Dragon's Eye View: Goblinoids, Take Two

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A while back, James chatted about the goblinoids, and I showcased the goblin. To say he wasn't warmly received would be an understatement. I'd like to let you in on a secret now.


Dragon's Eye View: Goblinoids, Take Two

Discuss this article here. 

All around helpful simian

No images.
No images.



I thought I was the only one who couldn't see them.

Kind of hard to rate a picture when it doesn't show up. 

A list of CharOp Handbooks I'm currently updating:

Heart of the Dragon: A Dragonborn's Handbook

Infernal Wrath: A Tiefling's Handbook

Well... I like the descriptions of the broken image at least :/
I very much like this description of goblinoids.
Especially the serious tone over them, rather than a comical one.
Sure with I could see them.  Sneaky little guys - hard to spot....



(image links still broken)


Carl
I suspect the images won't be fixed until someone wakes up and gets to work in Renton.

 

Kalex the Omen 
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Concerning "Default" Rules
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Even without seeing them, I'll ask, why must the Goblin absolutely positively not be GREEN?
Is this a legal spat with GW? 
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
Why should they be green?

They're fine as they're described. 
I imagine the colouration is more of a distinction further from orcs than anything, but as I play most goblins in campaigns have had a huge variation in colour so it doesnt bother me a great deal (and there were green goblins FAR before GW got their grubby mits on them)
Even without seeing them, I'll ask, why must the Goblin absolutely positively not be GREEN?
Is this a legal spat with GW? 



Its because the 1e Goblin “range from yellow through dull orange to brick red in skin color”.

In other words, the Goblin was orange.

Hopefully the yellowish side of “ocre” can nod to the possibility of the “Green Goblin”. Dusky grayish-yellow shades actually look as if olive green.

Making the base color yellow, means the complexion can range from (olive) green to (tan) orange, which to me sounds about right.
I thought Orcs were gray-ish in D&D.

Regardless, there is no reason they should be green anymore than a reason they should be ochre or blue nosed. Or Hobs should be Sienna for that matter.
 
It seemed arbitrary, and in some ways needlessly limiting, especially if colouration was going to be used to denote tribes, as has been the case in some settings. 

I was just curious why the absolute avoidance of green.
 But how dare I question anything that comes down from on high. Obviously it is in a perfected state and I should just keep my curiousity to myself, lest the WotC colour coding authority bring me in for re-education.
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
why must the Goblin absolutely positively not be GREEN? 


Because that's how Goblins have always been depicted. Why fix something that's not broken ? :P

D&D Goblins have never really been green. From the various editions Monster Manual:

1E: ''Goblins range from yellow through dull orange to brick red in skin color.''
2E: ''Their skin colors range from yellow through any shade of orange to a deep red.''
3E: ''A goblin skin color range from yellow through any shade of orange to a deep red.''
4E: ''A member of the goblin species has skin of yellow, orange, or red, often shading to brown.''

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

why must the Goblin absolutely positively not be GREEN? 


Because that's how Goblins have always been depicted. Why fix something that's not broken ? :P

D&D Goblins have never really been green. From the various editions Monster Manual:

1E: ''Goblins range from yellow through dull orange to brick red in skin color.''
2E: ''Their skin colors range from yellow through any shade of orange to a deep red.''
3E: ''A goblin skin color range from yellow through any shade of orange to a deep red.''
4E: ''A member of the goblin species has skin of yellow, orange, or red, often shading to brown.''



You're just bowing to the monster police, the color-wheel overlords, the lords of ludicrous!

;) 

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Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

I was just curious why the absolute avoidance of green.


Because goblins in a lot of other fantasy settings have been green (most notably Warcraft), and they want to emphasize the distinction.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Although I liked the original goblin concept sketch, I have to admit I really like these!  Gave them a Rocks! vote.

