Instant Spells Vs. Abilities

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A friend said that if I were to sacrifice a multiple number of creatures with Bloodthrone Vampire while Blood Artist on the battlefield he could cast a Searing Spear at the Blood Artist after the sacrificing was done it would cancle out the life gain/lost. With the wording on the Blood Artist says "whenever" which means it happens instantly when the creature dies and would have to be destroyed before the sacrificing began to prevent the life gain/loss, correct?
A friend said that if I were to sacrifice a multiple number of creatures with Bloodthrone Vampire while Blood Artist on the battlefield he could cast a Searing Spear at the Blood Artist after the sacrificing was done it would cancle out the life gain/lost. With the wording on the Blood Artist says "whenever" which means it happens instantly when the creature dies and would have to be destroyed before the sacrificing began to prevent the life gain/loss, correct?

The triggered ability from Blood Artist already triggered. Therefore, life gain/loss still happen.

Basically, you have it right. Although, you can also sac a creature to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to his Searing spear killing the Blood Artist
So in other words I could stack any number of instants/abilities from other spells/creatures using the target Blood Artist's ability before the Searing Spear resolves in destroying it?

Correct.  In order for Searing Spear to resolve and kill the Blood Artist, all players must pass priority in succession.  Assuming no restrictions are in place, you can use Instants and Abilites any time you have priority.  Searing Spear can't kill your Blood Artist without giving you a chance to make use of it's triggers.
Ok thats excellent then, how that came about is I had on the field 

2x Blood Artist
2x Bloodthrone Vampire
1x Korozda Guildmage
1x Primordial Hydra (8/8)


I used Korozda Guildmage to split the Primordial Hydra into 8 1/1 Saporilings then sacrificed them all with Bloodthrone Vampire and split that agin into multiple saporling and sacrifce the the rest with the second Bloodthrone Vampire including the rest of the creatures on the board leaving the Blood Artist last to go of course. So basically if my friend inturrupts the process I can still continue in response to the Searing Spear. Would there be anything that could stop the cycle other than running out of mana to pay for the ability?
split second

Sundial of the Infinite/Time Stop (if you stack all the triggers without letting them resolve)
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Sweet, I built a the standard token deck around that also adding a few Crusader of Odric and Essence Harvest which work good as well for buliding creatures up and making the opponent loose life but I never thought it would be that effective.
Hey Nitrosus it's Darryl,

So my point all along has been that if you stack all your sacs... then I go "okay, fireball on bloody painterman", then he has nothing left (in his hand, or abilities on creatures) to instant on top, then ok stack resolve time.

order things placed in stack

1. a million sacs
2. laser beam on gore drawer

order of resolving stack

1. explosion on murderous fingerpainter
2. stupid sacrifices - no painter to trigger.

AM I RIGHT? if I'm not, and he can re-call abilities after the stack has been established (essentially re-ordering them?), then oh boy!

Thanks guys
he can let the triggers resolve and then continue to sacrifice
if he stacks them like this, yes, that works (that's also why Time Stop works in that case), but that is then simply a misplay on his part, don't count on it ;)
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Nitrosus sez : "So basically if my friend inturrupts the process I can still continue in response to the Searing Spear ."


I say sure... continue with what? you called it all already.
Possibly a misplay, I agree, but we pass priority constantly.  I can sit there and act like I'm messed as he lines up the kill.  He can ask every sac if I want to stop it, and no I don't.  Saving the rocket shot for the end
Also, last quick post, but Witchbane Orb
Nitrosus sez : "So basically if my friend inturrupts the process I can still continue in response to the Searing Spear ."


I say sure... continue with what? you called it all already.

for example he used Korzoda Guildmage to sacrifice the Primordial Hydra
in response to that the opponent tries to Searing Spear the Blood Artist

and in response to that he can continue his combo, always letting Blood Artist triggers resolve, but never Searing Spear until he is done
(it will cost him more because the original ability from the guildmage will not resolve before the Searing Spear)
proud member of the 2011 community team

1. explosion on murderous fingerpainter
2. stupid sacrifices - no painter to trigger.

AM I RIGHT?


No.

The creatures are sacrificed as a cost: Costs are paid immediately, and do not use the stack.

Thus even if your opponent were to stack up as many of the effects as possible (the maximum at any point in this sequence being 40 or so: though there is no reason to have that many on the stack at once) you would still be hit by all of them, even after killing the artist.
All his poisonous paint is already flying towards you.

