The Tankvoker: An Invoker Build

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Warning: this build is bad and highly in-progress. I am working on it. Do not use it yet unless you want to be a bad invoker




Do you have trouble staying alive in battles? Do you get angry at your tank for not getting the job done? Are you tired of being the “Weak Guy” in battles and hiding behind everyone else in fear of dying? If you answered “yes” to any or all of those questions then this build is for you! By the time you reach the end of this build, you will have the knowledge to become a controller, leader and defender all wrapped up into one!



References


A_Man_In_Black’s Invoker Build (for various items)Player’s Handbook (feats), Player’s Handbook 2, Divine Power (powers and feats), A bunch of Dragon Magazines, Most was searched for on the compendium or the D&D Character Builder


Be Warned


This build only works well at the start of Paragon tier. If you are looking to start off as an Invoker, do not use this build.

Recommended Spells


ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS take Visions of Blood (Divine Power) as an at-will power. It is your very best friend as an invoker as it is an extremely versatile power for feat and item support.

Other than that, I would just suggest getting controller encounters and dailies and leader-like utility powers to be more helpful to your party. If you have any questions on what to get, just ask me or go to an invoker char-op guide. I won't write all of the attacks you will need here as this is only to show how to play the tankvoker, not the invoker in general.

Note: Don’t be afraid to take spells that are a lower level than you when you level up. The level 1 encounter spells are much stronger than the level 3 ones, and there are probably others as well.


Items



  • Staff of Ruin (accurate or defensive, I prefer accurate) with Siberys Shard of the Mage (Main Hand)

  • Aversion Staff (Off-Hand)

  • Staff of the Traveler - Lowest level, only take if your DM allows you to use teleport distance increasing items with it. You should be able to, but the DM might not agree

  • Helm of Able Defense - To increase your AC further

  • Armor of Dark Deeds - With whatever the best light armor you can get is, probably hide or leather

  • Antipathy Gloves - You can consult your DM about if adding an extra square of movement has an increased effect on difficult terrain. i.e. if needing to move 2 squares on difficult terrain would be increased to 4 with the gloves

  • Eladrin Ring of Passage - Again, only if your DM allows you to use it with the Staff of the Traveler

  • Incisive Dagger Wrist Razors - Higher level = longer teleport distance (only take if your DM allows you to count the Staff of the Traveler’s property as a power)

  • Cloak of Translocation – Again, only take if your DM allows you to count the Staff of the Traveler’s property as a power. This gives you extra AC and Reflex for teleporting.

  • Cloak of Distortion - If the Cloak of Translocation does not work as intended above, and possibly at Epic tier when the bonuses start to differentiate more

  • Mage’s Spiked Shield - You will have to check the spiked shield’s property constantly, as the rules say that if it is used as a weapon you gain the shield bonus and you don’t have to wear it on your arm, but it doesn’t say anything about needing to hold it

  • Belt of Vim/Diamond Cincture - To increase your fortitude

  • Eladrin Boots - Same as the Eladrin Ring of Passage

  • Dice of Auspicious Fortune – Good for securing the first hit or just getting out those bad rolls. Overall, these dice give you an exceptional boost when you need it most.

  • Eladrin Chain Shirt - Slotless AC bonus for wearing light armor? Yes please!




The items that are here are mainly used so that you can teleport at-will so that you can get through difficult terrain (which we will talk about later), and to make you harder to hit. The Cloak of Translocation requires you to teleport to gain it’s effect, but who says you can’t just spend a move action to teleport but not teleport out of your square? Nobody, that’s who. By doing this, you will add +2 to your AC and Reflex every turn that you spend a move action. If the Cloak of Translocation won’t work, you will still get a bonus to ranged defenses by taking the Cloak of Distortion. The Armor of Dark Deeds will grant you concealment if you have Combat Advantage against an enemy and you attack them. This Combat Advantage will be granted with feats. Next, the Aversion staff. This is very useful as Visions of Blood makes the enemy subject to an effect caused by you. This makes them take a -2 to all attacks against you. The Mage’s Spiked Shield also gives you a +1 shield bonus to AC. All of this together allows you to be a massive tank once you have hit a creature once and teleported.


Creating your Character


Starting Ability Scores (Before Racial Adjustments):You will want about 15/16 (depends on if you are allowed to have more than one Ability Score under 10 or not) as your Wisdom modifier as it is the most important for attacks, but you need to juggle a lot of Ability Scores for feats, armor and extra effects. You will want about 15 starting Dexterity for feat support and initiative. (You are going to be working towards 17 Dexterity, once you get that you can forget about it) You will want about 15 starting Intelligence if you are going for the Covenant of Preservation Invoker path. If not, 15 starting Constitution, but I would not recommend that as going with the Auspicious Birth background will work much better.

Race and Background: It really doesn’t matter what race you are I don't have a specific race chosen for this build. Just keep in mind that you are going to want to increase your Wisdom and Intelligence whenever you can, so you should probably choose a race with +2 to Wisdom and Intelligence. Be sure to take the Auspicious Birth background. It gives you a much needed health boost for when your enemies attack those pesky NAD’s


Feats


All of these feats are recommended in order to use this build to be a tank. Some accuracy feats are used because you are 90% reliant on hitting with Visions of Blood. If you are starting off with this build, I would suggest doing it in this order:

  • Power of Earth – Adding a slow to an already awesome feat compatible attack? Amazing!

  • Power of Madness - As long as you can find the god of both the domain of Madness and Earth. This adds on to psychic lock (which we will talk about later) Power of Madness and Earth can't be used at the same time!

