Boomer Sooner - Thundering Revenant Sorcerer

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I was just having fun in the builder and wanted to share, there aren't exactly a lot of sorcerer templates on the forum that I generally see.  I don't think there's anything particularly special here, but it's fun to think of doing 2d8+3d8+2d8+3d8+2d4+3d8+177 (or maybe 195 vs bloodied) with nothing but at wills for a couple rounds.

The feat order isn't optimal, I didn't really plan this so much as play around for a while.  But I love how Speaker of Xaos can make things bigger, Resounding Thunder can make things bigger, and Destructive Wizardry can add 4 more to each of the damage rolls.  Then there's brutal 1 from the paragon path to help out, slide 2 or more from the mark and the superior implement, -2 target AC once you've finished arranging your targets where you want them from distracting coincidences, all those extra d8's from promise of storm, lightning blades at will from archmage (daily -> encounter with effect that let's you attack throughout the encounter), admixed to thunder (natch!)...  Just a lot of little synergies here and there.

The main kick though is the static mods...

+9 primary stat, +6 enhancement, +6 dual implement, +11 secondary stat (sorcerous power), +4 feat bonus, +5 dragonshard, +5 ioun stone, +4 superior implement (+3 echoes of thunder, +6 elemental echo, +4 destructive wizardry, +6 gauntlets)...   Tossing 10 or 13 d8's across the table with a couple d4's with +50 or +59 or +69 on the minor and another +50-70 on the standard makes me giggle.

You could go the sonnlinor or ghostly vitality or superior will route to layer pseudo-invincibility on there if you wanted as per the revenant handbook, there are suboptimal feats and things you could rearrange, I'd probably go promise of storm long before improved defenses in actual play.  He's probably got too much gear.  But I was mainly just fooling around.  Hopefully this draws a couple giggles or comments or better yet refinements from the crowd.

Thanks for reading.  ^_^

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Scourge, level 30
Revenant, Sorcerer, Speaker of Xaos, Archmage
Build: Chaos Sorcerer
Spell Source Option: Wild Magic
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Choose your Race in Life: Genasi
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
Theme: Firecrafter
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 12, DEX 24, INT 13, WIS 10, CHA 28
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 10, DEX 14, INT 11, WIS 8, CHA 18
 
 
AC: 47 Fort: 35 Ref: 42 Will: 45
HP: 185 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 46
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +21, Athletics +21, Endurance +23, History +21
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +24, Bluff +28, Diplomacy +28, Dungeoneering +15, Heal +15, Insight +15, Intimidate +30, Nature +15, Perception +15, Religion +16, Stealth +22, Streetwise +28, Thievery +22
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Firecrafter Attack: Blazing Corona
Revenant Utility: Dark Reaping
Genasi Racial Power: Promise of Storm
Sorcerer Attack 1: Ensorcelled Blade
Sorcerer Attack 1: Storm Walk
Wizard Attack 1: Beguiling Strands
Sorcerer Utility 2: Shield of Flames
Sorcerer Utility 6: Chaos Wager
Sorcerer Utility 10: Fog Form
Speaker of Xaos Attack 11: Elemental Durance
Speaker of Xaos Utility 12: Repel Elements
Sorcerer Attack 13: Primordial Storm
Sorcerer Attack 15: Lightning Daggers
Sorcerer Utility 16: Icy Integument
Sorcerer Attack 17: Thunderstroke
Speaker of Xaos Attack 20: Elemental Chains
Sorcerer Utility 22: Wind Shape
Sorcerer Attack 25: Wrathful Vapors
Archmage Utility 26: Shape Magic
Sorcerer Attack 27: Thunderous Might
Sorcerer Attack 29: Wyrm Form
 
