control in modern?

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so what should control decks look like after all these new cards from rtr look like in modern?

is there still going to be lots of counter spells running around. my group said there is prob no point in running things like spell pierce or mana leak in modern anymore because of cards like supreme verdict and abrupt decay, but those r only 2 cards. why do ppl think countrol is dead then? so u cant stop a board wipe or a really good destruction spell....thats 2 cards! u just side um out if tahts the case.
so what does this sites ppl think u/w/r , u/w , and RUG decks will all look like with all teh new Return to ravnica uncounterable removal?

Control isn't dead in Modern, it's just been on life support for a while.  Here's why:

#1:  The counter magic is very bad.  The best cheapest unconditional counter costs 3 mana (Dissipate).  The best hard counter are very narrow (Spell Snare).  Considering the format is a "turn 4" format (i.e. the game is over on turn 4), not being able to count on stopping the opponent's spells until you get to 3 mana is pretty bad.

#2:  Card selection is non-existent.  With Ponder, Preordain and Sensei's Divining Top banned, the ability to dig for the specific answer you need is pretty difficult.  That means control has to rely on more generic answers (which aren't available) or getting lucky (which is bad).

#3:  The threats are extremely varied.  You've got efficient creatures, difficult to deal with creatures, cheap planeswalkers and alternative angles of attack.  Control decks need to pack answers for each, and most often the best answers for one are dead to the others.

#4:  Card advantage is practically non-existent.  THere isn't a lot of ways to generate pure card advantage, so a control deck can't win by grinding out opposing decks very easily.

#5:  The fetch/shock manabase makes it difficult to stabilize.  If you're taking 3-8 damage just from making land drops, it becomes very hard to keep the aggressive decks from killing you.

All this means that the "control" decks often look more like tempo decks.

Uh, Cryptic Command does exist in modern and is 10000% better than dissipate.
Agreed, but it's not cheap.  I was trying to say that the cheapest unconditional counter was 3 mana, not necessarily that the best counter was 3 mana.  It was a bit confusing, which I have now corrected.
so i have been attempting to construct a u/w/r deck for this format. would more tempo cards such as vapor snag and cryptic command and maybe even the new azorius charm be good cards to run mainboard?

if u guys coould als check out my deck under modern deck tech ide appreciate it. :D 

 http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29423825/?sdb=1&pg=last#524989875
my only problem with spellsnare is just like mana leak it only stops for a few turns unless u remand or vapor snag back to there hand.  and it doesnt stop knight of the reliquary  delver of secrets geist of saint traft path to exile lightning bolt kitchen finks or restoration angel.  it stops tarmogoyf lightning helix snapcaster mage and mana leak

so i don't know why i shouldt run mana leak or spell pierce mainboard. becasue vapor snag maybe just as effective as remand but neither are permanent.

which counterspells should i run in my deck then? should certain ones be in sideboard?
also why dont ppl run negate in modern? if ppl r willing to run mana leak for 2 mana with a draw back why not run negate which is a hard counter that gets rid of everything except creatures. no draw back against spells and its hard. while spell pierce does it for 1 mana is an easier to pay mana leak

Spell Snare is NOT like Mana Leak.  Leak just "taxes" any spell, while Snare flat out counters only certain spells.  Spell Pierce is similar to Mana Leak in that it's just a taxing effect, not a hard counter.  And none of them are like Remand in the slightest.  Remand isn't a control card, it's very much a tempo card.

The reason more people don't run Negate is because it's fairly narrow.  Why leave up two mana for Negate just to have them slam a Tarmogoyf?  If it is every played, it's sideboard only against decks like Storm.

I think you're demonstrating a crucial lack of understanding about the different archetypes.  Vapor Snag is not valuable in the slightest to actual control decks.  It's not an answer to a problem, it's just a delaying tatic.  Snag is a great tempo card because it forces your opponent to make the same play again.  Tempo is valuable when your'e focusing on putting early pressure on the opponent (like with a Delver).  Control is important when you don't plan on providing a threat until later in the game.

As for cards a control deck should be running, it most certainly should be running Mana Leak, Remand and Spell Pierce (in that order) over Vapor Snag.  All of those counters help the deck establish a position where they can exhaust the opponent's resources before you run out of cards/life.  Vapor Snag does not accomplish this because you only spent a card to make the opponent spend more time (i.e. tempo).  Remand only trades 2 mana for their expensive spell, plus helps you dig though your deck.  Mana Leak often trades one-for-one, plus less of your mana (and can make them pause before playing their early aggressive cards).  Spell Pierce likely trades for a card if used correctly.

You should most definitely be running Cryptic Command.  I'd say that you shouldn't be running any other counterspells mainboard.  I would rather pack extra removal over marginal counters.

well in the deck im making im running 4 path to exile, 4 lightning bolt, and 4 ligthning helix. thats 12 remvovla spells. plus 3 snapcaster mages.

so i thought the next best thing would be to run counters. so what should my counterspell set list be? 3 mana leak 2 cryptic command 2 spell pierce and 2 remand?

i feel like i should add serum visions in for  better chance of flipped delvers
here is a rough scetch of the decklist before i posted questions here. where should i fit in the spells?

vapor snag or magma jet or spell snare
mana leak
remand
path to exile
lightning helix
lightning bolt
spell pierce
sword of war and peace

23 spells

snapcaster mage
geist of saint traft
restoration angel
kitchen finks
delver of secrets

14 creatures

celestial colonnade
hallowed fountain
steam vents
sacred foundry
island
plains
mountain
misty rainforest
scalding tarn
arid mesa
tectonic edge
bump
I feel control is very weak anymore after watching control almost become non existant in t2 the last year or so.

Unless your in a format where aggro decks to control and combo are equal a control deck is always going to be the weakest, Sure you will have some good matchups but mostly you will be 50/50.

Your deck is familure of restoration control and looks good.

I would point you to a primer but its on another site, sense modern came out primers here have kinda died.
I miss the old days.
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