  • Vicious Advantage – Allows you to get combat advantage every time you use your At-Will power

  • Defensive Advantage - +2 to defenses when you hit? Yes!

  • Invoker Defense – Not as good as Defensive Advantage in this build, but extra AC nonetheless

  • Staff Expertise – You need to hit to get those defensive effects

  • Improved Initiative – You need to hit first to be the tank

  • Psychic Lock – Awesome debuff to attacks that also works with allies

  • Superior Implement Training (Accurate Staff or Defensive Staff) – I would recommend Accurate Staff so that you can hit more, but Defensive Staff is good as well.

  • Improved Defenses - You are going kind of overkill on the AC anyways, so why not upgrade those other defenses?

  • Toughness – More meat if they get past the shield (meat shield? get it? Haha... ok...)

  • Durable – Chances are, your DM will be focusing you a lot and you will need a lot of healz. This lets you get moar healz than before.

  • Multiclass Paladin: Squire of Righteousness - You probably can’t get it now, so take it whenever you get the chance. It makes you more of a defender than a selfish tank which I think is useful.

  • Quick Draw - Optional, only if you need to juggle your items around

  • Coordinated Explosion - Visions of blood is ally friendly. If you can get them to be in your blast, it will be very helpful

  • Epic Resurgence – Since you are pretty much always going to be using AOE powers, you will have a high chance of critting

  • Invoked Devastation - Very useful for Coordinated explosion and mass slowing in general

  • Just Sacrifice (Paladin Multiclass) – If you aren’t being hit, you might as well help your allies as much as you can. Also works well with Durable.

  • Superior Initiative – Highly recommended to retrain improved for this. You can’t afford to go last at this level because the DM probably hates you right now.




Basically, this build is solely based off of using your Visions of Blood at-will power. With Power of Earth, this power slows the target(s). Vicious Advantage builds off of this by making slowed targets grant Combat Advantage. Defensive Advantage builds off of that by giving you +2 to AC against them, along with your Armor of Dark Deeds which grants concealment, making everything have a -2 to hit you. Invoker defense builds off of any invoker power, giving you another +2 bonus to AC. Since Visions of Blood is a Fear power, Psychic lock makes the target take a -2 penalty to all attacks. Altogether, this would mean that you would have the equivalent of +12 to AC, + 8 to Reflex and +6 to Fortitude and Will.
Note: These feats should be taken, for the most part, in this order.



Paragon Tier


I would strongly recommend taking the Keeper of the Nine Paragon Path. Creating difficult terrain around you whenever you use a close power means that slowed enemies cannot move to other squares beside you with your antipathy gloves. With the right positioning, one Visions of Blood can lock down the opponent in one place.


Epic Destiny


The best Epic Destiny I have found for a defender/leader/controller is the Planeshaper. It gives you some extra Intelligence and allows you to use an encounter power twice per encounter (which is useful for healing/shielding powers). The level 24 feature allows you to remove people from play to give your party some time to think or to allow them to focus another monster easier. The thing that I am sold on, though, is the level 30 feature. It pretty much gives you 3 or more AMAZING dailies that you can use AT WILL as a MINOR ACTION! This will be amazing for any kind of controller or defender, as you can create walls, difficult terrain or simply damage everybody within 10 squares of you which is amazing for popping those minions that get in your way. (It isn’t ally friendly but this can be fixed with a Battle Standard of the Fiery Legion and/or fire/frost resistance items) Also, this feature can be used to clear the rubble you have created with the Keeper of the Nine feature in case it is starting to annoy your allies. Overall, I think that this Epic Destiny is AWESOME and pretty overpowered at level 30.


Bonuses Breakdown


Paragon Tier



  • Aversion Staff + Armor of Dark Deeds + Cloak of Translocation & Staff of the Traveler + Helm of Able Defense


= (equivalent) +8 AC, +8 Ref., +6 Fort., +6 Will.

  • Defensive Advantage + Invoker Defense + Psychic Lock + Power of Madness


= (equivalent) +7 AC, +3 Ref., +3 Fort., +3 Will.

  • Mage’s Spiked Shield + Tembo Hide Armor + Elven Chain Shirt (Paragon) + 15 (10 + half lvl) + Int. Modifier


= 29 AC.

  • 29 AC + 6 (not including concealment from armor) + 4 (Other values that give AC)


= 39 AC and -5 to hit for enemies (assuming they are beside you, otherwise it is -5 against you and -3 against others) and 37 AC with no penalty if you hit an enemy, but you did not hit the person who is attacking you.

  • So, if you hit every round, you will have at least 37 AC and at most the equivalent of 45 AC.

  • If an Elder Green Dragon (Level 19 Solo Skirmisher) were to attack you, it would have to roll at least a 19 to hit you! This is pretty amazing seeing as it is 8 levels higher than you.





Epic Tier



  • Items/feats that don’t change with level


= (equivalent) +13 AC, +9 Ref., +7 Fort., +7 Will.

  • Cloak of translocation: +2 to AC and Ref + Elven Chain: +3 to AC. Every time you TP or Cloak of Distortion: +5 to all defenses against ranged attacks. I would recommend cloak of distortion if you are having trouble with defending against ranged attacks and/or you feel like you are going kind of overkill on AC against one person.

  • All your regular armor bonuses along


with Roc Hide armor = 38 AC orMekillot Hide Armor = 36 AC.With the Int. Boost from your epic destiny & leveling up through Paragon tier: +2. So, at Epic Tier you will have40 AC with Roc Hide and 38 with Mekillot Hide.

