Heroic Exertion - Giving the at-will/CS fighter strategic choices.

Heroic Exertion 


Expend a CS die (sometimes called straining or pushing yourself)  this is recovered when you have an opportunity to relax and shake it off not necessarily a long time.  Your CS based action is more effective than the CS dice than you spend. I spent only one CS die but it gave me 3 die of effect.

In effect by having a heroic exertion rule maneuvers don't need to be categorized as encounter powers (they just need higher cs die costs) or any such thing those using the rule will have fighters with climactic abilities. One noted benefit is that it has a discouragement for hitting with your biggest mojo at the beginning of the fight since the strain makes you less effective subsequently. 


Climactic Maneuvers


Sacrifice Moves
Similar to Heroic exertion above except HD might be spent for a similar purpose  or specific moves may be designated as requiring the HD independent of their CS cost. (suggested I think by CarlT.)


Desperation Moves
Climactic  moves can only be accessed when you are on the ropes such as below 50 percent hit points these may be more erratic and more powerful (having reduced chance to hit but doing more damage or actually having more extreme effects or effects that involve rolling on a table making them unpredictable)


Changing the fighter to Encounter Based CS 


No I don't mean multiplying the number of dice you get (this might work better) Use the above rules plus one more.
It's easy to assume and see how one might be disinclined to exert early because of the penalty  but what if Desperation moves were also available after all CS dice are expended?  ... then desperation becomes the culmination of the fight and using the big booms even when you get a temporary reduction in capability is tempting. (need to ward against this becoming the only gambit - ie careful calibration so desperation moves aren't too useful)


 

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

As another option sure.  For me no.  This though could be just like the various definitions of the wizard they are thinking about.
Has an unfortunate smell of "gimp yourself to do something cool".
...whatever
Has an unfortunate smell of "gimp yourself to do something cool".


Its choice drivin.

If you do the exertion defensively you may prevent taking damage that would have taken you or an ally down and out of the action... worth a gimp? or offensively you may shorten the fight by taking out an adversary quicker...  resulting in fewer rounds that you even need the CS dice. 

Expending the HD is the Daily resource in there which doesnt gimp and its more strategic.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Has an unfortunate smell of "gimp yourself to do something cool".


Its choice drivin.

If you do the exertion defensively you may prevent taking damage that would have taken you or an ally down and out of the action... worth a gimp? or offensively you may shorten the fight by taking out an adversary quicker...  resulting in fewer rounds that you even need the CS dice.

Expending the HD is the Daily resource in there which doesnt gimp and its more strategic.



Id rather the Fighter be able to do cool things without having to gimp themselves.
...whatever
Its not really much different than the nova concept. Are you gimped after you can nolonger do a nova? You spent all your action points on it... and maybe an encounter power too.

At the end of a longer duration fight in 4e at-wills becoming the norm is pretty gimped. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I am still very much against the idea of using hit dice for anything but healing. Self healing is already way too limited in DDN, if you let hit dice be spent on other things, you just make a cleric that much more vital to the group, because access to magical healing opens up the characters to being able to use more offense. Given I don't want to see clerics be any more mandatory than they already are, the answer to that is no. 

Desperation moves requiring both specific triggers and being less accurate means they'll rarely be used. And thus aren't really a good counterpart/compensation to making CS dice encounter based, especially without boosting up the effectiveness of CS abilities and giving more dice.

 Personally, I'd like to see something like this:
-A character can double his CS dice available for one turn. Doing so fatigues the fighter, reducing his available CS dice by 1 until he can take a short rest.
-A character can tripple his CS dice available for one turn. Doing so exhausts the fighter, reducing his available CS dice by 1 until he can take a long rest.
-Some maneuvers cost more dice to use.
-Fighters start out with the 2 basic maneuvers, plus 3 more at level 1, and gains an additional maneuver every level. 

