Extremely Loud and Incredibly Small (Pixie Sorcerer/Bard/Voice of Thunder)

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"No forced movement, not a team player."



Considering it costs a single feat and getting people into position is so important...yeah, kinda. I mean, really, if you can't swing a single square of forced movement per fight you've got serious issues.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Not really. E.g. my barb has >1kpr for the first two rounds and has no forced movement. Not pulling my weight, am I?
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
You apparently didn't take Pressing Strike as your secondary at-will or Thundering Howl as your E3, so that does raise a question or two, yes.

As optimized as characters can be, its probably still really important to have a toolbox power or two in your bag of tricks to handle all those situations where 'just DPR' isn't always the best solution. And in the case of Thundering Howl, it happens to be both a toolbox power as well as bread and butter, so you get best of both worlds.
The schtick of my barb is to use Storm of Blades as many times at possible per fight. I do actually have Thundering Howl (I resman'd it for Masterstroke) but I very rarely waste a standard action on it. I'd forgotten it had a small push.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Also, you should probably have a Zaarani Solitaire if you can swing it, which is super cheap and a way to get forced movement. It's what I mean when I'm saying not having a single instance of movement is kinda-silly. :P
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Very few things survive a barbarian crit, with the two back-up MBAs.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
"No forced movement, not a team player."



Considering it costs a single feat and getting people into position is so important...yeah, kinda. I mean, really, if you can't swing a single square of forced movement per fight you've got serious issues.

I wasn't being sarcastic at all. 

We have 2 new-to-tabletop players in our group right now, and it only took them 2 sessions to realize forced movement is great for clustering enemies up so someone can unload a heavy duty daily on them.

I would like to think that the people I play with are exceptional human beings, but I don't think seeing the value in forced movement is a difficult proposition.  By mid heroic, everyone should have some sort of forced movement option, at least once/encounter, or a VERY good reason not to.

Bargle wrote:
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
 

Zelink wrote:
You're already refluffing, why not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
Everyone ought to have something they can do when their normal toolkit doesn't work. From a strict role PoV, this means you can do something from another role. Controllers control. Defenders control. Most Strikers or Leaders ought to find it easiest to pick up some Defender or some Controller. i.e. everyone should have some kind of control option unless they're a Striker with Leader options or a Leader with some Striker options. Which tend to be rare unless you're a Striker|Leader hybrid, a Runepriest, or some very oddball Thaneborn Barbarian.

Forced Movement is a very easy to apply kind of control. But so is immobilize, daze, etc...and I'd rather have a selection of options than just forced movement.
Except you can't acquire Daze as a slotless item that costs peanuts and works once per encounter. Unless I mised a total steal, at least.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).

The Premise


The Bard PP Voice of Thunder has an absurdly powerful level 11 encounter power, Rolling Echo.


Hit: 2d6 + Charisma modifier thunder damage, and you push the target 1 square. Before you take any actions during your next turn, you can repeat the attack as a free action.


 Since the repeat rider is on the Hit: line, this means that regardless of whether you think "repeat the attack" means "attack power" or "attack from this power", it will trigger again on your next turn when you hit with it, meaning you get a massive free action, ally-friendly attack power every round as long as there are still enemies around to nuke with it.




Quick RAW or RAI question to the gurus.  How did you guys define this encounter power to mean repeat attack every round if hit until end of encounter?  Daily powers don't come close.  


The power says repeat the attack. What is the attack? 
Hit: 2d6 + Charisma modifier thunder damage, and you push the target 1 square. Before you take any actions during your next turn, you can repeat the attack as a free action.
So you repeat that and do what it says, which means you make it again next turn. And trying to compare the relative power of encounter and daily powers is silly for two reasons.