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Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

Does anyone else find the goblin concept art a little too humanoid, like a halfling or a gnome? He just doesn't look monstrous or like a savage little killer. I think older editions nailed this one, particularly with art from the "Axe of the Dwarvish Lords" adventure:
 
Art is up. Descriptions seem fine, except for the nose color thing. Only the Bugbear should have differently colored nose.

About the art,
1. The Bugbear has the smallest ears in the picture even though the description says they have the largest.
2. Large ears and elongated head make the Goblin look too much like the WoW Goblin.
3. Don't like the eyes and eyebrows on all of them, makes them look almost East Asian.
4. Sideburns make the hobgoblin look like Teen Wolf.
5. And can we turn down the cheekbones. Looks like someone cranked those to 11.
 
Does anyone else find the goblin concept art a little too humanoid, like a halfling or a gnome? He just doesn't look monstrous or like a savage little killer. I think older editions nailed this one, particularly with art from the "Axe of the Dwarvish Lords" adventure:



Totally not a fan of this at all!

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Concerning Player Rules Bias
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
Concerning "Default" Rules
Kalex_the_Omen wrote:
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.

I am in love with the hobgoblin design. I want to play one right now! The bugbear is pretty nice, and I really dig the goblin.
The "Axe Of The Dwarvish Lords" goblin looks like Gollums crazy cousin, not a goblin.

I really like the art now posted for the goblinoids, although I have to agree with above comments that the Bugbear has smaller ears than described.

I like the color too.
Much better from my perspective. 

I like the goblin.

I think the hobgoblin is a little too tall.

The bugbear is too skinny and his snout needs to protrude a bit. I'd never describe the monster they drew as bear like. They look much more like what I'd describe as an ogre, except for that face. 
Although I liked the original goblin concept sketch, I have to admit I really like these!  Gave them a Rocks! vote.


+1
I really like but...

The goblin is a wee bit too tough. They should be like the 13 or old you talked of. A tough preteen or young teen and a little of the skinny side. Muscular but skinny like anime boys.

Hobgoblins are mostly prefer. The armor is great. Like a step behind elves and human but civilized and order. Their fear are too human though. Maybe bigger eyes?

Hobgoblins are great too. Need more hair though and a little more hunch

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Much better from my perspective. 

I like the goblin.

I think the hobgoblin is a little too tall.

The bugbear is too skinny and his snout needs to protrude a bit. I'd never describe the monster they drew as bear like. They look much more like what I'd describe as an ogre, except for that face. 



I love the Goblin.

I like the Hobgoblin appearing with physical stature.

There isnt much they can do with the “bear” thing. LOL! Theres just no way to make a *bear* look dexterous! They said, the dark nose is what gets them called “bear”, a nickname, and called it a day. Genius. The nose shape also seems to inspire the goblinish nose for all of them. Fantastic approach. Im impressed.



I really like but... The goblin is a wee bit too tough. They should be like the 13 or old you talked of. A tough preteen or young teen and a little of the skinny side. Muscular but skinny like anime boys.

The earlier Goblin was way way way too much like the Kobold: runty, weak, dexterous, shifty, sneaky, silly, comic relief, subterranean, wild, swarming, nocturnal, cutting, and so on. I am satisfied this vision of Goblin breaks away from this.

The Goblin is now a formidible threat − feel like adventurers can come across them in the Feywild. You can believe reallife people feared them. Sure, theyl sometimes have a goofy mischievious grin, but think twice before interfering with their amusement.

Love it.
The "Axe Of The Dwarvish Lords" goblin looks like Gollums crazy cousin, not a goblin.

LOL! Gollums crazy undead cousin.

I think this is a great redesign. It reminds me of the drawing in Werewolf the Apocalypse where is shows the transition to different forms. These all look like transitional forms of Schindehette, whose normal form is the bugbear. (LOL) You can clearly see they are related and they each embody a different tier of intelligence, strength and dexterity. 

I think the bugbear looks great. He might just be on the lean side of the average bugbear. There should be notable differences between individuals. They aren't all clones produced by a queen.

