Oblivion Ring and Show And Tell

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Say my opponent casts Show And Tell. I decide to put in Oblivion Ring. Is my Oblivion Ring able to target whatever my opponent puts in (assuming non-land), or does the timing not work? Specifically thinking of cards such as Omniscience and Emrakul, The Aeons Torn.

Thanks.
Yes it triggers when it enters the battlefield, it won't be put on the stack until after the show and tell has completly resolved and your opponent has choosen what to put on the battlefield.  When the oblivion ring's trigger is put on the stack and a target needs to be choosen the card your opponent choose would already be on the battlefield and can be choosen as a target.

DCI Level 2 Judge

Rockford, Illinois

Correct me if I'm wrong, but an even if it was an Aura, it could be attached to what the opponents puts into play since the choice is made as they both enter the battlefield.


303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player’s control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn’t specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura’s enchant ability and any other applicable effects.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but an even if it was an Aura, it could be attached to what the opponents puts into play since the choice is made as they both enter the battlefield.




Actually that isn't correct.  The aura doesn't enter the battlefield then attach to an object.  The aura would attach to an object as it's entering the battlefield, so the object has to exist before the aura would be put onto the battlefield, which the card the other player is putting down does not.  It's similar to the way if you put a clone and another creature onto the battlefield at the same time, the clone couldn't copy that creature because it doesn't exist on the battlefield at the time the clone would copy it. 

DCI Level 2 Judge

Rockford, Illinois

The aura doesn't enter the battlefield then attach to an object.

I know.
The aura would attach to an object as it's entering the battlefield

I know.
so the object has to exist before the aura would be put onto the battlefield

Why? As you just said, the aura attaches as it enters, so why does the object the aura will attach to have to exist before that? I just read the whole replacement effect section, and I didn't see anything about looking back or choosing ahead of time.
It's similar to the way if you put a [c]clone[/C] and another creature onto the battlefield at the same time, the clone couldn't copy that creature

I recognize that this is the same, and I recognize that you're right because what you sayis confirmed by a ruling on Clone, but please explain *why* it works as you say.
because the decision what it attaches to has to be made as it enters
and at that point the potential "target" doesn't exist yet

303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player’s control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn’t specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura’s enchant ability and any other applicable effects.


a card not yet on the battlefield is simply not a legal object

proud member of the 2011 community team
because the decision what it attaches to has to be made as it enters
and at that point the potential "target" doesn't exist yet

But it does exist. That's why the abilities to two Ally creatures entering the battlefield simultaneously triggers twice each. They see each other as they enter, so why doesn't this aura?
that's a completely different scenario
for the Ally to trigger it has to exist on the battlefield, so of course both Allies are on the battlefield to trigger
proud member of the 2011 community team
Quote Segoth:

"The aura doesn't enter the battlefield then attach to an object."

It attaches as it enters the field, which is also when the thing to enchant is picked. So, using your own words,

For the [Aura] to [pick object and attach], it has to exist on the battlefield, so of course the [Aura and the thing to enchant] are on the battlefield.

For the [Aura] to [pick object and attach], it has to exist on the battlefield, so of course the [Aura and the thing to enchant] are on the battlefield.

no

303.4g If an Aura is entering the battlefield and there is no legal object or player for it to enchant, the Aura remains in its current zone

proud member of the 2011 community team
I don't see how that relates to anything. Nothing you/I said depends on whether there are other things that can be enchanted or not.
if the Aura can't attach to the object (because it doesn't exist yet) it can't enter the battlefield
on the other hand Allies can enter the battlefield just fine even if something shut down their trigger
proud member of the 2011 community team
if the Aura can't attach to the object (because it doesn't exist yet)

...is totally irrelevant. You're suppose to be explaining why it can't attach. I know what happens if it can't.

Getting back on track, which of the following do you think is false?

  1. A put-on-the-field Aura attaches as it enters the battelfield.

  2. A put-on-the-field Aura decides what to attach to as it enters the battelfield.

  3. An Aura card can only be attached if it's on the battlefield.

  4. An Aura card is always attached when it's on the battlefield. (If nothing happens to that to which it's attached.)

4. is wrong, because that can happen, and it will simply be moved to the graveyard as a SBA

the Aura can't attach to the non-existant object because it doesn't exist
why is this so hard to understand?

it doesn't matter that it will exist the same time the Aura becomes a permanent, that is still too late


since you brought up ETB triggers, they work completely different
for them to trigger the event has to already have happened
"hey, did [trigger condition] happen? then let's put [trigger effect] on the stack"
proud member of the 2011 community team
4. is wrong, because that can happen, and it will simply be moved to the graveyard as a SBA

Yeah, I already corrected that. That's not happening here.

the Aura can't attach to the non-existant object because it doesn't exist

But it does exist unless 1, 2 or 3 is wrong. Are 1, 2 or 3 wrong?

it doesn't exist at this point:


303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player’s control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn’t specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura’s enchant ability and any other applicable effects.


it doesn't matter that it will exist shortly after

proud member of the 2011 community team
Why aren't you answering my question?

Do auras attach before entering the battlefield?
If not, do auras attach as the enter the battlefield?
If yes to last question, for put-on-the-battlefield auras, do you pick what to attach to as they enter the battefield?
If yes to last question, given that the other object enters the battlefield at the same time as the aura, it exists when you decide what to attach the aura to.


it doesn't matter when it attaches, you choose "as it enters the battlefield"
proud member of the 2011 community team
Why aren't you answering my question?

Do auras attach before entering the battlefield?


No, but you choose what it will attach to before it does.
 
Enigma is correct. You cannot choose to enchant any permanent entering at the same time as the Aura.

