land enters the battlefield under an opponents control.
:T:: Add to your mana pool.
Official archnemesis of magicpablo666 Host of Reactionary Proud owner of "The Terrible Cube" The altimis Archive I'm baking lands!!! Beginner of GROMA
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58060728 wrote:
I carefully examine the walls of the room in a determined effort to not follow the GMs plot.
How's this for a land?

Kleid, Foci of Mana --
Legendary Land (MR)

Whenever your mana pool empties, you may untap Kleid, Foci of Mana.
:T:: Double the amount of each type of mana in your mana pool.

So... yeah, this is broken. I know... but it originally started out like this (I'm jsut too lazy to start a new thread, so I made it a land instead...):

Foci of Mana --
Legendary Artifact (MR)

Whenever your mana pool empties, you may untap Kleid, Foci of Mana.
:T:: Double the amount of each type of mana in your mana pool.


The concept is that it's a "free" Doubling Cube or an arguably better Caged Sun, but you could reuse it. My very terrible and original wording was...
: Double the amount of each type of mana in your mana pool. Activate this ability only once each turn, for each time your mana pool empties.

So, one thing I was considering... to lower the cost, is adding: "Foci of Mana doesn't untap during your untap step." and have it enter tapped then lowering the cost to at least maybe ...
That way, you need to cast something else, or float mana and wait before you can use it... sounds good for that right? i dunno... jsut a thought I had... anyone care to critique?
Official archnemesis of magicpablo666 Host of Reactionary Proud owner of "The Terrible Cube" The altimis Archive I'm baking lands!!! Beginner of GROMA
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58060728 wrote:
I carefully examine the walls of the room in a determined effort to not follow the GMs plot.
I had a ten-card cycle of lands that were basically

White Land

Land

: Add to your mana pool, then transform ~.

////

Blue Land

Land

: Add to your mana pool, then transform ~.

Then I realized it could be a 20-card cycle, and I started splitting it into two separate blocks.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
I had a ten-card cycle of lands that were basically

White Land

Land

: Add to your mana pool, then transform ~.

////

Blue Land

Land

: Add to your mana pool, then transform ~.

Then I realized it could be a 20-card cycle, and I started splitting it into two separate blocks.




I dunno if you'd want to make that a twenty card cycle though... I really like the idea, but would would you really want to print almost identical cards like that?

White land --
Land

:T:: Add :WM: to your mana pool, then transform this.

---xxx---

Blue land --
Land

:T:: Add :UM: to your mana pool, then transform this.


AND

Blue land --
Land

:T:: Add :UM: to yur mana pool, then transform this.

---xxx---

White land --
Land

:T:: Add :WM: to your mana pool, then transform this.



If they were everytime you use it, I could understand, but because they alternate (almost) every turn, is it extremely important which one comes out first? Again, though I like the idea, just twenty sounds like too much for this kind of design.
Official archnemesis of magicpablo666 Host of Reactionary Proud owner of "The Terrible Cube" The altimis Archive I'm baking lands!!! Beginner of GROMA
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58060728 wrote:
I carefully examine the walls of the room in a determined effort to not follow the GMs plot.
Also, I thought of a new land subtype, that they'll probably never do. So I'll do it instead!

War-Torn Field --
Land - Plains Arena (U)

War-Torn Field enters the battlefield tapped.
White creatures get +2/+2 and have Vigilance.
Whenever another arena with a different name enters the battlefield, sacrifice this land.


Still polishing it...
Official archnemesis of magicpablo666 Host of Reactionary Proud owner of "The Terrible Cube" The altimis Archive I'm baking lands!!! Beginner of GROMA
Notable Quotables:
58060728 wrote:
I carefully examine the walls of the room in a determined effort to not follow the GMs plot.
Also, I thought of a new land subtype, that they'll probably never do. So I'll do it instead!

War Torn Field --
Land - Arena (U)

White creatures get +2/+2 and have Vigilance.
Whenever another arena with a different name enters the battlefield, sacrifice this land.


Still polishing it...



That's just a free world enchantment.
Yes... the concept is that it's a land though... I was gonna call it battlefield, but that already has rules meaning.

I really like the concept, but it being in it's infantile stages right now, it's pretty bad.

Another one I thought of was this:

Rigid Foothills --
Land - Mountain Arena (U)

Rigid Foothills enters the battlefield tapped.
Creatures with haste have first strike.
Whenever another arena enters the battlefield, sacrifice this card.


The original idea was that it was a land that doesn't tap for mana, but now that I think about it... it probably should to better it as a whole. I'll give it a land subtype as well so it can produce a color. Or is that TOO good and should just have the ability for adding the appropriate mana?
Official archnemesis of magicpablo666 Host of Reactionary Proud owner of "The Terrible Cube" The altimis Archive I'm baking lands!!! Beginner of GROMA
Notable Quotables:
58060728 wrote:
I carefully examine the walls of the room in a determined effort to not follow the GMs plot.
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