what did SCG Cincinnati teach us?

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The dust from the standard portion of the tournament has settled, but what did we learn about it? Remember, learning is subjective at times, and this is one of those times. Personally I believe this:

  1. Reanimator will become the "lingering threat", meaning that while the deck will always be a threat, it will often fail to do well in one tournament, and crush another. The deck is highly dependant on a minimal amount of hate being run into. However, unlike previous graveyard based decks, this one will be harder to counter as it is not completely dependant on it's graveyard.

  2. UWR Miracles will not become a huge threat, not right away that is. Brad Nelson's final match in the tournament is the resounding reason why, It has an incredibly low threat density. Without entreat, the only option is usually jace ultimate, which isn't that scary to be honest. When the deck evolves to have a higher density of threats, it will do much better. I expect we will see the removal of red from the deck for green, adding in Thragtusk and Sigarda.

  3. Zombies will not claim it's spot as "Best Deck" in standard. While it was the most represented deck in the top 8, claiming 3 spots, only one managed to make it past the Quarterfinals, and that deck plays more like a RDW deck than a zombies deck. Remember, the reason we started playing zombies in the first place was to beat delver. AFAIK, Zombies has always been soft to Green-Red decks, and even without Whipflare or Slagstorm, that seems to still be true.

  4. Jund has the most raw potential, but tapping into that potential seems to be trickier than last time it was a deck. The problem this time isn't the manabase so much as it is the plan of attack for the deck.

  5. Lastly, Green based aggro will NOT be a thing, we already saw that the deck has literally no game vs Miracles, and something tells me that any form of non-aggro deck will have a field day with it.

2:25 PM sneakattackkid: my basics are worth more... 5:21 PM Nighthavk_: I was splitting more 8-4s than a hooker splits her legs. 11:42 PM Nighthavk_: because honestly, your opponent may be caw, but he'll probably be a drooling idiot who just found out porn exists.
In response:

1) Yeah, this has been my stance for a while. The deck has too many tools to not be at least reasonably good.

2) You forgot Tamiyo's ult. That said, the deck is far too durdley for my taste.

3) Not the best deck, but it will definitely always be that solid tier 1.5 "deck to beat."

4) Jund now is a completely different deck from Alara Jund. It's more "big goodstuff" and less "too much raw card advantage all game long."

5) I disagree. I just built a G/W/b tokens deck that doesn't give one whit for Miracles.

And a couple additions of my own:

A) Play Sever the Bloodline. It is good against every deck in the format.

B) The duality of Thragtusk and Silverheart will be one of the defining elements of this Standard. 

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The biggest take aways from SCG Cinci are:

1: Zombies are NOT a deck. Aggro as we currently know it, wasn't viable against many other decks.

2: Mid rangey stuff seems like the real deal. It's not locked down yet, and there are a few ways to take it. Jund did quite well.

3: U/W/r will be everywhere. People think it is a deck. It's not, but if you can't beat it, you must find a way. Think of it as the new zombies.

4: Thrag is an absolute house. This was already known, but with all the splashing in every deck, he's a must consider if not a must in every deck that plays green.

5: Personal takeaway, VERY excited to see not one person going the route I did, although some were succesful, with similar. 

6: SCG pros are complete d-bags. I don't care, but they Brad said multiple times that control "wasn't viable" knowing full well what he was going to play. This is a major F U to all of SCG's premium subscribers. I'm not one for band wagoning, but it's very wrong to lead the masses right to their own slaughter.

7: Speaking of slaughter, Slaughter Games is game over against miracles.
5) I disagree. I just built a G/W/b tokens deck that doesn't give one whit for Miracles.



I really wouldn't count Junk Tokens as "Green-based aggro" I'm talking about the decks that just drop things like Loxodon Smiter and turn things sideways. Tokens has Lingering Souls and Planeswalkers for dealing with Terminus. When I played Junk Tokens before we defined the metagame, I went 6-0 against UWx control.