FEATS
Level 1: Superior Implement Training (Resonating dagger)
Level 2: War Wizard's Expertise
Level 4: Unarmored Agility
Level 6: Improved Defenses
Level 8: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 10: Echoes of Thunder
Level 11: Thunder's Rumble
Level 12: Resounding Thunder
Level 14: Past Soul
Level 16: Elemental Echo
Level 18: Mark of Storm
Level 20: Distracting Coincidences
Level 21: Arcane Initiate
Level 22: Destructive Wizardry
Level 24: Quickened Spellcasting
Level 26: Epic Resurgence
Level 28: Superior Initiative
Level 30: Arcane Admixture
 
ITEMS
Demonskin Tattoo (epic tier) x1
Siberys Shard of the Mage (epic tier)
Elven Chain Shirt (epic tier)
Wraith's Cord x1
Ring of Tenacious Will x1
Shadow Band x1
Cloak of Distortion +6 x1
Ioun Stone of Allure x1
Gauntlets of Blood (epic tier) x1
Zephyr Boots x1
Executioner's Bracers (epic tier) x1
Battle Harness Starweave Armor +6 x1
Shielding Blade Resonating dagger +6 x1
Rhythm Blade Resonating dagger +6 x1
====== End ======
You mean that's your "round 2" damage (Quicken is 1/enc and You'd have to use the Encounter/Daily in round 1). At level 30. That's terrible, you're not even killing a Standard, statistically speaking, even if you AP to do another at-will. What you're calling synergies, the rest of us call "um, yeah, ok?".

Pretty much any At-Will > Storm Walk, Lightning > Thunder, Demonskin Adept > Xaos, and more importantly, Encounter Powers >>> At-Wills, just using Flame Spiral would deal 1d10+2d6+9d8+171 damage to 3 targets using your layout. Especially as a Sorc, the only reason you even look at your at-wills post 7th is because of OAs and Having an Enabling leader.

It's worth pointing out that Destructive Wizardry doesn't work with Storm Walk, you have to hit two targets with the power.

Also, it's Lightning Daggers (not Blades) and Natch is one of the most absurd abbreviations I've ever heard.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
*looks closely*

Hmmm, not the One...

Wow, I read that with a little curb stomping in it.  You never run out of dailies and encounters after 7th?  That seems, I dunno, unlikely...  But I could very easily be wrong, I just picked the at wills because I wanted a OA safe ability and a quickened choice that would already be thunder for when I need to hit a single target or a target that just has too many friendlies around it even with the -5 to attack friendlies.  Conversely, I definitely agree on the Lightning > Thunder, it's just it's resisted more, it doesn't auto expand, and the actual sorcerer powers I saw to choose from either were both lightning and thunder, or the thunder option was, I dunno, cooler.  >_<;

I would want to use the AP during the promise of storm/elemental echo/echoes of thunder turns and probably with one of the encounter powers for the additional burst size from Xaos and resounding thunder (and as you said, encounters >>> at wills so it'd definitely be better to get them out then).  I know AE is sub-optimal over DPR king single target eliminations, but some part of you has to find throwing burst 5 sonics out that thunder across 50' of the battle field at least partially entertaining?  Pretty please?  ^_^

How do you get to +171 on flame spiral?  It's single attack so it'd be more in the 50 range wouldn't it?  The +150's and more only come from multiattacks, like the added minor from Lightning Daggers or stuff like Wrathful Vapors doing it's damage once to the target, then again giving your mods when it hits adjacent targets which hopefully splashes back.  And it's not thunder so it doesn't get some of the goodies.  I really like that power though, especially with slides.  You think it's good enough to keep way into the late game over higher level encounter powers?  Unless you just mean as part of the normal combo.

True enough on Destructive Wizardry, it only applies to the big booms, not the little single target booms.  But then, everything but the minor action/at wills ARE big booms.  ^_^

Sorry about the blades/daggers confusion.  You don't like (natch!)?  I've always had an affinity for it from columns at the back of comic books.  I can see how you might find it absurd though, it's definitely an acquired taste.  Thanks for the tough love.  Anything you'd want to see to bring it up to your damage standards?
If you don't understand flame spiral you don't understand the sorcerer class.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Oh I like Flame Spiral a lot, it's just in this build I didn't have a place for it.  Getting to add another damage roll with mods is great, that's why I love wrathful vapors too.  You think it'd be better to keep flame spiral all the way to 30?
You never run out of dailies and encounters after 7th?

