If Mindstorms uses Act of Treason/Dominus/Manticore on a Nightmare....

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Does the Nightmare die since Mindtorms doesn't have any swamps?
Yes
This is good to know, very good to know.
Here's the rule of thumb for these kinds of things: if a permanent says "you" or "your" then it's talking to the controller.
Well this means that naturally, mind control and followed footsteps in Aura Servants are also useless against Nightmare. Obviously its always been useless against rite of replication, clone, body double, etc as well... Does Mind Control kill it as well?



Yes, Mind Control kills it, as does Act of Treason, which is why they're actually both fantastic cards against a Nightmare in my opinion. Plently of 2HG pairs include Talrand or Jace, so could bounce the Nightmare back, or have enchantment control to return it by destroying Mind Control. In those circumstances, killing it can preferable in the long run.



I suppose it works out better for Liliana because if I casted a grave titan it is getting mind controlled....I'd rather you murder my nightmare with a mind control then take my creature completely and use it against me--forcing me to kill my own creature. Despite that I am definitely killing a nightmare when it ETBs if I have either an act of treason or a mind control....Can't let a card like that stay on the battlefield if you can help it...

Sometimes you have to clone/replicate a legendary creature to kill it....I remeber being so pissed when  I learned the legendary rule...I think I learned it replicating a teammate's Griselbrand in 2HG....LOL he was noticeably upset with me... :-o
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Does the Nightmare die since Mindtorms doesn't have any swamps?



I believe this question belongs in the "Is it supposed to work like this?" thread and this topic should be locked.

Does the Nightmare die since Mindtorms doesn't have any swamps?



I believe this question belongs in the "Is it supposed to work like this?" thread and this topic should be locked.




Technically you are correct. And that's what's been happening to threads like this. Having said that, I haven't agreed with locking all the loose threads. There's too many posts to view them all.

When I see a post with a title like this (and I only view page 1 of the forums) that I'm interested in, I'm happy. I hadn't thought about using Act of Treason that way.

If no one is interested in a thread, it will fall to the bottom as it won't receive many comments. That's just my opinion.

So you are correct, fair is fair and that's probably where it should go. But I'm kinda glad this one didn't get policed before I saw it.

  
Does the Nightmare die since Mindtorms doesn't have any swamps?



I believe this question belongs in the "Is it supposed to work like this?" thread and this topic should be locked.


  Why don't both just stop?
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Typically this is the kind of question that should go in the "Is it supposed to work like this?" thread, but I'm happy to leave the thread going granted everyone stays polite towards one another. 

 I don't want to throw off the discussion from killabkilledb's original post, but I have a couple notes to add:


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Sorry for the interruption!

Sean Gibbons

Associate Community Manager

Official MTG Twitter: @Wizards_Magic Official MTGO Twitter: @MagicOnline

I think this thread has served its purpose and has shed some new light on an issue for a couple of people who otherwise don't follow every discussion posted  in the "is it supposed to work like this" thread . To avoid future complications I would just close it.

Nothing more to really discuss here.
I think putting all the separate 'Should it work like this?' issues into one thread quite cumbersome. Perhaps it needs it's own Forum with individual threads like these.
I think putting all the separate 'Should it work like this?' issues into one thread quite cumbersome. Perhaps it needs it's own Forum with individual threads like these.



Its a good thread but I know a lot of people don't post in there because you get a lot of new members coming in asking why their opponent didn't die (with an elderscale wurm on the board) so I don't follow along every post in there and this one is at least pertinent to one of the new DLC decks.....and that is why I made a new thread because dlc strategy for and against them is the new hotness right now...
I like the individual threads...
I like the individual threads...



So do I. I don't mind or care about them. I appreciate people posting new content.