This allows for a couple of things. 
1) The Fighter stays at-will for people who want to use it that way.
1a) Even players who don't care for at-will only but don't want to bother with all of the other maneuvers can use a daily effect for just lots of damage/lots of soak. Getting 3x your parry dice can be a solid emergency "save my skin" ability, for example.
2) Fighters gain access to Encounter/Daily abilities that run from the same resource, allowing for having those types of abilities without breaking versimillitude.
3) As the Fighter uses his more potent abilities, he wears down. If a Fighter uses his daily ability at level 1, that's all he can do for the day. At level 5, if he uses a daily, he will still have an extra die left he can use, but he is noticeably weaker for the rest of the day. Again this helps with versimillitude, as it shows that the effort put into these abilities tired the character out.
4) It allows for lower level Encounter/Daily abilities to become easier to use at higher levels. A level 1 daily would be at will by level 9-10, and could be used as an encounter ability by level 5.
5) It allows for more potent abilities at high levels that can never become at-will. If CS dice caps at 5 dice, a maneuver that costs 15 dice is going to be the epitome of what a character can do. You can make an ability like that something really epic, on par with the power of a 10th level spell.  
 
Desperation moves requiring both specific triggers and being less accurate means they'll rarely be used. And thus aren't really a good counterpart/compensation to making CS dice encounter based, especially without boosting up the effectiveness of CS abilities and giving more dice.


That is actually on my list anyway.. as well as boosting those Desparation moves on there own... they need calibrated I mentioned that... how much accuracy lost? doesnt even need to be huge (it could be token flavor).
 
 Personally, I'd like to see something like this:
-A character can double his CS dice available for one turn. Doing so fatigues the fighter, reducing his available CS dice by 1 until he can take a short rest.


I mentioned it trippling it for that but... why for all your dice not just a specific use?
 
-A character can tripple his CS dice available for one turn. Doing so exhausts the fighter, reducing his available CS dice by 1 until he can take a long rest.


instead of using HD eh.... we get more of the gimp effect mentioned... which I only want a little of 
 
-Some maneuvers cost more dice to use.


Already assumed - think the devs have mentioned this.

-Fighters start out with the 2 basic maneuvers, plus 3 more at level 1, and gains an additional maneuver every level. 


The numbers game of how many maneuvers they have is a separate thing for me.

This allows for a couple of things. 
1) The Fighter stays at-will for people who want to use it that way.
1a) Even players who don't care for at-will only but don't want to bother with all of the other maneuvers can use a daily effect for just lots of damage/lots of soak. Getting 3x your parry dice can be a solid emergency "save my skin" ability, for example.


Thats right.. almost like ahem self healing but with an immediate flavor (which is one reason the HD expenditure imight be balanced around  ;p)

2) Fighters gain access to Encounter/Daily abilities that run from the same resource, allowing for having those types of abilities without breaking versimillitude.


Everyone has HD though.

3) As the Fighter uses his more potent abilities, he wears down. If a Fighter uses his daily ability at level
1, that's all he can do for the day. At level 5, if he uses a daily, he will still have an extra die left he can use, but he is noticeably weaker for the rest of the day. Again this helps with versimillitude, as it shows that the effort put into these abilities tired the character out.

 
Thats theidea of Heroic Exertion but most exertion doesnt last all day I can get damn winded and recover after a few minutes.. (or I could when I was young and athletic.) 

4) It allows for lower level Encounter/Daily abilities to become easier to use at higher levels. A level 1 daily would be at will by level 9-10, and could be used as an encounter ability by level 5.


Yup 

5) It allows for more potent abilities at high levels that can never become at-will. If CS dice caps at 5 dice, a maneuver that costs 15 dice is going to be the epitome of what a character can do. You can make an ability like that something really epic, on par with the power of a 10th level spell.  


And shazam yes.. you might have convinced me on allowing CS dice for a Daily effect too.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Has an unfortunate smell of "gimp yourself to do something cool".


Its choice drivin.