By the time you run out of encounters, you usually run out of enemies.

i.e.

Round 1:  5 enemies, encounter power 1
Round 2:  4 enemies, encounter power 2
Round 3:  2-3 enemy, encounter power 3
Round 4:  1-2 enemies, at-will.

So your opimizing for 1/4 of your combat, and it's 5 on 1 at that point.


Flamespiral is nasty since you/your allies can move people around and get double or tripple the damage.

And +1 to natch being... less good.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Ah!  That makes sense, thanks Mello.
You think it'd be better to keep flame spiral all the way to 30?


Many people do not like that Sorcerers get what is often considered their best Encounter power ever at level 3.  It's great when you're playing only a few levels, especially after you get a few feats to add to it, but people sometimes get bored doing the same killer death spiral from level 3 - 30.

Being able to take Mark of Storm makes it that much easier on you to get the triple tap.  Lightning Dagger (Lancing), all creatures in the burst take a hit, then take another from entering the aura, and then they start their turn in your aura for a third.  All from one Standard.  Add in other movement shenanigans from yourself or other members and you are nuking half of team monster.
Oh that's sweet...  You'd definitely want to build around that though, utilities to help you survive you wanting to be surrounded, more close bursts than area bursts to then safely hit the people you've brought into your aura, completely different kind of sorcerer but from the looks of it a far more deadly one.  It's a great schtick to have though you are right, if you had to play it from level 3 to 30 it might get kind of old never replacing it because you lack more tactically optimal choices.
Destructive Wizardry applied to nothing you mentioned in your damage layout of At-Will, Quicken At-Will, Lightning Daggers.

All of your Encounter Power choices are terrible. Strikers only work by doing multiple high damage instances to targets, and only one of the ones you picked (Primordial Storm) is even capable of doing that, and you'd need to be abusing Cold and/or Radiant in order for that to occur, you aren't. Raw Dice of damage are meaningless unless you're racking up dice per attack (10+) equal to what Chargers do, and even then you're falling behind a multi-attacker very quickly.

Flame Spiral, done with a Lancing Thunderbolt Weapon, is 1d10+Cha+X Slide 1 -> 1d6+X due to the slide, +1d6+X at Start of their Turn (+1d6+X for every off-turn forced movement applied to the target). That's 3+ High Damage instances. Demonsoul Bolts (From Demonskin Adept) is 3 High Damage instances to a single target from range. More encounter multi-taps:
Chains of Fire (13) - Requires forced movement, but that's trivial.
Dragon Tail Meditation (17) - IA's are an extra attack per round, not quite a multi-tap but still solid. IR to being moved next to is quite good until high epic where every enemy has reach.
Poisonous Evasion (17) - Requires being missed, but a burst as an IA is fun.
Rumbling Storm Bolt (23) - Requires hit, but adds solid control.
Sun and Stars (23) - Guaranteed 2 Attacks vs the target, the top choice.
Inferno Ring (23) - With Active Familiar you can damage the Primary twice.
Mother Claw (27) - This is a terrible IA since it's only Melee 1.
Chaos Infusion (27) - Not by itself, but enables Chaos Bolt and a few other powers to be.
Lightning Backlash (27) - Requires Active Familiar and hitting.
Poison Ward (27) - Potential double-tap, the "on it's turn" is Forced Movement restrictive.
Wildfire Curse (27) - You have to hit, but the 1st target can be hit twice. Chains like Chaos Bolt.