I kind of see the point though that if every guest or member decides to create a new thread to showcase their specific deck build then forum would be inundated with deck discussions everywhere. Putting al or the majority of them in one major thread has some benfits. I just think the threads with deck discussions should be regulated more and whoever the OP is should be making a running guide of the deck builds included because you have to sift through 300 posts to find someone's build and you don't even know if its their most current......that is why I offered to include other user-builds into my 1v1 DLC thread so they don't get lost...

I agree with the theory behind one big thread like that for specific deck building discussion but I think the implementation and maintenance of those threads is wrong...
In theory I have thought of the Work Like This thread to be more geared toward not cluttering the bugs thread. As this thread is not pertainig to a possible bug, I think it's a valid OP. I had not considered doing that to Nightmare but now a new defensive possibility has been brought to my attention and I will be a better player for it.
My 2 cents.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain

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You know what I've got more issues. Whats up with the story in this game? The adverts said I was going to team up with Chandra and we were going to kick butt and chew bubblegum across the planes on a revenge campaign against some... guy she knew I guess? Who's Ramaz anyway? What do I get instead? I beat Chandra like 2 minutes in with a mono-green stompy thing Garruk gave me (why does he keep giving all these new planeswalkers his deck) and then I spent like 5 hours jumping from plane to plane picking up random nicknacks for her mantlepiece while she sits back back doing her nails or something. I was thrown in jail! I got hit by a Roil Storm twice! Do you know how many rats are on Ravnica, Chandra? All of them! All of the rats! All of the rats eating me!

Then we go kick her Ex's bearded-screaming-butt and what does she do to help? Nothing! She throws of the occasional fire ball and spends her time trying not to freeze to death. You should have worn pants Chandra. While we're on the subject what happened to your shoes? You had like Steelies on. Steelies are cool. Now your running around with stupid boots with like 5-inch heels? Thats not appropriate footware for Planeswalking! That's not appropriate footware for normal walking! At least Liliana is doing it for the whole 'evil is sexy' thing and can summon undead to carry her when she breaks her ankle. What are you going to do ride a Phoenix? Its made of fire! You'll fall right through! Man I should have gone Planeswalking with Liliana - yeah she'd crack my head open with a rock 5 minutes in and raise my corpse to serve her but at least we could have gone dancing!

Now with more original content and open bar!

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedevilwuster

I think putting all the separate 'Should it work like this?' issues into one thread quite cumbersome. Perhaps it needs it's own Forum with individual threads like these.



Well, there are forums for general discussion of Magic rather than discussion that is specific to DOTP.  The question posed by this thread is a general Magic question, not specific to DOTP.

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In theory I have thought of the Work Like This thread to be more geared toward not cluttering the bugs thread. As this thread is not pertainig to a possible bug, I think it's a valid OP. I had not considered doing that to Nightmare but now a new defensive possibility has been brought to my attention and I will be a better player for it. My 2 cents.



It's still not justified. I could open 100 different topics, each presenting stuff that a handful of people will not have thought about. If I did, I would probably be banned for spamming.

An easy solution would be to create one topic for surprising card interactions and leave it at that. I totally get that the intention is to attract as many views as possible, but that's no reason to create a new topic for every obvious bit of information. Moderate a newbie silencer and discuss these things in detail if you please, but do it in one place.
In theory I have thought of the Work Like This thread to be more geared toward not cluttering the bugs thread. As this thread is not pertainig to a possible bug, I think it's a valid OP. I had not considered doing that to Nightmare but now a new defensive possibility has been brought to my attention and I will be a better player for it. My 2 cents.



It's still not justified. I could open 100 different topics, each presenting stuff that a handful of people will not have thought about. If I did, I would probably be banned for spamming.

An easy solution would be to create one topic for surprising card interactions and leave it at that. I totally get that the intention is to attract as many views as possible, but that's no reason to create a new topic for every obvious bit of information. Moderate a newbie silencer and discuss these things in detail if you please, but do it in one place.

I agree with you Geo. I just don't think it is the crime of the century. I think the Is it supposed to work like this is a good place but should be stickied to the top if it isn't already.