Edit:


6: SCG pros are complete d-bags. I don't care, but they Brad said multiple times that control "wasn't viable" knowing full well what he was going to play. This is a major F U to all of SCG's premium subscribers. I'm not one for band wagoning, but it's very wrong to lead the masses right to their own slaughter.



I know what you mean, I was very very happy to hear that every pro said "yea, no control in standard" only to see most of those pros play Miracle in Cincinnati. I honestly cheered when Nelson got knocked out of T8 contention by Slaughter Games.

Edit #2:

@ Tamiyo's Ult: That method really requires that you have some kind of instant/sorcery/creature that you can recur to grind out a win. The deck doesn't run anything that can do that with the ultimate.
2:25 PM sneakattackkid: my basics are worth more... 5:21 PM Nighthavk_: I was splitting more 8-4s than a hooker splits her legs. 11:42 PM Nighthavk_: because honestly, your opponent may be caw, but he'll probably be a drooling idiot who just found out porn exists.
Going through the Top 64 tells a different story to what's stated here. You can't make judgments based on the Top 8 alone, the signal to noise ratio is way too low.

There looks to be 4 pillars of the format.

First, Zombies is absolutely a deck. Most builds seem to be BGR, but a few eschew green.

UWx control is the opposite side if the spectrum. Permission is very low, many only sbing a couple. Instead, its mainly about Jaces, Tamiyo and 6+ sweepers. X is either red for Pillars Etc, or green for Thragtusks.

Gx midrange (Naya, Jund, Junk, Bant, and a few GW) ate basically all Thragtusk decks that add a bit of ramp and a few other bombs like Mortars, Bonfires, or Huntmasters.

GW Aggro are also surprisingly the final pillar. Some are human based, others are not. Mostly good white creatures plus Rancor etc.

Also of note, but mainly fringe, are UW Humans, URx Tempo/Delver/GoST/Pike decks, and Unburial Rites decks.


That's the format, ladies and gentlemen. Start your brewing, and have md plans for Thragtusk (incl. Playing your own).
You magic freaks get so wrapped around yourselves... let me explain something very simple to you...

Removing the SCG Flag Wavers (Anderson and the gang) and their UWR miracles deck (its insulting to consider that a control deck) you have a top 12 of 2 main decks.  Thragtusk decks or Geralf's Messenger decks. 

Stop pretending like unburial ritesing or rakdosing these fools onto the board makes any difference.  Its all just dumb luck.  This format is dry, 1-dimensional and requires as much thought as my involuntary night farts.  I shuffle, I draw 7 and I just fart creatures out... WAIT!  ZOMG!  i pass with untapped mana................ here it comes (god im smart zomg)......... RESTRORATION ANGEL on THRAGTUSK.......!!!! BRILLIANT!!!! i am so good at magic.

No burn, no counterspells, no hand destruction... just lame ass aggro based around 2 creatures.  Horrible.
Tonykarts post is why you  should'nt base your opinions on top8 only. 

Zombies ends up proving an old point. Being public enemy number one means that the deck will never be best, only good. Having the entire metagame geared against you means you can never be the best deck. It will  be the boogeyman of the format for some time though. 

UWR seems to be the control colors of choice, because it can play the best planeswalkers and all  the bomby spells and sweepers from those colors (incl. bonfire). Grixis control tries to be too cute, even if Olivia is definitely a player. 

Jund is a ramp deck of old.  Jund as aggro has propably too volatile manabase since being an aggro requires reliability. 

I personally never write off aggro. But  people think that aggro=zombies, zombies got hated out(especially decks trying  to play messenger in exchange for shaky manabase), therefore aggro is bad.

ps. Try to have an original thought once in a while guys.. 
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional." Proud member of the Rakdos guild
The Roanoke kids stuck again. But anybody with half a brain knew that they wanted the field to be a mess of Zombies, so they played up how good Zombies is.