And with the feat Unlucky Teleport, every power that teleports enemies becomes a +1-tap:
Chains of Fire (13) - Gets even better!
Thunder Summons (17) - Fantastic targeting on a clustering power.
Wildrift Burst (23) - With potentially two different teleports this could be a trippletap.
Shuffling Thunder (23) - Melee 1 and only single target is lame

In terms of Daily powers, Wrathful Vapors deals damage to each creature adjacent to a creature you hit. When combined with a setup power or 2 to ensure 3+ creatures being adjance to each other, you are doing 3d6+Cha+X to a creature when you hit it, and 2d6+Dex+X to a creature when you hit a creature adjacent to it, 3 creatures next to each other? 3 damage instances, 4 creatures? 4xDamage, etc. Damage Now > Damage Later, so while Lightning Daggers is a fantastic power (and should be the one chosen for the level 21 Archmage Feature) it loses out to something that can outright kill creatures if you get 4+ targets grouped (you should be doing 1/4 HP damage per hit)
Other good multi-tap Dailies: Thunder Leap (5), Prime the Fire (9), Day and Night (15), Hostility Charm (15, assumes allies can OA), Aspect of the Dragon (19, with the weapon that bloodies yourself), Blackfire Serpent (19, requires Str or the Arcane Reach feat)

Frost or Radiant Vuln Abuse enables powers like Stalking Frost and Primordial Storm to be not optimal, but at least viable.

Edit: To address your latest post, Sorcerer's are a Close Range Skirmisher when played to their best strengths, and are often said to do "what the Monk is designed to do, but better". Defenses are just as big of an issue to the Skirmisher as they are to the ranged Blaster, except that the Skirmisher kills creatures faster and Dead Creatures make no attacks. It is definitely "something to build around" which is to say "it's something you should build around".

The argument about an E3 being the best power being bad is ... well, I guess that's an opinion you can have. It's true of nearly half the Classes in the game with another large chunk having their best power being a special "At-Will Basic Attack". But that's not really that bad when you consider that the classes are being given the ability to do their job properly while at an early level so they can do their job properly at all levels. People really fail to realize that monster HP scaling really outclasses PC damage, it's +8.125 HP which means a 4 round party (the assumed baseline) needs to increase at 2.0625 Damage per round per PC counting Encounter Powers; it's tough for some Strikers to keep up with that, much less the Defender, Controller, and Leader, so the Strikers have to make up the difference. Early Multi-taps give you a jump start, allowing you to focus a bit more on Defenses and Control options. One of the main reasons I dislike the Barbarian is that they don't get their good power until Paragon, and it doesn't really mesh with their main Charge tactic that they've been using for the past 12 levels, there's a reason why Fighter|Barb is an entirely better character.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Am I the only one who doesn't have a clue what you all mean by "natch" ?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Google says Natural.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Copy paste:

"natch is short for "naturally."

While learning this usually inspires a "How could I not have realized that?" reaction in many people, it remains true that many people, such as this writer, had long been puzzled by the origin and meaning of natch! before it was explained to them.


A few examples: "'Let me know, won't you?' She smiled. 'Natch'" (Saturday Evening Post, 1950); "But we got to ask, natch" (Raymond Chandler, The Long Goodbye); "A Montana stockbroker got a bear [tooled] on one boot and a bull on the other--in actual bearskin and bullhide, natch" (Reader's Digest, 1996).


The interjection natch is first recorded in the mid-1940s. In H.L. Mencken's second Supplement to The American Language, in 1948, he noted that "During the middle 1940s there was a rage for abbreviations, e.g. natch (naturally)...[but a journal] was reporting by March, 1947, that there were already 'as passé as a yearling egg.'" It is always amusing when such statements are proved false.

....that's a pointless linguistic construct if ever I saw one
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Pointless, absurd, and not good.  Noted...  >_<;

As I said, I use it mainly for nostalgic purposes, but lacking said shared history apparently it's just outright damaging.
Destructive Wizardry applied to nothing you mentioned in your damage layout of At-Will, Quicken At-Will, Lightning Daggers.

Flame Spiral, done with a Lancing Thunderbolt Weapon, is 1d10+Cha+X Slide 1 -> 1d6+X due to the slide, +1d6+X at Start of their Turn (+1d6+X for every off-turn forced movement applied to the target). That's 3+ High Damage instances. Demonsoul Bolts (From Demonskin Adept) is 3 High Damage instances to a single target from range.