Having said that, hoping everyone drops it now, I will start running both Acts of Treason, and reviewing your build, will try to maintain my preferred style of play while adding another Prophetic Bolt, you've sold me on it.  
In theory I have thought of the Work Like This thread to be more geared toward not cluttering the bugs thread. As this thread is not pertainig to a possible bug, I think it's a valid OP. I had not considered doing that to Nightmare but now a new defensive possibility has been brought to my attention and I will be a better player for it. My 2 cents.


Someone could make a new thread that says "If I Mind Control/Act of Treason my opponent's 5/5 Jace's Phantasm, does it stay a 5/5?" Or "If I Mind Control/Act of Treason my opponent's Scion of the Wild does it stay it's normal size or does it's P/T change according to the number of creatures I control?" or "If I Mind Control/Act of Treason my opponent's Sewer Nemesis does it still affect the player originally chosen or do I get to choose a new target?".

Does one consider all of these 'valid threads'?

The deck/Strategies threads for any of the decks featuring these cards (or the Mindstorms/Dream Puppets threads) are perfectly viable places for these questions. Whenever you make a post in a thread it goes to the top of the list, and all the deck strategies threads are literally three clicks away in the Useful Links sticky at the top of the page. Doing that is easier than making a new thread and will likely garner at least as much attention (as well as not being sidetracked by having it's validity called into question). 


Having said that, hoping everyone drops it now,


Like it or not, it's giong to come up every time someone makes a thread akin to one of the aforementioned questions.

It's still not justified. I could open 100 different topics, each presenting stuff that a handful of people will not have thought about. If I did, I would probably be banned for spamming.

An easy solution would be to create one topic for surprising card interactions and leave it at that. I totally get that the intention is to attract as many views as possible, but that's no reason to create a new topic for every obvious bit of information. Moderate a newbie silencer and discuss these things in detail if you please, but do it in one place.


Pretty much this.


You are still discussing this issue?
You are still discussing this issue?


The topic itself was completely resolved in the very first single-word response. What else is there to talk about?
If you're satisfied the topic has been discussed to completion have a mod lock it if you don't want people using this thread.
You are still discussing this issue?


The topic itself was completely resolved in the very first single-word response. What else is there to talk about?
If you're satisfied the topic has been discussed to completion have a mod lock it if you don't want people using this thread.



I don't care what you do. I have no ownership of this thread. You can post nudes of yourself in here for all I care. 

I already suggested it be locked since it serves no further purpose aside from enabling toddlers.
I can't see how anyone would not know this tbh.... I'd hate to see the people who post questions with obvious answers play magic irl. Probably get rotfs then come here and cry for more attention.
Avenger of Zendikar is not game... Got a question as to whether a card without shroud or hexproof is good? Answer is, dies to removal. "Control Slivers"
I can't see how anyone would not know this tbh.... I'd hate to see the people who post questions with obvious answers play magic irl. Probably get rotfs then come here and cry for more attention.



Clearly, your vision is limited then.

I can't see how anyone would not know this tbh.... I'd hate to see the people who post questions with obvious answers play magic irl. Probably get rotfs then come here and cry for more attention.



Clearly, you have at least a grade school reading comprehension.



Why yes, yes I do.
Avenger of Zendikar is not game... Got a question as to whether a card without shroud or hexproof is good? Answer is, dies to removal. "Control Slivers"
I can't see how anyone would not know this tbh.... I'd hate to see the people who post questions with obvious answers play magic irl. Probably get rotfs then come here and cry for more attention.



Clearly, you have at least a grade school reading comprehension.



Why yes, yes I do.