I think it's important to make D&D goblins their own identifiable thing. Unique to the setting. If they followed the lead of Kryptonian_Scion's proposed image, they would run up against the Pathfinder goblins, and I don't think we want that.

Good work. 
About the pictures.

The bugbear has got the best nose I have seen. The best D&D bugbear design. It is the right way. He is strong and ferocius, but he doesn´t look a little ogre nor a big hobgoblin, he is enoughly different. 

I imagine hobgoblins like face of ape or gorilla. It is a good picture, a great work by artist, but hobgobling´s nose is too big. (I like the idea of describing them like Magia or  Yakuza boss mixed with Spartans)

About goblin, is on the three best D&D goblin pictures I have seen (together the one from 3.5 Monster Manual and Blue, goblins subrace from Expanded Psionic Handbook). I suposse some goblin subrace could be ape-like face, like from 3.5. 

---

I like the almost-vampire goblyns from Ravenloft (Gollum with fangs, or the little brother of Count Olok from the 1922 Nofteratu movie). I could be a future goblin subrace. dwarf henchmen of lord vampire like the Dwergis from Van Helsing 2004 movie)

Why not a future goblin subrace like a twisted version of tinker gnomes from Dragonlance? Today goblins are popular in some fantasy worlds with steampunks elements. 

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

I imagine hobgoblins like face of ape or gorilla. It is a good picture, a great work by artist, but hobgobling´s nose is too big. (I like the idea of describing them like Magia or  Yakuza boss mixed with Spartans).

But if the Hobgoblin has a flat “ape” nose ... how does it look different from an Orc or Half-Orc?
When I imagine a goblin's figure I see one of a preteen human or a thinner young teen.

Whereas a bugbear is Prime Shaq. Dwight Howard's body but hairy. NBA centers.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Art is up. Descriptions seem fine, except for the nose color thing. Only the Bugbear should have differently colored nose.

About the art,
1. The Bugbear has the smallest ears in the picture even though the description says they have the largest.
2. Large ears and elongated head make the Goblin look too much like the WoW Goblin.
3. Don't like the eyes and eyebrows on all of them, makes them look almost East Asian.
4. Sideburns make the hobgoblin look like Teen Wolf.
5. And can we turn down the cheekbones. Looks like someone cranked those to 11.
 



I have 5 responses; three serious, and two silly.

1. Agree!

2. Don't agree at all. They are hairy with flat snout-like noses. The only thing similar is the proportions though the feet and hands on these guys are not comically over-sized. Also, the World of Warcraft (TM) goblin looks too much like the Games Workshop (TM) goblin. I think that kind of goblin is pretty much burned into most gamers minds as "iconic goblin" and could be considered the first knee-jerk design someone would draw if you asked them what a goblin looked like. I think in this area D&D needs to break away from tradition and find their own ground to make their voice stand out.

3. I really don't get the eyebrow reference. If they looked like anything I would say Vulcan eyebrows. Are you trying to say Japanese Samurai? The helmet is kind of the give-away clue to their thought process here and might be a hint at the kind of culture they envision for Hob-goblins. Not that they are supplanting any potential East Asian style cultures in the game world, merely that their cultures have influenced each other at some point.

4. What do you have against Werewolf's who try to better their lives by getting a High-school education?

5. Cheek bones are 9 tops. I think Nigel would agree.
I imagine hobgoblins like face of ape or gorilla. It is a good picture, a great work by artist, but hobgobling´s nose is too big. (I like the idea of describing them like Magia or  Yakuza boss mixed with Spartans).

But if the Hobgoblin has a flat “ape” nose ... how does it look different from an Orc or Half-Orc?


I like this feral snout. You can tell they live by their sense of smell. I think they should get a bonus to detecting ambush if the characters don't attempt to disguise their sent.

Did they show orcs yet? Should they go back to the pig snout or stick with tiny nostrils on flat face? My favorite orcs are the ones designed by Rackham Miniatures which are very much like gorillas with big tusks and less hair. Especially the later designs with a Mongolian/Himalayan style to their clothing. Their mouths and teeth got much bigger and looked less ape-like. This is another area where they need to distinguish themselves from the Games Workshop style orc that is so prevalent in fantasy art.