If you do the exertion defensively you may prevent taking damage that would have taken you or an ally down and out of the action... worth a gimp? or offensively you may shorten the fight by taking out an adversary quicker...  resulting in fewer rounds that you even need the CS dice.

Expending the HD is the Daily resource in there which doesnt gimp and its more strategic.



Id rather the Fighter be able to do cool things without having to gimp themselves.



Further if you can finish the fight with the move you arent gimped at all...  its making choices.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Desperation moves on a fighter?

Hey? C'mon c'mon. Ret's Go! Okay!

Seriously, like the idea.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Desperation moves on a fighter?

Hey? C'mon c'mon. Ret's Go! Okay!

Seriously, like the idea.



They could take some calibrating to make them enter play often enough to be interesting and worth there mechanical weight. 

Combats that go too quickly with heros going from all to nothing in hit points would make that rule less valuable though I guess fighters parrying  (can ameliorate that a bit) 


  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

As another option sure.  For me no.  This though could be just like the various definitions of the wizard they are thinking about.



Its certainly a modular concept ... with making sure desparation moves are good enough but not too good ...   being potentially the largest stickler.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I like using the CS mechanic to get "encounter exploits" or whatever name.

I think it's just a matter of tuning the cost and benefit.

For cost I think an Encounter Exploit should require you to expend a CS die and that die won't come back until after at least a short rest.

They don't really have to be "encounter/daily" powers. They just have to be martial maneuvers worth their cost.

This can make them repeatable (provided you have CS dice to expend). Some folks complained that fighters couldn't repeat encounter powers. Now they can, as long as they can pay. Otherwise, too tired or tapped to try again.

More powerful martial maneuvers might just require more CS dice. For example, spend 2 CS dice to make 2 attacks this round. These dice don't recover until after you take a short rest.

Designed correctly, you have a passing shot at pleasing even Emerikol's group.

And we don't really have to slap on another mechanic or turn CS dice inside-out. Just different rate of recovery am varying dice cost.

-Brad

I mentioned it trippling it for that but... why for all your dice not just a specific use?




The intent is to unlock CS abilities that cost more dice, and potentially allowing a little more mixing and matching when pushing yourself. Just trippling the current use lets you get things like "push the enemy back 30 feet"  but not "Push the enemy 20ft and knock him prone" for example. It also wouldn't let you unlock anything you couldn't do normally, it just makes you better at what you normally do.


instead of using HD eh.... we get more of the gimp effect mentioned... which I only want a little of




The "gimp effect" is what makes it an interesting choice. On the other hand, HD isn't an interesting choice, because either you need the HP to self heal, in which case you never use the abilities, or you have a cleric healing battery, and you don't need your HD for healing, in which case you blow through your HD as quickly as possible.

Everyone has HD though.



So?  I thought this thread was about the Fighter. 
@Garthanos

I guess you didn't get my King of Fighters/Fatal Fury joke.

But I do see this an option to get fighters to get fighters to be closer to warriors of 2D fighter games.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

@Garthanos I guess you didn't get my King of Fighters/Fatal Fury joke. But I do see this an option to get fighters to get fighters to be closer to warriors of 2D fighter games.



You are correct right over my head and out the window... (as ummm I am completely unfamiliar with the context).
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 


The intent is to unlock CS abilities that cost more dice, and potentially allowing a little more mixing and matching when pushing yourself. Just trippling the current use lets you get things like "push the enemy back 30 feet"  but not "Push the enemy 20ft and knock him prone" for example. It also wouldn't let you unlock anything you couldn't do normally, it just makes you better at what you normally do.



Hmmm costing only one die but multiplying all dice.... oooh now that is a big bad effect.


The "gimp effect" is what makes it an interesting choice. On the other hand, HD isn't an interesting choice, because either you need the HP to self heal, in which case you never use the abilities, or you have a cleric healing battery, and you don't need your HD for healing, in which case you blow through your HD as quickly as possible.