So when a sulfuric vortext says it does 2 damage to a player at the start of his/her upkeep, how is it possible for a person with 2 life to pause the timer when their land untaps and cast a spell burning me for the win when you can't cast a spell until your upkeep begins oh great guru of reading comprehension? This game has instances where the logial reading of a card does not make any sense in the common tongue, and it has a 300 page rulebook and its own nuanced language....In lieu of that, explain to me how there is something wrong with posting a thread on a magic forum and double checking something suspect it true. The only real problem here is your juvenile and silly response bent on stirring up trouble. You lack vision and see the word in black and white.
I can't see how anyone would not know this tbh.... I'd hate to see the people who post questions with obvious answers play magic irl. Probably get rotfs then come here and cry for more attention.



Clearly, you have at least a grade school reading comprehension.



Why yes, yes I do.



So when a sulfuric vortext says it does 2 damage to a player at the start of his/her upkeep, how is it possible for a person with 2 life to pause the timer when their land untaps and cast a spell burning me for the win when you can't cast a spell until your upkeep begins oh great guru of reading comprehension? This game has instances where the logial reading of a card does not make any sense in the common tongue, and it has a 300 page rulebook and its own nuanced language....In lieu of that, explain to me how there is something wrong with posting a thread on a magic forum and double checking something suspect it true. The only real problem here is your juvenile and silly response bent on stirring up trouble. You lack vision and see the word in black and white.



Are you seriously still whining about the ability to respond to upkeep triggers? Let it go, man.
So when a sulfuric vortext says it does 2 damage to a player at the start of his/her upkeep, how is it possible for a person with 2 life to pause the timer when their land untaps and cast a spell burning me for the win when you can't cast a spell until your upkeep begins oh great guru of reading comprehension? This game has instances where the logial reading of a card does not make any sense in the common tongue, and it has a 300 page rulebook and its own nuanced language....In lieu of that, explain to me how there is something wrong with posting a thread on a magic forum and double checking something suspect it true. The only real problem here is your juvenile and silly response bent on stirring up trouble. You lack vision and see the word in black and white.



For the same reason you can respond to any other spell. At the beginning of upkeep everything untaps and the ability triggers and goes on the stack.
So when a sulfuric vortext says it does 2 damage to a player at the start of his/her upkeep, how is it possible for a person with 2 life to pause the timer when their land untaps and cast a spell burning me for the win when you can't cast a spell until your upkeep begins oh great guru of reading comprehension? This game has instances where the logial reading of a card does not make any sense in the common tongue, and it has a 300 page rulebook and its own nuanced language....In lieu of that, explain to me how there is something wrong with posting a thread on a magic forum and double checking something suspect it true. The only real problem here is your juvenile and silly response bent on stirring up trouble. You lack vision and see the word in black and white.



For the same reason you can respond to any other spell. At the beginning of upkeep everything untaps and the ability triggers and goes on the stack.



Yeah, it's just like imprinting on a Panoptic Mirror at your own upkeep.

And about the mirror, If I imprint it at my own upkeep and someone uses instant speed artifact destruction in response, will I get to cast the spell once or not? I would lean towards no..... 
Panoptic Mirror's "cast for free" goes on the stack, you respond to that by Imprinting, someone responds by destroying it.  Last in, first out: Mirror gets destroyed, there's no longer anything to Imprint on, and the "cast for free" effect has no spell to cast.

If someone destroys it at upkeep when you have already Imprinted, of course, it would still cast the spell, because "Destroying an ability's source will not stop the ability from resolving".
You are still discussing this issue?


The topic itself was completely resolved in the very first single-word response. What else is there to talk about?
If you're satisfied the topic has been discussed to completion have a mod lock it if you don't want people using this thread.



I don't care what you do. I have no ownership of this thread. You can post nudes of yourself in here for all I care. 

I already suggested it be locked since it serves no further purpose aside from enabling toddlers.


Did you tell a mod to lock it? Or did you just yell at the air and hope one heard you?

Seriously, if you want it locked, just PM Sean or one of the ORCs you see every few posts and have them lock it. It's not that complicated.
Panoptic Mirror's "cast for free" goes on the stack, you respond to that by Imprinting, someone responds by destroying it.  Last in, first out: Mirror gets destroyed, there's no longer anything to Imprint on, and the "cast for free" effect has no spell to cast.