Look at the ruling for Faith's Reward.
You choose what an Aura card put onto the battlefield this way will enchant. You can't choose any permanent cards entering the battlefield at the same time as that Aura. If there's nothing legal for the Aura to enchant, it stays in the graveyard.

Why aren't you answering my question?

Do auras attach before entering the battlefield?


No, but you choose what it will attach to before it does.
 

Both things happen as they enter the battlefield, so how can it happen at different times?

Enigma is correct. You cannot choose to enchant any permanent entering at the same time as the Aura.

I know. My question is "why?" I'm hoping for something better than "a ruling says so".
Enigma is correct. You cannot choose to enchant any permanent entering at the same time as the Aura.

I know. My question is "why?"

because "as it enters the battlefield" means it is not yet on the battlefield
proud member of the 2011 community team
Enigma is correct. You cannot choose to enchant any permanent entering at the same time as the Aura.

I know. My question is "why?"

This is the wrong forum for that.
My question is "why?"

because "as it enters the battlefield" means it is not yet on the battlefield

So you're saying the aura attaches before it enters the battlefield?

no
but you CHOOSE what it attaches to before it enters the battlefield
proud member of the 2011 community team
Enigma is correct. You cannot choose to enchant any permanent entering at the same time as the Aura.

I know. My question is "why?" I'm hoping for something better than "a ruling says so".



If you think there is a hole in the rules, please raise the issue at RT&T.
 
So you're saying the aura attaches before it enters the battlefield?




You choose what it's attached to before it enters the battlefield, the same way for a clone you choose what it is copying before it enters the battlefield.  "entering the battlefiend" means it's not on the battlefield yet, so you choose what it would attach itself too in the zone it's moving from, in this case the choice is made when it's still in the players hand.

DCI Level 2 Judge

Rockford, Illinois

no
but you CHOOSE what it attaches to before it enters the battlefield

So you must think that auras attach at some time other than "as they enter the battlefield."

Enigma is correct. You cannot choose to enchant any permanent entering at the same time as the Aura.

I know. My question is "why?"

This is the wrong forum for that.

For asking what rules cover something???

If you think there is a hole in the rules, please raise the issue at RT&T.

Whether I do or not depends on Enigma's next answer.
no
but you CHOOSE what it attaches to before it enters the battlefield

So you must think that auras attach at some time other than "as they enter the battlefield."




That's correct.  "as it enters the battlefield" means it is not on the battlefield yet.  The aura attaches when it is on the battlefield.  It goes from unattached in whatever previous zone it was in to attached on the battlefield.  The choice of what it will attach to is made before it enters the battlefield when it is still in the previous zone.
 
no
but you CHOOSE what it attaches to before it enters the battlefield

So you must think that auras attach at some time other than "as they enter the battlefield."

not actually sure if "enter the battlefield attached" counts as "attach as they enter the battlefield"

but in any case, the rules tell you to choose "as it enters the battlefield", it doesn't really matter when it actually attaches
proud member of the 2011 community team
no
but you CHOOSE what it attaches to before it enters the battlefield

So you must think that auras attach at some time other than "as they enter the battlefield."




That's correct.  "as it enters the battlefield" means it is not on the battlefield yet.
 


No, it doesn't. "As" means "at the same time as". "The same time" and "a different time" are not, in fact, interchangeable concepts, being more what is known as "exact opposites".

For whatever it's worth, I have long thought that a strict reading of the rules supported the view Ikegami is pushing at least as well as the one he's arguing against - I just have an easier time taking "this is a well-established ruling" as an answer. Seems to me he's right that the other arguments normally given for the established interpretation don't hold water.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
no
but you CHOOSE what it attaches to before it enters the battlefield

So you must think that auras attach at some time other than "as they enter the battlefield."

That's correct.

Thanks. No hole then. ( This was premise #1, for those following at home ;) )

[ack, Just saw Jeff's comment!]
While things are changing zones, they still count as being in the zone they are moving from, correct?  Which is why Golgari Grave-Troll counts himself when calculating the number of +1/+1 counters he gets when he enters the battlefield from the gy.

I would think this would support the idea that the aura can't choose the permanent entering the battlefield with it since they both count as still being in the zone they are moving from.
In general, before you can perform an action, you have to determine exactly what that action will be.

Consider the ability granted by Pulmonic Sliver: "If this permanent would be put into a graveyard, you may put it on top of its owner's library instead."  If something would cause a Sliver to die, you don't move it off the battlefield, then decide on its actual destination.  You have to choose between "battlefield to graveyard" and "battlefield to top of owner's library" before the move, i.e., while it is still on the battlefield.

For something like a resolving Holy Strength, this determination is easy: "Put it onto the battlefield attached to the spell's target."  For a Holy Strength being brought back by Replenish, you have to make a decision before it enters the battlefield, i.e., while it is still in the graveyard.  Creatures already on the battlefield are valid choices, while the Lucent Liminid that will be on the battlefield Real Soon Now is not.

Likewise, for a Golgari Grave-Troll entering the battlefield, you have to determine the number of +1/+1 counters before it enters the battlefield; you don't put it on the battlefield then tally and add counters.  If it is entering from the graveyard, this becomes part of the count.

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

Warp World: notice how enchantments are treated differently... it's most probably, among other things, because of auras.

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The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

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Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
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While things are changing zones, they still count as being in the zone they are moving from, correct?

No, there's no concept of transit in Magic. It's here, then it's there.
No, there's no concept of transit in Magic. It's here, then it's there.


Which means that if a determination can't be deferred until after arrival (e.g., the attachee for an Aura, the number of +1/+1 counters for a Golgari Grave-Troll), that determination must be made before the movement.

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

What's the rule # for that?
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