  • With Roc Hide: 40 AC + 10 + 2 + 3 (Cloak of Translocation & Chain Shirt)


= 58 AC or 56 AC with Mekillot Hide

  • This is more AC as The Old Man with the Canaries (a.k.a. Bahamut, a level 36 Solo Soldier). With all of these bonuses, he would have to roll at least a 16 in order to hit you. Seeing as You could have gotten even more expensive items for your defenses, the fact that this calculation is for a level 21, you should have no trouble at all forcing your way safely through hordes of baddies without taking any damage.


Note: I used Bahamut as an example because he is the highest level creature in the game: Level 36 to be precise. That is a whopping 15 levels higher than the character used in this example!


Strategy


Your Strategy


Basically, you are going to want to do anything in your power to go first and hit. After that, your enemies should pretty much always be granting Combat Advantage so you will have an easier time hitting. If you miss everybody on an attack, you are going to want to teleport away to keep a safe distance. You are going to want to do the same thing if you are thinking of casting any encounter or daily standard action powers as you will lose your buff to AC and can be beaten down very quickly. Your Paragon Tier Keeper of the Nine path is VERY important. Combined with the slow from Visions of Blood, you can effectively lock down your opponents and keep them in one spot. With Antipathy Gloves, you can trap the enemy between a wall and actually completely stop movement, allowing for strikers to burst the enemy down quite effectively. Another tactic is to “sandwich” the enemy between you and a striker. By doing this, the enemy will have to try to walk through your rubble and provoke opportunity attacks. The best way to trap the opponent, though, is to hit them with your blast, move a square back and let somebody else push/pull/slide them into the centre of the difficult terrain you have created. All in all, I have tried this build out with my character and it works exceptionally well. Since the DM will hate you, they will try to focus you, giving the rest of your team a break from the damage and allowing for an easy encounter.

If your DM doesn't focus you at all, you can still use this build. You just need to have better positioning.

Your ability to lock down enemies is very much increased when level 30 has been reached. With the Planeshaper Epic Destiny you can simply make your own walls for your enemies to get stuck at by putting a wall behind them and Difficult terrain-slowing them. The rest of the build still works as-is, though.Note: I haven't reached ED yet with my Invoker. I know that there are many more flying/teleporting creatures than paragon tier so this build may not be as effective at that time.


Party Strategy


Just a starting note with this section: every role is still usually needed with a tankvoker in the party, make sure to pay attention to how useful everybody is. For example: you may not need a defender anymore, in which case I would recommend replacing the them with another striker if you are the party is pwning, a controller if you... well... aren't controlling well enough and a healer/defender if your DM has found a way to cut through your defenses or your striker is being focused.


Defender


As a defender Your biggest job with a tankvoker in the party is to make sure that they do not get disabled/attacked before their shield goes up. After that, your job is still going to be the same as before: protect the party and try to absorb damage. The only difference is that you have somebody else to share the damage with you and also "punish" marks.


Leader


As a leader/healer your main priority is still to defend the striker and don't get hit. Your safest position will be directly behind the Tankvoker when they are focusing one person as he will be surrounded with difficult terrain. Make sure to run if the Tankvoker's shield goes down, as he will offer little protection to you (Imagine hiding behind a wizard that is in melee range of a monster!). Another good idea (or bad depending on the circumstances) is to sit directly in the middle of the tankvoker's difficult terrain circle. The reason why this depends on the circumstances is because even though it is more difficult for an enemy to move beside you, once they do you will not be able to shift to get away.


Controller


Your biggest task is to move enemies into the middle of the Tankvoker's rubble field. After that, You are going to prioritize either focusing on keeping other baddies at bay first, reducing enemy's stats second and finally dealing damage. You will be very useful in battles with a large amounts of people as, despite the fact that the Tankvoker has many AOE spells, this build is more geared towards focusing a small group of enemies. The common rule for me is to always have 1 pulling/pushing/sliding power and 1 defense reducing/disabling power. (Note: Slowing is useful, but doesn't count as a disable in this example)My favourite controller to aid a Tankvoker is a Wizard mainly die to Howling Wall/Beguiling strands and Illusory Ambush/Phantasmal Assault wish Psychic Lock.


Striker


Alright, it's your time to shine! With the tankvoker's buffs and auras the enemy should have about -5 to attack rolls against you at all times, so you should be fine against said enemy. In a party with a Tankvoker, I would not suggest playing an assassin-type character (one that needs to be alone) unless you have another Striker on your team. In one of my parties, I cannot choose the Tankvoker as our Ranger does much more damage if he is fighting alone, so try to play some sort of team-oriented striker that can make use of being with a tank.

On the other hand, if you already have that type of striker, go crazy! Play whoever you want! Just be sure that your healer is around to back you up.


Highlights


This build allows you to become an insanely insane tank/controller/leader by exploiting the hell out of untyped bonuses and Visions of Blood’s feat/item support. With the Keeper of the Nine Paragon Path you can further control the battlefield by slowing enemies while on difficult terrain, stopping movement. I allowed for some personalization in this build as, even though there are feats you need to take, you can choose whatever powers you want as long as you have visions of blood. By doing this, it is very easy to switch between the tank and the controller/leader role by teleporting away from the battlefield and casting the other at-will spell you chose or by teleporting in and spamming Visions of Blood.