1. This power clearly doesn't work as we THINK it was intended, but its very clear that it repeats every turn
2. There are huge swings in the relative power of encounter and daily powers. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
The power says repeat the attack. What is the attack? 
Hit: 2d6 + Charisma modifier thunder damage, and you push the target 1 square. Before you take any actions during your next turn, you can repeat the attack as a free action.
So you repeat that and do what it says, which means you make it again next turn. And trying to compare the relative power of encounter and daily powers is silly for two reasons.

1. This power clearly doesn't work as we THINK it was intended, but its very clear that it repeats every turn
2. There are huge swings in the relative power of encounter and daily powers. 



Ok that makes sense, I suppose.  Since we're dealing with semantics RAI or common sense put aside,  "..you can repeat the attack as a free action..."

Free Action: Free actions take almost no time or effort. You can take as many free actions as you
want during your or another combatant’s turn. The DM can restrict the number of free actions in a turn. Examples: speaking a few sentences, dropping a held item, letting go of a grabbed enemy..

Why not interpret it as Unlimited 2d6+Char attacks next turn until DM says ok that's enough of that free action...

Just trying to understand the logic or reasoning inside or out of context. Things my players ask of me or vice versa when such things are interpreted in such a way.  Thanks!

Because of this part: Before you take any actions during your next turn...

Once you've made the attack, you've taken an action (a free action).
Because of this part: Before you take any actions during your next turn...

Once you've made the attack, you've taken an action (a free action).



Ok that makes sense as well.  I see your guys logic of interpretation now.  Just one more question though, since power doesn't specify it stops (it's simply assumed) once you have taken an action, it just places a condition that you can again next turn if you hit, it clearly defines the attack as "free action" ("free action" is clearly defined)... why not multiple times in next round?

If conjecture based on Common Sense, Balance, RAI & Context is out the door, why not treat it as what it literally describes "Free Action" attack? 

 
Because it says you can take the free action attack before you take any other actions on your turn.  Once you use the option to make that free action attack, you've taken an action (and if you choose not to take that option, the window closes).  The only way you could possibly justify doing it multiple times in a round is if it said "no action," which would be screwy wording.  Also, RAW is used because it provides a common, universal framework for discussion; common sense, balance, etc., all tend to be subjective.
Ok.  Thank you.  I understand the train of thought.
Even ignoring the whole "once you repeat it as a free action, you have now taken an action and therefore cannot repeat it again" ... Under the current rules for Free Action Attacks, I'm ... really not sure how you could possibly interpret "Before you take any actions during your next turn, you can repeat the attack as a free action." to allow multiple repeats
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I don't believe the argument is for multiple repeats per turn, it's for a repeat once per turn, every single turn, until you miss all targets with it.  Because the 'and you repeat the attack' text is in the hit: line, it is re-applied on a hit, and therefore rolls over to the next line.  But clearly, an encounter power that gives you a free-action attack, reliably, every turn is not RAI...

Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
"Not RAI" on what basis? Being able to repeat it 2+ times is the break-even point for Echo being worth using at all vs. just opening with flame spiral like every other sorcerer, so it's just as easily arguable that the power is functioning exactly as it should.


If it were a Sorcerer power, that would make sense.  But it's a leader PP, doing damage itself is slightly off-base.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Having seen AoE blasters (one dead Genasi, one rebreather) in action, I tend to think the AoE equivilence tables are actually in the right ballpark.  I've seen both the prior mentioned blasters end encounters on their first turn by killing everything in sight.  (Technically, by killing all but one standard equivilent).  Weaker against solos and elites, yes.

Edit: But yeah.  The way that off-role PPs are always better than on-role PPs is a minor pet peeve of mine, and part of why most PCs should multiclass.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Soo...  Here's my question.

If a player decides to truly op around this power can s/he do the following.

Round 1
Rolling Echo

Round 2.1
Repeat Rolling Echo followed by delaying to next persons turn.

Round 2.2
Repeat Rolling Echo followed by delaying to next persons turn.

etc etc.

Here are the reasons/rules regarding what I am asking.