Yup it has possibilities and the Cleric is becoming an enabler for awesome in a decidedly different way than the Warlord.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Personally, I'd like to see something like this:
-A character can double his CS dice available for one turn. Doing so fatigues the fighter, reducing his available CS dice by 1 until he can take a short rest.
-A character can tripple his CS dice available for one turn. Doing so exhausts the fighter, reducing his available CS dice by 1 until he can take a long rest.
-Some maneuvers cost more dice to use.


Sounds good.

Also sounds like a pretty logical and straightforward extention of the existing system.  I think that's a plus.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
 


So?  I thought this thread was about the Fighter. 





I think its nice that everyone have similar resources limits... and HD strike me as the same kind of resources as deep reserve life force style energy

I can also see spells tapping in to it to create there biggest awesome. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I like the idea. 
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Desperation moves requiring both specific triggers and being less accurate means they'll rarely be used. And thus aren't really a good counterpart/compensation to making CS dice encounter based, especially without boosting up the effectiveness of CS abilities and giving more dice.

 Personally, I'd like to see something like this:
-A character can double his CS dice available for one turn. Doing so fatigues the fighter, reducing his available CS dice by 1 until he can take a short rest.
-A character can tripple his CS dice available for one turn. Doing so exhausts the fighter, reducing his available CS dice by 1 until he can take a long rest.
 



I like this take on it quite a bit.
Gives both flexibility and nova/heroic moment potential.
+1 to the concept, though I have reservations about using HD and about daily uses.  I think I favor Seerow's "double the whole pool" system, but I'd have to see it a bit more fleshed out in terms of what you can do with a lot of dice.

I love that it gives resource management decisions to the fighter in a way that a) makes perfect in-world sense, and b) can be easily ignored by those that don't like it, in the same way that those that don't like CS dice in the first place can just add it to their damage all the time and not think about it.  I also love that end-of-combat spikes can mop up an encounter that's winding down and already decided, or rip victory from the hands of certain defeat.

I have quibbles though.  
I'm not a fan of trading HD for cool stuff, because it means a party without a cleric doesn't get to do cool stuff and it leads to 5 minute work day issues.  The same goes for daily use of CS dice, although less so and no more so than the wizard so it's partly moot (although not completely, two characters power spiking is in fact worse than one character power spiking, and it's always been the power swings that bugged me about 5mwd more than the story break).  There's also a slight realism problem imagining a fighter doing something in six seconds that wipes him out for the whole day.  For the next minute or so until he has a chance to catch his breath, great, but for the rest of the day?

I also think it's important that using CS dice is not hugely better than not using CS dice.  This prevents the choice not to bother with the rule (or even to add/subtract it as optional) from having too big an impact on power levels.  That may be problematic for Seerow's system, as it makes using the dice substantially more valuable.  You could cancel that out by making it a module, where fighters using the optional encounter/daily expenditure rule get extra HD slower than their simpler brethren (keep in mind that there is no difference between the whole pool/single die versions when you've only got the one die).  

You also need to worry about option bloat.  If you start having two and three times as many ways to spend your dice, and maneuvres that you can only use if you spend encounter or daily resources (while simpler fighters can never use them), you need to be able to learn more combat maneuvres to get the full benefit of the system.  But first, this is a nother area where the more complicated fighter is pulling ahead in power, and second, you are quickly going to reach a point where the fighter hits option paralysis.   If he had enough options when he only had one die (but could occassionally use 2 or 3), and then he got a second and needed enough options to use not just two but 4 and 6, and then he got a third and needed enough options to use not just 3 but 6 and 9 (granted he already had some 3s and 6s), if he ever gets to 4 dice he's going to have literally dozens of options.  And that's before considering the permutations.  Unless he starts forgetting some, which is a tad difficult to explain in-world.

That's not insurmountable though.  The key is to focus on upgrades.  You get the maneuvre that lets you push a guy 10' for one die, and then you can spend up to three  dice to push him 30'.  You get the maneuvre that lets you daze a guy for 2 dice, and then for 6 you can stun him.  For 4 dice, Jab lets you make a proper attack (that you can spend extra dice to put maneuvers on) and Glancing blow lets you do damage on a roll of 5 or higher.  