Important:


Always keep in mind that the whole idea of D&D isn't about killing virtual monsters, it is about having fun. If your character takes the fun out of the game then you should definitely consider a different build, even if it isn't as good. If your build makes the other party members feel useless, also change your build. In any case, if this build is causing tension or taking the fun out of the game, just forget it completely!


Possible improvements



  • More Attack roll bonuses to secure your defenses?

  • Multiclass/hybrid to cleric instead to be more of a Leader?

  • Create a hybrid Warden for for defender attacks & more health?

  • Make use of other classes’ fear/slowing powers to allow you to be more of a controller?

  • Create a hybrid for marks/mark punishment?

  • Focus less on defenses and more on damage to become a “one man band” of sorts?





Limitations



  • This build only really works if you can hit the target with Visions of Blood, so it does not provide very much defense against ranged attacks unless you take the cloak of distortion.

  • Although you gain a bonus to all defenses from some things, you still have fairly weak NAD’s compared to your AC

  • If the enemy manages to get through your armor, you are fairly squishy. Ongoing damage is VERY BAD for you

  • This build only starts to work well in Paragon Tier. Before that, you should probably build for a regular squishy controlly invoker


DM Counters



  • Use flying/teleporting monsters in order to actually be able to move :P

  • Use a lot of minions or squishy monsters and spread them out on the board along with the more difficult creatures. If the invoker doesn't know that they are minions, he/she will lose a lot of his/her defense after killing them.

  • On the contrary, be sure to put more than one high damage dealer in an encounter. The invoker will be forced to attack one while the other one can attack him/her a bit easier.

  • Find monsters that attack Fortitude. Even though this is a tank build, the character’s fortitude is still a bit on the weak side.

  • Stun/Daze the character at the beginning of the encounter. This character does not have very high defenses when they cannot use attack powers.

  • Find monsters that have high initiative. It is very important to chip away at their health before their shield pops.

  • Ongoing damage is a killer when looking at this build. It is a good way to get through the armor and slowly eat away at their health.

  • Use attacks that have effects even if they miss. The Tankvoker has high defenses but still lacks in health.

  • Focus other characters! Your biggest weapon in this game is peer pressure. The party may get angry at their Tankvoker for too much armor and not enough control. Eventually, they might just give in and change their build.





Note to people who go on to D&D Homebrew


You may see the exact same post on the Character Optimization link in D&D Homebrew. Just so that you know that was made by me, so I did not steal it from anywhere else. I just thought that that was the official D&D wiki page (I am stupid, I know), so I moved it here once I realized that I was on the wrong D&D wiki.
Please comment and let me know what you think! I will answer any questions and appreciate constructive criticizm
The build has some issues...

First off, you should put up a build that demonstrates choices as you make them, when you make them. Character Builder output or a list of feats in the level order taken and then powers in the level order. What stats you're using doing standard point buy. Because it sounds as if you're recommending starting off with a 15 Dex/Wis/Int while wearing Hide Armor. Even if you boost Int/Wis via racial choice, you're still going to be slightly behind the typical curve of a normal Invoker, both on AC and to-hit - and you're saying the racial choice won't matter?

A lot of the mods that make you a 'tank' are only showing up at paragon tier. You're not going to want to be marching into melee at 1st level, slowing opponents. As you'll die. You don't actually gain combat advantage until you hit a slowed opponent again, so that's going to slow the triggering of options. You could be a controller doing mass effects and instead, you're wading into combat. 

But most important of all - what exactly is the downside to someone simply provoking an opportunity attack and firing at whoever they want to shoot at, rather than take the various penalties? You're not going to do all that much and for the most part, you're just protecting yourself against attacks, not your friends. And because you don't have a significant melee basic(if even one), you're just going to possibly keep them from moving away from you.
You cannot use both Power of Madness and Power of Earth on the same power (at any one given time anyway).  Not because its hard to find a deity of both Earth and Madness, but because you can only augment an at-will with one domain feat.
Ours is a world where people don't know what they want, and are willing to go through hell to get it. -Don Marquis
The build has some issues...

First off, you should put up a build that demonstrates choices as you make them, when you make them. Character Builder output or a list of feats in the level order taken and then powers in the level order. What stats you're using doing standard point buy. Because it sounds as if you're recommending starting off with a 15 Dex/Wis/Int while wearing Hide Armor. Even if you boost Int/Wis via racial choice, you're still going to be slightly behind the typical curve of a normal Invoker, both on AC and to-hit - and you're saying the racial choice won't matter?

A lot of the mods that make you a 'tank' are only showing up at paragon tier. You're not going to want to be marching into melee at 1st level, slowing opponents. As you'll die. You don't actually gain combat advantage until you hit a slowed opponent again, so that's going to slow the triggering of options. You could be a controller doing mass effects and instead, you're wading into combat. 

But most important of all - what exactly is the downside to someone simply provoking an opportunity attack and firing at whoever they want to shoot at, rather than take the various penalties? You're not going to do all that much and for the most part, you're just protecting yourself against attacks, not your friends. And because you don't have a significant melee basic(if even one), you're just going to possibly keep them from moving away from you.