Zombies does have heehaw draws where it dumps it's hand onto the board by turn 4- however this doesn't make it a dominating deck- it just makes it a measuring stick for "what is fastest".

What's really interesting here is that this meta is going to be filled with submeta and games where subgames are abound. Reanimator, for example is going to have spikes where it rules, and then deadzones where it's hated out- I predict this is how Zombies is going to do as well. Rakdos and Human Aggro on the otherhand are slower, but less apt to get punished by meta choices. Ramp, Tokens and Midrange are closer to the "safe zone" of where you want to be if the format is overwhelming. And control is good, but in a very awkward positions because there's even fewer "standards" to build by after the first "major" tournament.
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Tonykarts post is why you  should'nt base your opinions on top8 only. 

Zombies ends up proving an old point. Being public enemy number one means that the deck will never be best, only good. Having the entire metagame geared against you means you can never be the best deck. It will  be the boogeyman of the format for some time though. 

UWR seems to be the control colors of choice, because it can play the best planeswalkers and all  the bomby spells and sweepers from those colors (incl. bonfire). Grixis control tries to be too cute, even if Olivia is definitely a player. 

Jund is a ramp deck of old.  Jund as aggro has propably too volatile manabase since being an aggro requires reliability. 

I personally never write off aggro. But  people think that aggro=zombies, zombies got hated out(especially decks trying  to play messenger in exchange for shaky manabase), therefore aggro is bad.

ps. Try to have an original thought once in a while guys.. 



While I agree with your general sentiment, your first point is countered by Caw-Blade and Ravager before it. 

First, UWR Control doesn't want Bonfire, which is why basically none of the UWR lists ran it. UWR has a couple of advantages, but UWG also has Thragtusks (which incidentally are the best answers to other Thragtusks). 

Zombies didn't get hated out that badly; it's still a major count in the Top 64. 
I'm really interested in the UW humans deck. I think it has a lot of potential and I hope it developes well. 

I watched all the coverage and I think what we can learn from this event , is that most people aren't that good at magic and even more of them can't build decks to save their lives.
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Soooooo apparently my humans thread is still in tournament center 1...... If anyone could point me in the directions for lists for the new W/U human list they have seen. I'll update the intro and remove the mirroden cards and add what the new decks are playing. If it s the cincinati from SCG then specifically which W/U/? or u/w/? list should I be looking at.
"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead." —Jaya Ballard, task mage
Check out the TCG Hartford 5K event that was the same weekend as SCG cinci. 
I'm surprised there wasn't a bigger showing of WW/x in the Top 64, similar to Shrout's build. It seems similar to what I would have ran in the tournament, since Zombies seemed like the auto-pick. I would've opted for Dryad Militant over the Falcon and tried a little harder to find a MD answer to Thragtusk (although there aren't many).

I'd look for this type of deck to keep evolving and getting better as the meta develops. The presence of so many midrange beaters might make it a little tougher on these types of decks though.

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... that i can start playing real control again... and i can start dominating dailies again

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so what im looking for is the azorius aggro then. Thanks, will update soonish
"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead." —Jaya Ballard, task mage
Going through the Top 64 tells a different story to what's stated here. You can't make judgments based on the Top 8 alone, the signal to noise ratio is way too low. There looks to be 4 pillars of the format. First, Zombies is absolutely a deck. Most builds seem to be BGR, but a few eschew green. UWx control is the opposite side if the spectrum. Permission is very low, many only sbing a couple. Instead, its mainly about Jaces, Tamiyo and 6+ sweepers. X is either red for Pillars Etc, or green for Thragtusks. Gx midrange (Naya, Jund, Junk, Bant, and a few GW) ate basically all Thragtusk decks that add a bit of ramp and a few other bombs like Mortars, Bonfires, or Huntmasters. GW Aggro are also surprisingly the final pillar. Some are human based, others are not. Mostly good white creatures plus Rancor etc. Also of note, but mainly fringe, are UW Humans, URx Tempo/Delver/GoST/Pike decks, and Unburial Rites decks. That's the format, ladies and gentlemen. Start your brewing, and have md plans for Thragtusk (incl. Playing your own).