Desperation maneuvres are another area where I worry about making the complex variant better than the simple one.  It's going to be tough to make those cool without making them awesome, or gimping them overmuch either.   
 But first, this is a nother area where the more complicated fighter is pulling ahead in power 



Assuming the costs are actually appropriate it ought to enhance peak power without "too greatly" impacting median power... but yes easy to let either case inflate the actutal effectiveness by the way a simple inflation that is remeniscent of desparation moves might be enhanced critical hits (and since critical hits are a pretty simple element which implement peak performance increase its basically an analog to these climactic and controlled empowerments.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

 But first, this is a nother area where the more complicated fighter is pulling ahead in power 



Assuming the costs are actually appropriate it ought to enhance peak power without "too greatly" impacting median power... but yes easy to let either case inflate the actutal effectiveness by the way a simple inflation that is remeniscent of desparation moves might be enhanced critical hits (and since critical hits are a pretty simple element which implement peak performance increase its basically an analog to these climactic and controlled empowerments.



I am specifically meaning making enhanced more frequent critical hits an alternative to other forms of Climactic Moves.

Power Spiking is fun and is a portion of what these rules are seeking ... but yes needs to be paid for in some manner... the possibility and likelihood of being impaired is the first case and the HD case its a traditional glass cannon payment.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Very nice idea seerow. This is very similar to the fighter complexity idea I suggested. But I must say I like seerow's idea even better.

Keeping abstract bursts could cover most playstyles, balanced with appropriate hindrance and give players who find the already existing repetitive at will resource boring something different to use. A heroic effort if you will.

HD for it? I hope not.



 

Oh and another thing I worry about (although I still love the concept): there's really no downside to blowing your CS dice as an encounter resource in the final rounds, if you haven't already.  This wouldn't be so much of a problem (since there are plenty of reasons you might want to blow them earlier), except that cutting away the downside makes them strictly better than not using them, and thus hoses "simple" fighters.  I don't think WotC is going to bite if simple fighters get hosed.  Paying HD instead of CS dice would get around that a little, but a lot of us don't like using HD for good reasons.

Maybe the encounter resource needs to go, leaving only the daily resource?  I'm not a fan of the idea, but at least if it's a daily resource there's an incentive not to use it because you might have another encounter today.  I'm just brainstorming ideas here, there needs to be a cost that actually costs something to keep simple fighters on par with complex fighters.

Maybe if it's an optional rule, rather than just "use it in the default way" sort of rule, that comes with reduced HD size and progression?  You only get d4s to start with, you upgrade to d6s when simples get d8s, to d8s when they get 2d8s, etc.  So your baseline is lower, but you spike higher.  Comparing d4s to d6s, the d6s will get you an extra point every round, but d4s will get you an extra 1.5 points every encounter and 4 points once a day at a time it's more useful and with extra options (to do stuff with 2 and 3 dice when the other guy gets only 1).  It's a bit of a raw deal at first level, but you're going to want to start with more maneuvres at first level relative to the proportion of extra maneuvres you'll need at higher levels so you get a little boost from versatility.  And when you're comparing d6s to d8s, you're trading 1 point every round for 2.5 points every encounter and 6 points once a day; although the deal turns sour again comparing 1d8 to 2d8, and then promptly reverses and turns to awesome when you compare 2d8 complex to 2d10 simple (which I presume to be the next step in the progression).  Maybe the progression needs to be 1d4, 1d4, 1d6, 1d6, 2d6, 2d6, 2d6, 2d8... THe specifics are not really the point.  The point is to make it not clearly better to use the complex rules (mathematically, anyway)
and thus hoses "simple" fighters


If "simple fighters" are going to just be those who use CS just for damage, why does it "hose" them?  They should be able to do the same trick, to get more dice (temporarily) - they're just going to use it all for damage.