Thank you for giving me some advice on my format and some flaws, but I would like to point out a few things: First, yes, this build is not good pre-Paragon, and I should have noted that, but once you have reached paragon tier, the Keeper of the Nine Paragon Path will create difficult terrain every time you use your at-will blast. If you are within melee range this creates difficult terrain on the place that the monster is standing. If you do this, and then teleport to the other side of the monster, your Antipathy Gloves will completely stop the monster from moving unless they run (or maybe not depending on the DM's Definition of the effect). The shield being a gradual thing is a minor setback, but it is still very useful before you hit the enemy with CA. I mean, you still have an insane amount of AC. What you said about "simply provoking an oppurtunity attack and firing at whoever they want to shoot at", this is true, but if you have a striker with you it really shouldn't be a problem as this means that they can use an oppurtunity attack to deal a great deal of damage.  With the Staff of the Traveler + Eladrin Boots and other things (if the DM allows you to add tp distance from staff of the traveler's effect), if the enemy manages to move you can teleport up to them and repeat the process (but usually they shouldn't be able to move away). It is imparative that your striker positions himself well as well since he needs to help you deny movement as well, and if he is in the right position he will usually take a -5 to attack rolls against the striker or a -3 if he isn't beside you. 
In addition, there were some communication errors when you were reading the post, It was probably my fault as I have a very hard time explaining things in comprehensive words . First of all, though I did say it did not matter what race I chose, I also say that you would be wanting to increase your Intellegence and Wisdom whenever possible. I thought that that would imply that I don't have any set awesome race, but you would want one with a +2 to Intelligence and Wisdom. The only reason that you need Dexterity in this build is for feat support. I am pretty sure it was to gain the effect from Vicious Advantage, but I may be wrong. That is why I said that you needed to get your DEX to 17 and then you could forget about it.
In this build you need to coordinate your team very well, and if you do the build is very OP, if you are bad at positioning and coordination though, everything that you said there would be correct. 
Thank you for commenting on this build. I have a little bit of work to do on clarifying 
You cannot use both Power of Madness and Power of Earth on the same power (at any one given time anyway).  Not because its hard to find a deity of both Earth and Madness, but because you can only augment an at-will with one domain feat.

Ok, I didn't know that. Thanks!
The difficult terrain is nearly irrelevant at paragon. Most creatures will either be large and have a reach of 2,  fly, or teleport.

Also boosting Int/Wis at every point as well as going dex is some serious investment and will be deteremential to everything you do. 
The difficult terrain is nearly irrelevant at paragon. Most creatures will either be large and have a reach of 2,  fly, or teleport.

Also boosting Int/Wis at every point as well as going dex is some serious investment and will be deteremential to everything you do. 

I do agree that the investment is huge, but it is the only way to make the build work. You need to have the dexterity for Vicious Advantage, as most of the effects build off of each other. I will add in the post that if you have a party of 5 you should just do the normal thing, but I made this build because my party is quite small, and this seemed to give you the ability to play 2 roles at once fairly effectively. My only argument against that is that you will have combat advantage after you hit once, even though that sounds kind of stupid.

Now, on to the other point. I did not take into account giant creatures, but it would be a minimal difference in the way the build works as if you were opposite of the difficult terrain on the other side of a large creature it would still be slowed and antipathy gloves should prevent it from shifting around while you are beside it. Monsters with reach 2 are slightly irrelivant as you would not wait for them to come to you, but you would go to them. If they can't move than reach doesn't really matter all that much. Now, flying and teleporting are a major setback (which is why I put them in the DM counters section), it is pretty much a troll to everybody, but if you slow the enemy they will not get very far each turn. The only thing you could do about that is maybe get somebody to grab it, but that is a bit unrealistic for most characters. Again, for teleportation there is not much you can do other than make the striker buy a feyslaughter weapon.
 
I do use this build, but I haven't for long, so I will learn new things as I go. It is HIGHLY experimental and I am not saying that it is better at all that a normal controller build. All I am saying is that it is an interesting and unique idea. 
If you do this, and then teleport to the other side of the monster, your Antipathy Gloves will completely stop the monster from moving unless they run (or maybe not depending on the DM's Definition of the effect). The shield being a gradual thing is a minor setback, but it is still very useful before you hit the enemy with CA. I mean, you still have an insane amount of AC. What you said about "simply provoking an oppurtunity attack and firing at whoever they want to shoot at", this is true, but if you have a striker with you it really shouldn't be a problem as this means that they can use an oppurtunity attack to deal a great deal of damage.



What? If the striker is next to the monster, the monster bashes the striker. They're at a mere -2 to hit from Psychic Lock if you hit.

And hitting is a big problem for your build. Many Invokers will have a 20 Wis for an additional +1.5 to hit. What happens in Epic is just crazy bad for your build as you don't raise your Wisdom. Compared to a 20 Wis Destined Scion who takes the same options you do, you're going to be a -3 to hit from levels 21-27 and then a -4 from 28-30.

When you're a -4 to hit to hit a target, you lose the ability to control when you miss. And you're missing far more often than a typical Invoker.

In this build you need to coordinate your team very well, and if you do the build is very OP, if you are bad at positioning and coordination though, everything that you said there would be correct. 



Honestly, I just don't see the power of the build unless your DM is truly spectacularly bad at positioning and refusing to use MM3 damage expressions. All he needs to do is spread the monsters out and not have 7x7 rooms for you to work in. That ought to do the trick...

Also, you note flying/teleporting as an abberation. They're not.
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If you do this, and then teleport to the other side of the monster, your Antipathy Gloves will completely stop the monster from moving unless they run (or maybe not depending on the DM's Definition of the effect). The shield being a gradual thing is a minor setback, but it is still very useful before you hit the enemy with CA. I mean, you still have an insane amount of AC. What you said about "simply provoking an oppurtunity attack and firing at whoever they want to shoot at", this is true, but if you have a striker with you it really shouldn't be a problem as this means that they can use an oppurtunity attack to deal a great deal of damage.