I don't know why you think I got my data solely off the t8, I got it from watching featured matches. =/
2:25 PM sneakattackkid: my basics are worth more... 5:21 PM Nighthavk_: I was splitting more 8-4s than a hooker splits her legs. 11:42 PM Nighthavk_: because honestly, your opponent may be caw, but he'll probably be a drooling idiot who just found out porn exists.

White weenie:  it's like zombies, except  it doesn't have any reach and it loses to sweepers.


White Weenie: It's like tokens, except that it has no late game and no acceleration.

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White Weenie: It only beats zombies... and that's not always certain.
2:25 PM sneakattackkid: my basics are worth more... 5:21 PM Nighthavk_: I was splitting more 8-4s than a hooker splits her legs. 11:42 PM Nighthavk_: because honestly, your opponent may be caw, but he'll probably be a drooling idiot who just found out porn exists.
I think some of the negative remarks against the players are a bit harsh. I've been banging my head trying to figure out how to build a decent deck. You know what makes it hard? You don't know what anyone is going to play other than Zombies and Miracles. Don't get me wrong zombies was a good deck, but it was tuned against Delver. Delver isn't an issue now. The thing is the "hive mind" helps in diagnosing the meta and how to play.

I've lost against "awful" decks because I couldn't figure out the deck's angle until it was too late. What I learned is that these are the knee jerk reaction decks. The "best decks" are yet to be discovered. Given the attitude here. I'm sure many will claim this knowledge far after the reveal

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Going through the Top 64 tells a different story to what's stated here. You can't make judgments based on the Top 8 alone, the signal to noise ratio is way too low. There looks to be 4 pillars of the format. First, Zombies is absolutely a deck. Most builds seem to be BGR, but a few eschew green. UWx control is the opposite side if the spectrum. Permission is very low, many only sbing a couple. Instead, its mainly about Jaces, Tamiyo and 6+ sweepers. X is either red for Pillars Etc, or green for Thragtusks. Gx midrange (Naya, Jund, Junk, Bant, and a few GW) ate basically all Thragtusk decks that add a bit of ramp and a few other bombs like Mortars, Bonfires, or Huntmasters. GW Aggro are also surprisingly the final pillar. Some are human based, others are not. Mostly good white creatures plus Rancor etc. Also of note, but mainly fringe, are UW Humans, URx Tempo/Delver/GoST/Pike decks, and Unburial Rites decks. That's the format, ladies and gentlemen. Start your brewing, and have md plans for Thragtusk (incl. Playing your own).



I don't know why you think I got my data solely off the t8, I got it from watching featured matches. =/



Well, I was mostly making a flippant remark at the thread at large.

That said, feature matches are still too small a sample size to get a good SNR. 


The top 64 of SCG was pretty much exactly what I told my freinds it would be. People who say you can't predict a format that's unknown is flat out wrong. When we were testing for PT Philly(The UK and Norweigan teams), we had test versions of every deck in the field (aside from Sam Blacks infect deck) that we were banging up against each other. And these lists were very much quiet and unpublished, but we'd worked them out as being the best decks in the format.

You can work out what the best decks in a format will be before the format goes live, sometimes you'll miss one fringe deck, and you won't necessarily know what the bad decks will be, but they don't matter as you can predict the bulk of the format and identify the best decks.

Especially with standard which is a very small format that is easy to break down and ****. Sure, we might get a random deck or two that wasn't obvious, but it's easy to see the pillars of the format, best cards and strategies in the format. Then you just start tweaking.
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i chose to play Bant because everyone i know was shooting for Jund or Junk. This meant that locally Bant colors would not be sought after as much so they would be up for trade for more jund/junk card based strategies. Needless to say I was right and it has allowed me to make a Bant flicker control deck that isnt too shabby.  

makes me glad I got 3 Jace before they jump in price though.
  