And with the feat Unlucky Teleport, every power that teleports enemies becomes a +1-tap:
Chains of Fire (13) - Gets even better!
Thunder Summons (17) - Fantastic targeting on a clustering power.
Wildrift Burst (23) - With potentially two different teleports this could be a trippletap.
Shuffling Thunder (23) - Melee 1 and only single target is lame




I'm going to assume you're using mark of storm for the flame spiral triple tap?

Secondly, what exactly do you mean by unlucky teleport making all teleport powers a +1 tap? If I read the feat, it just adds +1d10 damage to all attacks that let you teleport an enemy. It's nice, but nowehere near doubling a power's power. Unless you're claiming that it's a seperate source of damage that would somehow get all of your modds added in?

I vote for "Noochie Boochies" (Jay, Mallrats 1995).
Show
Destructive Wizardry applied to nothing you mentioned in your damage layout of At-Will, Quicken At-Will, Lightning Daggers.

All of your Encounter Power choices are terrible. Strikers only work by doing multiple high damage instances to targets, and only one of the ones you picked (Primordial Storm) is even capable of doing that, and you'd need to be abusing Cold and/or Radiant in order for that to occur, you aren't. Raw Dice of damage are meaningless unless you're racking up dice per attack (10+) equal to what Chargers do, and even then you're falling behind a multi-attacker very quickly.

Flame Spiral, done with a Lancing Thunderbolt Weapon, is 1d10+Cha+X Slide 1 -> 1d6+X due to the slide, +1d6+X at Start of their Turn (+1d6+X for every off-turn forced movement applied to the target). That's 3+ High Damage instances. Demonsoul Bolts (From Demonskin Adept) is 3 High Damage instances to a single target from range. More encounter multi-taps:
Chains of Fire (13) - Requires forced movement, but that's trivial.
Dragon Tail Meditation (17) - IA's are an extra attack per round, not quite a multi-tap but still solid. IR to being moved next to is quite good until high epic where every enemy has reach.
Poisonous Evasion (17) - Requires being missed, but a burst as an IA is fun.
Rumbling Storm Bolt (23) - Requires hit, but adds solid control.
Sun and Stars (23) - Guaranteed 2 Attacks vs the target, the top choice.
Inferno Ring (23) - With Active Familiar you can damage the Primary twice.
Mother Claw (27) - This is a terrible IA since it's only Melee 1.
Chaos Infusion (27) - Not by itself, but enables Chaos Bolt and a few other powers to be.
Lightning Backlash (27) - Requires Active Familiar and hitting.
Poison Ward (27) - Potential double-tap, the "on it's turn" is Forced Movement restrictive.
Wildfire Curse (27) - You have to hit, but the 1st target can be hit twice. Chains like Chaos Bolt.

And with the feat Unlucky Teleport, every power that teleports enemies becomes a +1-tap:
Chains of Fire (13) - Gets even better!
Thunder Summons (17) - Fantastic targeting on a clustering power.
Wildrift Burst (23) - With potentially two different teleports this could be a trippletap.
Shuffling Thunder (23) - Melee 1 and only single target is lame

In terms of Daily powers, Wrathful Vapors deals damage to each creature adjacent to a creature you hit. When combined with a setup power or 2 to ensure 3+ creatures being adjance to each other, you are doing 3d6+Cha+X to a creature when you hit it, and 2d6+Dex+X to a creature when you hit a creature adjacent to it, 3 creatures next to each other? 3 damage instances, 4 creatures? 4xDamage, etc. Damage Now > Damage Later, so while Lightning Daggers is a fantastic power (and should be the one chosen for the level 21 Archmage Feature) it loses out to something that can outright kill creatures if you get 4+ targets grouped (you should be doing 1/4 HP damage per hit)
Other good multi-tap Dailies: Thunder Leap (5), Prime the Fire (9), Day and Night (15), Hostility Charm (15, assumes allies can OA), Aspect of the Dragon (19, with the weapon that bloodies yourself), Blackfire Serpent (19, requires Str or the Arcane Reach feat)

Frost or Radiant Vuln Abuse enables powers like Stalking Frost and Primordial Storm to be not optimal, but at least viable.