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Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
By "simple fighters," I meant those who do not make use of the mechanic allowing them to expend CS dice more permanently.  They ignore the fact that that option is open to them.  That is, they use their CS dice for extra damage every round, and do not in fact take double dice against the last monster of the encounter.  Therefore, they lose out on an extra die of damage or damage reduction in the last round of the encounter and gain nothing in return.  On the assumption that the decision to make an encounter or daily use of CS dice before the last round of the encounter or day is one consciously made because it is more important at that moment than the dice foregone in future rounds, there will always be a net benefit to taking advantage of the "complex" mechanic that is at least as big as using it in the final round, which must be positive as it has no cost.  In other words, the mechanic makes fighters more powerful, and therefore "simple" fighters who refuse to use it get hosed.  

I don't want to play a simple fighter.  Perhaps no one wants to play a simple fighter.  But I think the option needs to be there for any potential "old schoolers" who just want to do the same thing every round of combat.  Whenever somebody from WotC talks about CS dice, they always say that someone who doesn't like them can just add the dice to damage every round and be roughly on par with someone who likes it and makes a decision every round how to use it.  That seems to be important to them.  In the interests of making this potential mechanic more pallatable to WotC, I suggest we make it important to us as well.  Someone who doesn't like the idea of expending CS dice more permanently shouldn't have to in order to be roughly on par with someone who does.  Someone who uses the mechanic intelligently can earn the fruits of his good judgment, but mindless application (i.e. using it on the final round, where there is no reason not to) should not increase power level.

BTW, reducing CS die size by one category relative to "simple" fighters makes "complex" fighters better as die size increases, unless average encounter length increases by 1 round every four levels.   Do we think that's a realistic assumption?  Certainly if you run the numbers based on the bestiary, PC durability (in terms of rounds of combat a rogue can survive against an average monster of his level) seems to increase faster than that.  Unfortunately, it still completely explodes on Seerow's version once you hit three dice, because then you get two daily and encounter uses with massive benefits.  I'm beginning to think Garthanos' "multiply the die you're using" version is a better bet.
Oh and another thing I worry about (although I still love the concept): there's really no downside to blowing your CS dice as an encounter resource in the final rounds, if you haven't already.  


This wouldn't be so much of a problem (since there are plenty of reasons you might want to blow them earlier), except that cutting away the downside makes them strictly better than not using them, and thus hoses "simple" fighters.  


I am thinking to give them there own simple climax in the form of higher chance of critical hit. 
Think about it ... its a brainless choiceless option that gives them some climactic effects.

Its not about power vs not power its choices vs not choices. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

So the simple fighter would then have a wild climax that sometimes occured in round one ... and the more complex fighter has one which usually tries to wait till it will resolve the situation in a satisfying boom ;p

Hey for me that is a goal  
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

It's an idea.  I see a few problems, though it may be workable.  First and foremost, it's adding an extra rule and an extra bit of power level to "simple" fighters.  Not an extra decision, granted, but an extra rule they have to remember (Oh, I'm playing a simple fighter now, so this 19 is a crit even though "normals" like the fighter next to me or the rogue I played last week need a 20).  And an extra bit of perk that all the other classes need to balance against.

Second, increased crits are not hugely useful when a fair chunk of the bestiary can already get one-shotted by the average "simple" fighter (recalling that he's always adding his CS dice to damage).  He may get a crit on the 19 or whatever at a time that it actually makes a difference in the number of rounds the monster gets to live maybe once in 10 combats (generously), while the "complex" fighter can use his spike every combat, generally to useful effect since he only uses it when it's useful. 