Do you think the design team will be a bit constrained in their redesign of the orc due to the presence of the half-orc? I hope they aren't thinking, 'Oh, no one would believe a human would make a baby with that!' I don't want them to be prettified/humanticized. Remember the 3rd edition version of a half-orc? Talk about ick! They should be totally free to make them look very different from humans. In this crazy mixed up world, a lot stranger things can happen than two different kind of folk falling in love. I've always thought the movie "Enemy Mine" was a love story.
I imagine hobgoblins like face of ape or gorilla. It is a good picture, a great work by artist, but hobgobling´s nose is too big. (I like the idea of describing them like Magia or  Yakuza boss mixed with Spartans).

But if the Hobgoblin has a flat “ape” nose ... how does it look different from an Orc or Half-Orc?







This is a A&D hobgoblin...do you realise the reason I imagine hobgoblins like gorilla caste from Planet of Apes?

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

I'm overall pretty happy with the new artwork. I agree they got confused (based on the descriptions) by giving goblins the largest ears...but then again I'm not sure I agree that bugbears should, either. I like that all flavors have the wider noses, it sets them a bit apart from other races such as orcs. Ironically, the bugbear seems eerily reminiscent of a certain other fella...

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Although I liked the original goblin concept sketch, I have to admit I really like these!  Gave them a Rocks! vote.




I think that's the best bugbear I've ever seen.  
I was just curious why the absolute avoidance of green.


Because goblins in a lot of other fantasy settings have been green (most notably Warcraft), and they want to emphasize the distinction.



And then of course, there's Marvel's Green Goblin.
I am in love with the hobgoblin design. I want to play one right now! The bugbear is pretty nice, and I really dig the goblin.



I was okay with the Goblin, liked the Bugbear, but disliked the Hobgoblin.  I felt they were too similar.  More like different sized Goblins, rather than different species of the Goblin family.  It was like having 3 different sized Beagles, rather than showing a Chihuahua, Beagle and Wolf.
But if the Hobgoblin has a flat “ape” nose ... how does it look different from an Orc or Half-Orc?

This is a A&D hobgoblin...do you realise the reason I imagine hobgoblins like gorilla caste from Planet of Apes?

Indeed the pictures you show above are ORCS, especially the less tusky variety.

 





I appreciate Dragons-Eye View has given the Goblinkin a cool look that can now distinguish them from Orc.
And then of course, there's Marvel's Green Goblin.



I was okay with the Goblin, ... but disliked the Hobgoblin.


Coming in Spring 2013 to Marvel NOW!: Norman Osborn heads back into the crazy supervillain business.  He's been the Green Goblin and the Hobgoblin.  Now, will The Bugbear finally kill Spider-man?

And then of course, there's Marvel's Green Goblin.



I was okay with the Goblin, ... but disliked the Hobgoblin.


Coming in Spring 2013 to Marvel NOW!: Norman Osborn heads back into the crazy supervillain business.  He's been the Green Goblin and the Hobgoblin.  Now, will The Bugbear finally kill Spider-man?




LOL  Nice!
I think this is a great redesign. It reminds me of the drawing in Werewolf the Apocalypse where is shows the transition to different forms. These all look like transitional forms of Schindehette, whose normal form is the bugbear. (LOL) You can clearly see they are related and they each embody a different tier of intelligence, strength and dexterity. 

I think the bugbear looks great. He might just be on the lean side of the average bugbear. There should be notable differences between individuals. They aren't all clones produced by a queen.

I think it's important to make D&D goblins their own identifiable thing. Unique to the setting. If they followed the lead of Kryptonian_Scion's proposed image, they would run up against the Pathfinder goblins, and I don't think we want that.

Good work. 

I don't know... I kinda love the PF goblins. 

Danny