What? If the striker is next to the monster, the monster bashes the striker. They're at a mere -2 to hit from Psychic Lock if you hit.

And hitting is a big problem for your build. Many Invokers will have a 20 Wis for an additional +1.5 to hit. What happens in Epic is just crazy bad for your build as you don't raise your Wisdom. Compared to a 20 Wis Destined Scion who takes the same options you do, you're going to be a -3 to hit from levels 21-27 and then a -4 from 28-30.

When you're a -4 to hit to hit a target, you lose the ability to control when you miss. And you're missing far more often than a typical Invoker.

In this build you need to coordinate your team very well, and if you do the build is very OP, if you are bad at positioning and coordination though, everything that you said there would be correct. 



Honestly, I just don't see the power of the build unless your DM is truly spectacularly bad at positioning and refusing to use MM3 damage expressions. All he needs to do is spread the monsters out and not have 7x7 rooms for you to work in. That ought to do the trick...


It isn't just a -2. You have to take into account the paladin multiclass. That takes another -2 away from the attack roll there are also other feats and things that I forgot to mention that can help even more (fey beast tamer w/ displacer beast, for example). Another point: when an enemy is marked, isn't that usually just a -2 to attack rolls anyways? I know that there are powers that do other things but your powers are quite strong as well. Also, being an invoker, you have your encounters to help your striker with tempo hp and other things. Another point: a lot of strikers attack alone, so what makes you think that they are going to die just because you are around?

-edit: rest of the post was cut off
My recommendations for starting stats could be tweaked quite a bit. There are quite a few problems with it right now but come on, this is my first forum post and this build mostly revolves around the needs of my party. Now don't go all crazy yet. I haven't answered the second part. I am going to tweak the ED, I was used to playing a wizard and only using intelligence pretty much. If I do what the next post says and just drop vicious advantage for the extra Wis boost, would that make more sense? I am realizing a bit right now that the amount of AC in this build is quite overkill. 
The only reason that you need Dexterity in this build is for feat support. I am pretty sure it was to gain the effect from Vicious Advantage, but I may be wrong. That is why I said that you needed to get your DEX to 17 and then you could forget about it.

If DEX is just for Defensive Advantage, then you'll have a stronger build by dropping it and readjusting your stats.   You don't need the extra two AC that badly.

You've got a lot of synergies going on here, and parts of this could make a cool build.  But as other have said, altogether it might struggle a bit in play.  I can say right now that if I was DMing, I'd just do my best to ignore you and focus on the rest of the party.

When you're a defender, you need to give the enemy two bad choices - attack me (and possibly miss due to my defenses) or attack someone else (and suffer punishment).  You don't have any punishment.  Even with psychic lock and your defender aura, your giving a -4 to hit someone else.  This sounds good until you look at the penalties/statuses that a "regular" invoker would be applying with encounter powers and the like.  Compared to complete action denial, -4 to hit doesn't look that good.
seriously? A 1/enc paladin mark that does what, 10 damage at epic, and 7 in paragon? Thats a joke. And only against one enemy.

Edit: No striker attacks alone. That would be moronic. You focus fire, its pretty much a core precept of the game. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
No, real defenders have much more going on then the -2 from a mark.

Saying the build starts in Paragon but has no way of dealing with flying, teleporting, multi-square shifts (also very common, skirmishers have these all the time), or people ignoring you and taking the OA is a non-starter. Flying and teleporting are everywhere in Paragon and Epic, an encounter that has creatures that can do neither basically doesn't exist past 16.

Your generically optimized Fighter stops movement with his OAs. So nothing is going to take the OA and walk away. Multi-square shifts? His MBA prones, so when you shift away (triggering CC) the shift stops. Plus he gets a free shift. So getting away from him is difficult. He gets stuff next to him with stuff like CaGI, which includes flying creatures (and proning flying creatures sucks for them, so they won't risk the OA or the CC). The only thing they don't deal well with is teleporting, which applies kind of universally, but at least they can use a Feyslaughter Weapon.
seriously? A 1/enc paladin mark that does what, 10 damage at epic, and 7 in paragon? Thats a joke. And only against one enemy.

Edit: No striker attacks alone. That would be moronic. You focus fire, its pretty much a core precept of the game. 

Did you read what the MC does? Because that was a bit off. It is an at-will aura that makes enemies have a -2 to attacks against your allies.
seriously? A 1/enc paladin mark that does what, 10 damage at epic, and 7 in paragon? Thats a joke. And only against one enemy.

Edit: No striker attacks alone. That would be moronic. You focus fire, its pretty much a core precept of the game. 

Did you read what the MC does? Because that was a bit off. It is an at-will aura that makes enemies have a -2 to attacks against your allies.



While they're adjacent to you...which they have no trouble ignoring...
So yeah. even more useless than the paladin mark. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
The only reason that you need Dexterity in this build is for feat support. I am pretty sure it was to gain the effect from Vicious Advantage, but I may be wrong. That is why I said that you needed to get your DEX to 17 and then you could forget about it.

If DEX is just for Defensive Advantage, then you'll have a stronger build by dropping it and readjusting your stats.   You don't need the extra two AC that badly.

You've got a lot of synergies going on here, and parts of this could make a cool build.  But as other have said, altogether it might struggle a bit in play.  I can say right now that if I was DMing, I'd just do my best to ignore you and focus on the rest of the party.