Third, I'm not sure the benefits of increased criticals are going to scale with the benefits of extra spiking from extra CS dice, especially if expending dice multiplies the whole pool (which, having run the numbers, I am no longer in favor of, the spikes are just too ridiculous at higher levels).  That means increasing the chance to crit with level, which could well result in critting way more often than is reasonable, and forcing similar power inflations on other classes.  Cut out daily spikes and multiply only dice expended, and the scaling matches pretty well, though. 
A "simple fighter" who uses none of his special abilities nor takes advantage of his limited resources is going to be weaker than a fighter taking advantage of all of his features. This is something that is unavoidable. Characters with more options are almost always going to be superior to characters with no options. The current complaint is like looking at the Wizard and complaining the simple wizard who uses nothing but his cantrips is weaker than the wizard who uses his spells. The answer to that is "Duh" of course the Wizard actually using his spells will be stronger.

At least in this case, a Fighter who uses his resources poorly will likely end up weaker than a Fighter who doesn't use any at all (blowing your 1 CS die at level 1 as a daily on the first round of combat in a day means the rest of the day you can't even access your at will capabilities. A Wizard who blows his spell on round 1 can still use his cantrips) 
I disagree.  First, if choices come at the expense of static bonuses, they can easily result in an equally powerful (or indeed less powerful) build.  Second, I have no problem with intelligent use of options resulting in a more effective character, it's "no-brainer" use of options resulting in a more powerful character that I have a problem with.  What I'm suggesting is that a "simple" fighter be equally as powerful as a "complex" fighter who always uses his encounter spike on the last round of combat (and his daily spike on the last round of the last day of combat, if daily spikes exist).  Thus, a player who uses his at a time that is better (to knock off the big bad before he has a chance to finish his spell, to save himself from going under, what have you) ends up more effective than a "simple" fighter, while a player who uses his at a bad time (blowing his daily spike on the first round of the first encounter of the day) ends up worse. 

Third, your comparison to the wizard is inapposite.  Of course a wizard who doesn't use his major spells will be less powerful than one who does.  But a player who doesn't want to bother with daily spells shouldn't be playing a wizard.  I think WotC is going to have a problem with saying that a player who doesn't want to bother with daily resources shouldn't be playing a fighter.  An option needs to be there so that a fighter who wants to play simple can be more or less on par with a fighter who wants daily and encounter resources.  The same needs not be said for the wizard (or, if it does, then an at-will only wizard build needs to be created that is on par with the standard vancian one).  Will there be a margin of error?  Sure.  But that doesn't mean every effort shouldn't be made to minimize the disparity.
I argue simple doesnt mean "not different" =  classes are supposed to be be quite different than one another so having a higher crit chance or higher crit damage or both is perfectly acceptable as a feature to offset the climactic choices that heroic exertion and sacrifice can give.

 
Third, I'm not sure the benefits of increased criticals are going to scale with the benefits of extra spiking from extra CS dice, especially if expending dice multiplies the whole pool (which, having run the numbers, I am no longer in favor of, the spikes are just too ridiculous at higher levels).  That means increasing the chance to crit with level, which could well result in critting way more often than is reasonable, and forcing similar power inflations on other classes. 
Cut out daily spikes and multiply only dice expended, and the scaling matches pretty well, though. 



My first presented concept was I believe actually encounter balanced not just encounter limited (I think subequent ideas are more daily empowered.) 

 Though admittedly I didnt enumerate on a daily concept  I would work backwards from the critical hits.... 

Somebody using the concepts of heroic exertion and sacrifice might even not get critical hits ... in effect their heroic exertion and heroic sacrefice is how they get crits, but I prefer the simple fighter get more extreme critical. They are coin sides.


  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

So how come the Fighter gets 'tired' and no other classes don't?

And really, all this means is that if this were in game, no Fighter player would use it as written.  In fact, most players would likely conveniently forget that there's a cost to use these powers. 
So how come the Fighter gets 'tired' and no other classes don't?  


How come spell casters are amnesiacs? Every class is different. 

Dont want to win the fight faster by pulling a climactic move a little later in the battle?  Well thats sounds odd.

Some have been arguing it could be too potent in fact arguing the simple fighter needs climactic ability as compensation. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."