The best point at which to do it is just as he casts a split, as the split won't resolve until after your damage. However you'd have to kill both artists to make it worthwhile; he'll still be doing lethal with just one.
Possibly a misplay, I agree, but we pass priority constantly.  I can sit there and act like I'm messed as he lines up the kill.  He can ask every sac if I want to stop it, and no I don't.  Saving the rocket shot for the end 


If he's asked after a sacrifice whether you want him to stop, then he's passed priority, you've accepted the effect, and it has resolved.
This is normally assumed to occur after every time he sacrifices anyway, unless he says otherwise, but he's actually making it explicit for you. 
Possibly a misplay, I agree, but we pass priority constantly.  I can sit there and act like I'm messed as he lines up the kill.  He can ask every sac if I want to stop it, and no I don't.  Saving the rocket shot for the end

after you cast a spell or activate an ability you get priority again
a shortcut is assumed to pass that priority, but you can keep it if you wish
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Also, last quick post, but Witchbane Orb

sure, that will stop Blood Artist because it targets

if only green had ways to deal with artifacts
proud member of the 2011 community team
The following needs to be understood (and probably already has been explained / understood at this point):
a)  The sacrifice part of Bloodthrone Vampire's ability is a cost, since it appears to the left of the colon.  Costs are paid immediately, too fast to respond to.  So the creatures hit the graveyard, and Blood Artist's triggered ability is placed on the stack.
b)  Once an ability goes on the stack, destroying the ability's source will not remove the ability from the stack or counter it.

if only green had ways to deal with artifacts



Acidic Slime
Crushing Vines
Natural End
Naturalize
Rain of Thorns
Sundering Growth


These are just the standard-legal options...there are still others out there.         


These are just the standard-legal options...there are still others out there.         


I think you may have botched your Detect Sarcasm roll :p
I never said Witchbane Orb couldn't be countered... but come on, how many cards is he playing at this point?

(I'm disputing the phrasing he used that it's "an insta-kill glitch deck" by the way and it's carried onto here)

All variables aside, thanks for the info regarding the extra-instant nature involved in paying a cost.


Lackeos sez : "b)  Once an ability goes on the stack, destroying the ability's source will not remove the ability from the stack or counter it. "

But destroying the ability's target will make it fizzle?
 
I think you may have botched your Detect Sarcasm roll :p



Kinda what I figured, but you never can be sure.
Lackeos sez : "b)  Once an ability goes on the stack, destroying the ability's source will not remove the ability from the stack or counter it. "

But destroying the ability's target will make it fizzle?

making ALL targets of a spell or ability illegal will cause the spell or ability to be countered, yes
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At this point it's redudant but I just thought for future reference I'd ask.  In this case no dice because
a - there's so many
b - the second he's called it i'm toast.

it's a big pay-off for a moderate setup, I agree.  Just NOT glitched/insta-kill.

Thanks everyone for the help!

if only green had ways to deal with artifacts



Acidic Slime
Crushing Vines
Natural End
Naturalize
Rain of Thorns
Sundering Growth


These are just the standard-legal options...there are still others out there.         




Thanks, I have some of those and I'l be sure to stuff some in my side deck lol  

This was an enthralling thread to read (no sarcasm). I'm still relatively new to magic- been buying cards like a bad habit for a while now, but rarely actually get to play, so still have a hard time conceptualizing some of the mechanics that I read about.

People have mentioned a potential "misstep" with regards to the stack that player one could have made to give an opening to player 2, and discussed at what point player two with the Searing Spear can cast it and this and that...if anyone feels like helping me with a bit of a remedial walk-through here, I am curious exactly what the scenario is with regards to what mistake the guy sacrificing the creatures would have made. I've read some things here and there about the stack, trying to figure out the scenario presented in this thread, but am still a little foggy.

So say this is player 1's (guy with the Blood Artist) turn. His first step was to pay Korozda Guildmage's mana cost for sacrificing, plus sacrifice a creature.

Because this is a paid ability, it goes on the stack (correct?), and the tokens are technically not yet on the battlefield (correct?).

Right at the moment he sacrificed the Primordial Hydra, Blood Artist triggered once (correct?).

So now are there 8 tokens pending (and if so, where?), or have they come into play? Is there any action that the opposing player can take right now to prevent them from entering? (Counter target creature spell, etc)?

Now 8 1/1 tokens are on the battlefield. He sacrifices each one, one at a time consecutively (correct?). Kingreaper says these do not go on the stack, because they are a "cost" and costs are paid immediately and do not use the stack. MTG Salvation Wiki says activated abilities use the stack, "except for those that are mana abilities". I have read that an activated ability " is written with a colon and has a cost and an effect" How can I tell the difference between a cost and an activated ability?

So now, player 1 has a 17/17 Bloodthrone Vampire.