Edit: To address your latest post, Sorcerer's are a Close Range Skirmisher when played to their best strengths, and are often said to do "what the Monk is designed to do, but better". Defenses are just as big of an issue to the Skirmisher as they are to the ranged Blaster, except that the Skirmisher kills creatures faster and Dead Creatures make no attacks. It is definitely "something to build around" which is to say "it's something you should build around".

The argument about an E3 being the best power being bad is ... well, I guess that's an opinion you can have. It's true of nearly half the Classes in the game with another large chunk having their best power being a special "At-Will Basic Attack". But that's not really that bad when you consider that the classes are being given the ability to do their job properly while at an early level so they can do their job properly at all levels. People really fail to realize that monster HP scaling really outclasses PC damage, it's +8.125 HP which means a 4 round party (the assumed baseline) needs to increase at 2.0625 Damage per round per PC counting Encounter Powers; it's tough for some Strikers to keep up with that, much less the Defender, Controller, and Leader, so the Strikers have to make up the difference. Early Multi-taps give you a jump start, allowing you to focus a bit more on Defenses and Control options. One of the main reasons I dislike the Barbarian is that they don't get their good power until Paragon, and it doesn't really mesh with their main Charge tactic that they've been using for the past 12 levels, there's a reason why Fighter|Barb is an entirely better character.



That's...  just a phenomenal amount of useful information!  Thanks!
You think it'd be better to keep flame spiral all the way to 30?


Many people do not like that Sorcerers get what is often considered their best Encounter power ever at level 3.  It's great when you're playing only a few levels, especially after you get a few feats to add to it, but people sometimes get bored doing the same killer death spiral from level 3 - 30.

I'd tell them to play a psion.  After 30 levels of Mind Thrust/Dishearten spam, they'll see sorcs as a regular cornucopia of options.
Secondly, what exactly do you mean by unlucky teleport making all teleport powers a +1 tap? If I read the feat, it just adds +1d10 damage to all attacks that let you teleport an enemy. It's nice, but nowehere near doubling a power's power. Unless you're claiming that it's a seperate source of damage that would somehow get all of your modds added in?


His claim is that Unlucky Teleport adds a second damage roll to the power. Technically since it isn't "extra damage" he is correct that it is its own damage roll, but he is basically alone in the idea that the damage roll is part of the power (and thus gets mods). There was a Rules Q&A thread about it a month or so ago, if you want to dig it up.
Secondly, what exactly do you mean by unlucky teleport making all teleport powers a +1 tap? If I read the feat, it just adds +1d10 damage to all attacks that let you teleport an enemy. It's nice, but nowehere near doubling a power's power. Unless you're claiming that it's a seperate source of damage that would somehow get all of your modds added in?


His claim is that Unlucky Teleport adds a second damage roll to the power. Technically since it isn't "extra damage" he is correct that it is its own damage roll, but he is basically alone in the idea that the damage roll is part of the power (and thus gets mods). There was a Rules Q&A thread about it a month or so ago, if you want to dig it up.



Yeah, I can see why that's extremely scetchy.
No more sketchy than Crippling Crush (and numerous other effects including triggers off of Mark of Storm) working for more reason than "otherwise it does nothing", as well as the same reason why MKJ and Painful Oath both get converted by an elemental weapon.

The most solid argument against it in that other thread was that it mentions a trigger for the damage other than a power, and therefore isn't tied to the powers that do trigger it, which is entirely a fallicious argument. Since no one was able to provide a more logical counter argument (nor would they be able to), I stopped replying to the thread and it devolved into Plaguescarred and Mand12 repeating each other in arguments against each other.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.