Delay Turn
         Action: Free action. A creature can take this action only when its turn is about to start.
         Delay until Later Initiative: The creature delays its turn until it decides to act later in the initiative order. However, parts of the creature’s turn occur the moment the creature delays, as detailed below.
         Returning to the Initiative Order: After any turn has been completed, the creature can step back into the initiative order and take its turn. The creature’s initiative changes to this new position in the initiative order.
         Start of Turn: The start of the creature’s turn occurs when the creature delays, not when it later takes its turn. Thus, effects that are triggered by the start of the turn still take place—they can’t be avoided by delaying.
         End of Turn: The end of the creature’s turn gets split in two: One part occurs when the creature delays, and the second part when it later takes its delayed turn. Different things occur at each of those times.

This assumes that the delay action is your first action in any given turn BUT RE comes before that every time as it needs an action to do.  (See underlined Start of Turn section)

Since we are repeating a free action attack we also need to deal with one other thing; being allowed to repeat said free action multiple times.  Since it is also ruled that you do end your turn after the delay happens that takes care of that.  (Though there are lines of thought that I can see that would argue against that since your turn is not technically FULLY ended at that point.)

This would honestly drive ANY DM nuts I'm sure but it seems to be perfectly within the lines of the rules. 

Let me know if something contradicts this..  It was just an amusing little thing that occured to me.
You only get one start of turn if you delay anyway. You get start of turn when you delay, and then when you come back into the initiative order you skip your start of turn phase. This so you can't use delaying to be a rules dick.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Delay Turn
         Action: Free action. A creature can take this action only when its turn is about to start.
Echo: Before you take any actions during your next turn


Emphasis mine. Delay occurs before your turn, Echo can only be repeated during the turn.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
This could be a problem.  "When you wield a magic dagger or a magic staff, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of sorcerer powers and sorcerer paragon path powers that have the implement keyword."  Rolling Echo is a Voice of Thunder (Bard PP) power.  

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

This could be a problem.  "When you wield a magic dagger or a magic staff, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of sorcerer powers and sorcerer paragon path powers that have the implement keyword."  Rolling Echo is a Voice of Thunder (Bard PP) power.  


That's none exhaustive at this point and was written back when you couldn't mix implements between your hybrid and MC'd classes. Since that errata, a character can use any implement he's proficient in for any implement attack he can make, no matter the class of the power.

This is why people MC into Assassin (ki focus) or Cleric (symbols) in order to free up their hands for a sword and shield for instance while still having an implement for implement attacks.
This could be a problem.  "When you wield a magic dagger or a magic staff, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of sorcerer powers and sorcerer paragon path powers that have the implement keyword."  Rolling Echo is a Voice of Thunder (Bard PP) power.  


That's none exhaustive at this point and was written back when you couldn't mix implements between your hybrid and MC'd classes. Since that errata, a character can use any implement he's proficient in for any implement attack he can make, no matter the class of the power.

This is why people MC into Assassin (ki focus) or Cleric (symbols) in order to free up their hands for a sword and shield for instance while still having an implement for implement attacks.

Can you provide a quote please?  I'm reading the collected errata but I'm having problems finding that.  Thank you.

EDIT:  I realize that you could use Bard implements for your sorcerer powers since the Pixie MCd in Bard, but does that equate to being able to use the dagger for Bard powers as well?  Or is there some other update I can't find?  Is it just the "You now require only proficiency with an implement in order to use it with an implement power." in the Implements section of the combined errata?

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

Wasn't an errata, was an update to the rules in the Essentials line of books. If you are proficient in an Implement, you can use it for any power that has the Implement keyword.
Wasn't an errata, was an update to the rules in the Essentials line of books. If you are proficient in an Implement, you can use it for any power that has the Implement keyword.

Ah, here we go.  HoTFL 70:  "If an adventurer does have proficiency with an implement, he or she can use it with any of his or her implement powers."

That, combined with RAI info and implement errata, is good enough for me.  We've actually already always played implements this way, but I only rethought it once I read this build.  Thanks. 

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”