When you're a defender, you need to give the enemy two bad choices - attack me (and possibly miss due to my defenses) or attack someone else (and suffer punishment).  You don't have any punishment.  Even with psychic lock and your defender aura, your giving a -4 to hit someone else.  This sounds good until you look at the penalties/statuses that a "regular" invoker would be applying with encounter powers and the like.  Compared to complete action denial, -4 to hit doesn't look that good.

Thanks for saying that is is an interesting build. That is about the only compliment I have gotten so far about this. I agree with your comment about just ignoring vicious advantage. It is well worth the extra wisdom, 2 feat slots and the armor slot. The only thing I don't like is that you would actually be losing technically 4 to defenses from the armor of dark deeds. Everything else you say is completely true, though. I need to do a bit more research on how to make this work better. Create a hybrid, perhaps? The biggest thing I am missing is a way to punish marks a lot
seriously? A 1/enc paladin mark that does what, 10 damage at epic, and 7 in paragon? Thats a joke. And only against one enemy.

Edit: No striker attacks alone. That would be moronic. You focus fire, its pretty much a core precept of the game. 

Did you read what the MC does? Because that was a bit off. It is an at-will aura that makes enemies have a -2 to attacks against your allies.



While they're adjacent to you...which they have no trouble ignoring...
So yeah. even more useless than the paladin mark. 

As the post says: with keeper of the nine you can create difficult terrain while slowing with your at-wills. Add in antipathy gloves and with the right positioning your enemy cannot move.
Why are you using at-wills as an invoker? You have arguably the best controlling enconter powers in the game. And DT is a bit of a joke in, as Alcestis said, most encounters 16+
 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
No, real defenders have much more going on then the -2 from a mark.

Saying the build starts in Paragon but has no way of dealing with flying, teleporting, multi-square shifts (also very common, skirmishers have these all the time), or people ignoring you and taking the OA is a non-starter. Flying and teleporting are everywhere in Paragon and Epic, an encounter that has creatures that can do neither basically doesn't exist past 16.

Your generically optimized Fighter stops movement with his OAs. So nothing is going to take the OA and walk away. Multi-square shifts? His MBA prones, so when you shift away (triggering CC) the shift stops. Plus he gets a free shift. So getting away from him is difficult. He gets stuff next to him with stuff like CaGI, which includes flying creatures (and proning flying creatures sucks for them, so they won't risk the OA or the CC). The only thing they don't deal well with is teleporting, which applies kind of universally, but at least they can use a Feyslaughter Weapon.

I see your point. I am thinking now of possibly changing the build to a hybrid character instead, also I have seen some feats that deal with shifting, one of the dragonmarks, I am pretty sure, lets you follow an enemy if they shift. I need something to add to that, though
so you're running after people to put them in DT, at which point, your aura becomes close to useless, and you're running around....to what end?
I fail to see the point in all of this besides a bad Kot9 build. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Why are you using at-wills as an invoker? You have arguably the best controlling enconter powers in the game. And DT is a bit of a joke in, as Alcestis said, most encounters 16+
 

Phew, I have some things to put on my build. I mainly didn't mention the encounters because when you use your encounters you lose some effects (slowing/difficult terrain), because this is build is suggesting things that make you more defenderish, not suggesting every single aspect of an invoker that you should use, and also because this post isn't finished yet. I may end up with an entire character optimization page or just keep these suggestions as a reference for players who want to shake things up a bit.
What makes you defenderish? An aura you can't use effectively, no OA, no punishment of shifts, flight, or teleport. You aren't defenderish.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
so you're running after people to put them in DT, at which point, your aura becomes close to useless, and you're running around....to what end?
I fail to see the point in all of this besides a bad Kot9 build. 

DT + slow = can only move 1 square (I know there are many exceptions, I am just trying to keep this example simple). Then visions of blood + psychic lock + aura = -4 to attack rolls and visions of blood reduces their defense by 1 point. Add in terrain advantage for the striker and your striker has CA regardless of if you hit
This build does nearly everything you are trying to, except better.  The only thing that really can be said is that your build tries to do too many things, does them all poorly, and ultimately fails as a controller.  You don't hit, you don't control.  You don't control, your presence is a detriment to the party as you could have just not shown up and the XP budget for the encounter would be lower.
What makes you defenderish? An aura you can't use effectively, no OA, no punishment of shifts, flight, or teleport. You aren't defenderish.

Ok, that was a misworded thing, sorry, but I am tired right now. You are a tanky controller that grants people CA and stops movement. Better?
1. CA is ridiculously easy to get,
2. your simplicity belies the number of movement options characters have when your build comes online. So an attempt to "simplify" is ignoring the meta of the game.
3. Few monsters are going to stay adjacent, especially the most pontent kind. 
4. By using your at-wills, you're wasting actions getting this combo going that monsters ignore...and you are therefore useless

Show us an ACTUAL example turn, as opposed to at-will example. Because spamming at-wills in paragon on an invoker is pointless, but your build seems to revolve around it. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
You realize the difficult terrain is only adjacent to you, right? Getting away from you, even slowed, is just shift away+charge. Actually that is the real indicator you aren't even close to being a defender, if you have no way of dealing with shift+charge you aren't any better then any meleer with a decent MBA.
You realize the difficult terrain is only adjacent to you, right? Getting away from you, even slowed, is just shift away+charge. Actually that is the real indicator you aren't even close to being a defender, if you have no way of dealing with shift+charge you aren't any better then any meleer with a decent MBA.