13's back :D



This is the most important statement made in this thread. Period.

Also, I was surprised at so few Reanimator decks, considering the lack of hate. That said, I only looked at the top 32 decklists, as I've been at a wedding all weekend and missed the coverage. 

(at)MrEnglish22

the lack of solid win cons for control was also confirmed for me

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I produce Dubstep and House beats:

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Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

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I think tony made the most valid point of all. Geralf or thrag. Build. Smash. Done. Everything else is just background noise. With traditional control being so heavily nerfed..actually scratch that. It's not even bad, it's just the critters are SOO much better it only makes the control options look bad.

Build what you will, but it does seem to be the flavor between Geralf and the speed gang or thrag and the power game. And if anyone thinks adding gatecrash to the mix will help...I doubt it. Gruul? Talk about MOAR smash. I can't imagine them giving dimir a bunch of cool control stuff. Prob just dumb mill again.
the lack of solid win cons for control was also confirmed for me


Sigarda is pretty damn solid. 
The mage formerly known as kedi. Team GFG - Goons From Ghana - Playing sweet decks since 2010 1:31 AM Nighthavk_: I'm actually playing B/r zombies 1:31 AM Battle7: nice 1:31 AM Nighthavk_: yeah it's pretty sweet really 1:31 AM Battle7: playing esper tokens 1:32 AM Nighthavk_: I like that deck 1:32 AM Battle7: it's sweet
the lack of solid win cons for control was also confirmed for me


Sigarda is pretty damn solid. 



trees do not control opponents... they burn

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

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Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

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I personally find Niv-Mizzet to be a very solid finisher for control.

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the lack of solid win cons for control was also confirmed for me


Sigarda is pretty damn solid. 



trees do not control opponents... they burn



luls, your hatred of the color :G: comes up at the funniest moments. Something tells me that Plow Under, Choke and Omnibian decks get under your skin.
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i just don't like entreat, granted i've never played it, but it just never seems like where i want to be with a win con.  also, sever the bloodline WILL start seeing more play i believe, making angels look silly.

angel is.... maybe ok

but i just rediscovered [C]SPHINX OF UTHUUN[/C]  hell yes! this is freakin' sweet.  threw some in a grixis deck now that SOM fionally rotated on MODO (but we have no RTR....) and its been awesome along with every other trump i can find. 

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

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Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

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Am I a bad player for running bolas as a wincon?

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Am I a bad player for running bolas as a wincon?



depends on the deck, but not necessarily.  dreadbore is a card as well as oblivion ring and its offspring, for what its worth.  i'm guessing bolas isn't your only win card though..... right?  maybe?

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

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Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

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Seriously still no love for Drogskol Reaver?

catowner wrote:
Welcome to 2012. Blue has the most efficient creatures, black has the all-in monocolored aggro deck, the most controlling deck in the format is green-red, control decks lose to aggro in attrition wars, and counterspells aren't an answer to fatties.
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Seriously still no love for Drogskol Reaver?



titans spoiled me, i need something tangible and immediate from my fatties these days

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

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Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

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Seriously still no love for Drogskol Reaver?



titans spoiled me, i need something tangible and immediate from my fatties these days


Drogskol is like Consecrated Sphinx on steroids. Him triggering from Thragtusk and Sphinx is just the graviest feeling. 
The mage formerly known as kedi. Team GFG - Goons From Ghana - Playing sweet decks since 2010 1:31 AM Nighthavk_: I'm actually playing B/r zombies 1:31 AM Battle7: nice 1:31 AM Nighthavk_: yeah it's pretty sweet really 1:31 AM Battle7: playing esper tokens 1:32 AM Nighthavk_: I like that deck 1:32 AM Battle7: it's sweet
@forests: also running tamiyo, niv, and keyrunes. Maybe olivia.

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@forests: also running tamiyo, niv, and keyrunes. Maybe olivia.



oh, you definitely want olivia

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

https://soundcloud.com/burning_forest

 

Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

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