Up to this step, has player 1 not been required to at any point to give priority to player 2? I'm unclear on where along those lines the stack was or was not used. Was there ever a point where player 2 could have futilely cast a Searing Spear on one of the tokens? Played a Phyrexian Rebirth on all of the tokens plus the other permanents? Done anything at all? Or did player 1 at no point have to give priority to player 2 (which I thought was a requirement if player 1 had been casting sorceries or whatever else, instead of using abilities).

Now player 1 repeats the process, sacrificing the 17/17 Bloodthrone with the Korozda Guildmage (and could player 2 have cast Searing Spear on the Guildmage before player 1 had a chance to "rinse and repeat"?), for 17 1/1 tokens, which are then sacrificed one by one to create a 35/35 (I think that math is right) Bloodthrone Vampire.

Sacrifice the Guildmage, sacrifice the Blood Artist. By this time player 1 has dealt 30-some damage and gained 30-some life (somewhere around there), and is left with an enormous 40+/40+ Vampire.

Is that all correct? It is a very neat trick. Amazing what people think of.

So player 2 at no point has a chance to respond, because of the (murky in my murky mind) rules of activated abilities and the stack. Yes?



I fully expect that no one will answer this- but if anyone wants to, or even just shed some light on any of my billion questions, I would appreciate it tremendously. It is surprisingly hard to really get a grasp on some of this, even with the internet, when being in a sort of vacuum and without hands-on exposure to some of these things.

Anyway, thanks!
I'll give a partial answer: in order for the Guldmage's ability to resolve, both players have to pass priority. But instead of passing, the opponent could cast Searing Spear, killing the Bloodthorne Vampire, stopping the loop cold.

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I'll give a partial answer: in order for the Guldmage's ability to resolve, both players have to pass priority. But instead of passing, the opponent could cast Searing Spear, killing the Bloodthorne Vampire, stopping the loop cold.



That seems like an easy way to stop all this tomfoolery.

So Korozda's ability went onto the stack? Because this ability has a cost (2BG, Sac) colon and effect?

(And if you answer that, can you also include whether the Bloodthorne's ability [cost- sac a creature colon effect- +2/+2 until end of turn] would go on the stack or not? One person who previously answered said "The creatures are sacrificed as a cost: Costs are paid immediately, and do not use the stack"- is this not correct, or is THAT cost somehow different than the Bloodthorne's cost?)
All activated abilites go on the stack.  Costs do not.

In your example the cost for Kordoza'a ability (mana and saccing a creature (these are costs)) are paid and the ability to create the tokens is now on the stack.

At this point you can not activate the Bloodthrone Vampire becuase the ability of the Kordoza Guildmage hasn't resolved yet.  This is the opportunity for the opponent to use Searing Spear to disrupt the loop.
MTG Rules Advisor
All activated abilites go on the stack.  Costs do not.

In your example the cost for Kordoza'a ability (mana and saccing a creature (these are costs)) are paid and the ability to create the tokens is now on the stack.

At this point you can not activate the Bloodthrone Vampire becuase the ability of the Kordoza Guildmage hasn't resolved yet.  This is the opportunity for the opponent to use Searing Spear to disrupt what the loop.



Thanks...so, he bolts the Guildmage (after ability to create tokens is on the stack) and nothing happens (besides Guildmage dying), tokens still come out.

He bolts the Vampire, it dies, tokens still come out, but his scheme is crippled.

Thanks for the answers. Sorry for the remedial question(s).
depending on how many creatures he has he can save the vampire by simply sacrificing some
that may still ruin his plan, but it might not be as bad ;)
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All activated abilites go on the stack.  Costs do not.

nitpick:

activated mana abilities do not go to the stack either
eg. Birds of Paradise or Iron Myr

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depending on how many creatures he has he can save the vampire by simply sacrificing some
that may still ruin his plan, but it might not be as bad ;)



If he had some random other creature in addition to what he mentioned near the start of the thread, he could sac it, beef up the vampire to survive the Searing Spear.

Is this the average sort of deck complexity that people in tournaments play? Its freaking terrifying. All these schemes, I feel like I'm back in high school math class again.
nono, this is just a silly combo
generally the player is long dead before he can position half the cards for that combo ;)

but in casual with less control decks and less aggressive decks this could very well happen
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nono, this is just a silly combo
generally the player is long dead before he can position half the cards for that combo ;)

but in casual with less control decks and less aggressive decks this could very well happen



Ha. I'm not sure whether I'm relieved by that, or not.

Fortunately(?), my love of wurms and spirits probably would prevent me from ever getting far enough to find out which is worse anyway (the silly combo deck, or the tournament-level control or aggro decks).