And this build doesn't even have an MBA...
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
What makes you defenderish? An aura you can't use effectively, no OA, no punishment of shifts, flight, or teleport. You aren't defenderish.

Ok, that was a misworded thing, sorry, but I am tired right now. You are a tanky controller that grants people CA and stops movement. Better?



Oh so like a fighter, but with less HP and no real defesive utility to speak of.  Interesting ploy, DMs might hold back just in case you do something useful, but then the jokes on them when you don't!!  Tricky!
As I said before, you don't stop movement, and CA is ridiculously easy to get. At which point...you're just there.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
You realize the difficult terrain is only adjacent to you, right? Getting away from you, even slowed, is just shift away+charge. Actually that is the real indicator you aren't even close to being a defender, if you have no way of dealing with shift+charge you aren't any better then any meleer with a decent MBA.

I need to get a picture to demonstrate. You create difficult terrain around you. Then you teleport to the opposite side of them and they can't really move due to antipathy gloves. If you can get another attack in before they move away, they are locked in further and you don't have to worry about positioning as much. Alright, I am tired, I am going to leave the rest of the comments until tomorrow. 
Why would they want to move next to you...you're a waste of their time...
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
As I said before, you don't stop movement, and CA is ridiculously easy to get. At which point...you're just there.

If you don't like it then don't use it. There are some pretty stupid builds out there. I just wanted to see how much defense I could get as an invoker.
You're claiming this build is the future of controlling. We're showing how its worse than a host of other controllers.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
As I said before, you don't stop movement, and CA is ridiculously easy to get. At which point...you're just there.

If you don't like it then don't use it. There are some pretty stupid builds out there. I just wanted to see how much defense I could get as an invoker.

And they'd get just as much criticism in CharOp. Also highest defenses is kind of a "solved" thing (both highest period and highest for a given class).

Teleporting around putting difficult terrain everywhere just... isn't a good idea. It isn't enemies only, for one thing, so you're hampering allies, and I understand what you are doing just fine. It is just bad. By the time it works, enemies can deal with it.

And actually, since you didn't post a build a full build I missed this but Zelink said it, do you even have something you can use on an OA? Because otherwise stuff can literally just walk away from you. Slowed or not, they can ignore you completely with no threat of reprisal. A controller or a defender who can be ignored is just bad. You're supposedly both. You're still one PC so I am not sure if that makes the build twice as bad, but you really need to think about the fact that only positive comment you've gotten is that the build has some nice ideas but overall is bad.
You're claiming this build is the future of controlling. We're showing how its worse than a host of other controllers.

I italicized the word trolling unintentionally but I guess it was fitting. it was supposed to be experimental, I didn't realize some of the flaws in it, I had a cool idea about sort of being a jack of all trades (keep in mind that our party is quite small), I wanted to see if people liked it. once I finally got the main stuff done I got excited and added that title. There. I took it out. Happy now?
You are not a striker, controller, leader, or defender. An Invoker MC Cleric Morninglord is better in all capacities.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
As I said before, you don't stop movement, and CA is ridiculously easy to get. At which point...you're just there.

If you don't like it then don't use it. There are some pretty stupid builds out there. I just wanted to see how much defense I could get as an invoker.

And they'd get just as much criticism in CharOp. Also highest defenses is kind of a "solved" thing (both highest period and highest for a given class).

Teleporting around putting difficult terrain everywhere just... isn't a good idea. It isn't enemies only, for one thing, so you're hampering allies, and I understand what you are doing just fine. It is just bad. By the time it works, enemies can deal with it.

And actually, since you didn't post a build a full build I missed this but Zelink said it, do you even have something you can use on an OA? Because otherwise stuff can literally just walk away from you. Slowed or not, they can ignore you completely with no threat of reprisal. A controller or a defender who can be ignored is just bad. You're supposedly both. You're still one PC so I am not sure if that makes the build twice as bad, but you really need to think about the fact that only positive comment you've gotten is that the build has some nice ideas but overall is bad.

Hmm, I didn't even realize that I put this under CharOp. I'll move it ASAP
You're claiming this build is the future of controlling. We're showing how its worse than a host of other controllers.

I italicized the word trolling unintentionally but I guess it was fitting. it was supposed to be experimental, I didn't realize some of the flaws in it, I had a cool idea about sort of being a jack of all trades (keep in mind that our party is quite small), I wanted to see if people liked it. once I finally got the main stuff done I got excited and added that title. There. I took it out. Happy now?

4e rewards specialization. Out of thousands of CharOp builds that are actually good and passed muster (with just as much criticism leveled at them, I might add, CharOp has high standards for builds, especially ones that make grand claims as to what they can do) there are a very small handful that can effectively fill two roles in an optimized party. Filling two roles in a standard party is quite easy, because you can just be some variety of highly optimized hybrid.

But, and as the third person to say this you might want to listen, this build doesn't really achieve even baseline for an optimized party in any role. Much less two of them.
Cool pic bro!

I mean, you're making bogus assumptions about what your defenses are going to be given you only get those bonuses against targets you hit, and not only aren't you hitting many creatures, you aren't even hitting often. Trying to claim Staff of the Traveler's Propery is a Power is just flat wrong. Not to mention the problems with trying to claim Psychic Lock and creating DT qualifying as even a bad defender. So I really hope you don't post this build elsewhere, since not only are you not as optimized for defenses as possible, but are outright lying, anyone who uses this build is going to have a bad time.

But cool pic.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.