If someone destroys it at upkeep when you have already Imprinted, of course, it would still cast the spell, because "Destroying an ability's source will not stop the ability from resolving".



So if you happen to have instant speed removal, best to wait until upkeep and get a 2-for-1. Nice.
Panoptic Mirror's "cast for free" goes on the stack, you respond to that by Imprinting, someone responds by destroying it.  Last in, first out: Mirror gets destroyed, there's no longer anything to Imprint on, and the "cast for free" effect has no spell to cast.

If someone destroys it at upkeep when you have already Imprinted, of course, it would still cast the spell, because "Destroying an ability's source will not stop the ability from resolving".



I love this! www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=nkBRyrpz0qs... Awesome Drone ON!  I wish ya in my Planetside 2 outfit!
Panoptic Mirror's "cast for free" goes on the stack, you respond to that by Imprinting, someone responds by destroying it.  Last in, first out: Mirror gets destroyed, there's no longer anything to Imprint on, and the "cast for free" effect has no spell to cast.

If someone destroys it at upkeep when you have already Imprinted, of course, it would still cast the spell, because "Destroying an ability's source will not stop the ability from resolving".



I love this! www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=nkBRyrpz0qs... Awesome Drone ON!  I wish ya in my Planetside 2 outfit!



I have no idea what this means.

So when a sulfuric vortext says it does 2 damage to a player at the start of his/her upkeep, how is it possible for a person with 2 life to pause the timer when their land untaps and cast a spell burning me for the win when you can't cast a spell until your upkeep begins oh great guru of reading comprehension? This game has instances where the logial reading of a card does not make any sense in the common tongue, and it has a 300 page rulebook and its own nuanced language....In lieu of that, explain to me how there is something wrong with posting a thread on a magic forum and double checking something suspect it true. The only real problem here is your juvenile and silly response bent on stirring up trouble. You lack vision and see the word in black and white.



For the same reason you can respond to any other spell. At the beginning of upkeep everything untaps and the ability triggers and goes on the stack.



The point was not to start this discussion again. I was using it as a comparison in a discussion with Tripp who came in here and posted a snide remark and insinuated that I lacked remedial reading comprehension. I merely used this as an example to point out that the plain literal interpretation of something on a magic card is not the correct way to understand. Magic has a lot of subtle rules and its own nuanced language. Therefore, Tripp's vision is in fact limited and there is no harm or foul done in double checking something.

If you don't like this thread, I would seriously recommend putting me on ignore. Because there will probably be more like it in the future as issues pop up regarding DoTP 2013 that I would like to discuss. This is, after all, a forum for discussing said game. If discussions of said game actually bother you, it puzzles me as to why you are in fact here.
"The plain literal interpretation" always depends on the context. If it's the text on a card that is part of a game, it has to be read in the context of the game's rules. It's a common misconception that the card text does or should contain everything you need to know to play the game. If you know how the stack works, your literal interpretation of this card will be correct.
"My Day In The Forums"
A Play In One Act

(ME pulls up the forum.)

ME: "Act of Treason on a Nightmare?  That seems like a straightforward question.  Why is this thread so long?"

(ME reads 'Started by: killabkilledb')

ME: "Oh, that fellow with the 'Half Baked' name.  I'll bet dollars to doughnuts he's arguing passionately about the literal interpretation of game terminology again."

(ME opens last page of thread.)

ME: "High-five, me.  Another stunning prediction.  Let's grab a beer."
"The plain literal interpretation" always depends on the context. If it's the text on a card that is part of a game, it has to be read in the context of the game's rules. It's a common misconception that the card text does or should contain everything you need to know to play the game. If you know how the stack works, your literal interpretation of this card will be correct.



Ands it's possible one of these cards had a special rule. Where is the crime in double checking?
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