Chains of Fire (13) - Gets even better!
Thunder Summons (17) - Fantastic targeting on a clustering power.
Wildrift Burst (23) - With potentially two different teleports this could be a trippletap.
Shuffling Thunder (23) - Melee 1 and only single target is lame



Res Thunder + Dest Wizardry + Admixed Starfall + Quickened Starfall = Multiple Bloodied targets
Xaos + Chains of Fire + Durance + Forced move = two target triple tap
Xaos + AP Chains of Fire + Durance + Forced move = 3 target triple tap
Xaos + AP Thunder Summons + Quickened Starfall + Thunder Stroke/Thunder Bomb = 5 dead targets
Xaos + Thunder Summons + Quickened Starfall + AP Lightning Daggers = 3 dead targets and a 4th within one hit + Free action attack for the rest of combat.

LD is the only daily in that mix.

Sorcs can do nasty things even without Spiral. 

Xaos + Chains has ... interesting interactions, because of the wording, regardless of hitting 3, you'd only be able to teleport 1 of them next to another, and only those 2 would take the damage for being separated. Durance effect's only 1 target of the attack. Summons+Quicken+Another Burst isn't outright killing 5 targets even if you manage to hit with everything, which is a stretch in and of itself. Durance is interesting though, I'm definitely doing a Xaos build (Warlock Based).

The thing about Flame Spiral is that it's Friendly auto-damage. Dice Gods don't have to be kind to you to do near-bloody damage to your targets.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Xaos + Chains has ... interesting interactions, because of the wording, regardless of hitting 3, you'd only be able to teleport 1 of them next to another, and only those 2 would take the damage for being separated.



Argueable. It depends on how far you take the extra targets language of the AP feature. I'd read it as  adding the extra shot all the way thru in the same way that Thunder Summons also does the Teleport.


Durance effect's only 1 target of the attack. Summons+Quicken+Another Burst isn't outright killing 5 targets even if you manage to hit with everything, which is a stretch in and of itself. Durance is interesting though, I'm definitely doing a Xaos build (Warlock Based).



Triple hits on 4 of the 5 targets from a Sorc will usually drop the whole set. But youre right, number 5 will only be deeply bloodied.
Xaos + Chains has ... interesting interactions, because of the wording, regardless of hitting 3, you'd only be able to teleport 1 of them next to another, and only those 2 would take the damage for being separated.



Argueable. It depends on how far you take the extra targets language of the AP feature. I'd read it as  adding the extra shot all the way thru in the same way that Thunder Summons also does the Teleport.


Not arguable. While it's certainly fair to do so, the language for Chains of Fire has nothing to do with the number of targets, if it said "if you hit both targets" then you'd have an argument, but it doesn't it says "if you hit two targets", it's the same sort of wording as Destructive Wizardry or those Assassin, changing the number of attack rolls or targets doesn't change what it does, it only changes the likelyhood of the bonus effect. With Thunder Summons, what happens to each target happens to each target.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
For anyone who is curious, I went back and completely remade this trying to follow as much of Zathris's advice as I could.  He's not a boomer anymore, he's multitap focused, all his utilities are based off the idea he's going to be in the thick of it and need insubstantial or enemy attack penalties etc.  He can't push or slide much but when it does it stacks more damage.  In the end he looks nothing like what he started like, I feel like there are a ton more problems with him that weren't addressed.

But his power selection should be better, he can focus and remove targets faster rather than spreading damage around so much, I traded promise of storm and elemental echo for draconic arrogance and concussive breath, got a theme that prones, have better paragon path powers.  I dunno, hopefully this is less cringeworthy....

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Torinn, level 30
Dragonborn, Sorcerer, Arcane Wellspring, Archspell
Build: Dragon Sorcerer
Spell Source Option: Dragon Magic
Dragon Soul Option: Dragon Soul Fire
Second Dragon Magic Option: Dragon Soul Cold
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Dragonborn Racial Power Option: Dragon Breath
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Lightning
Powerful Breath Option: Powerful Breath Charisma
Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
Theme: Primordial Adept
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 24, CON 12, DEX 13, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 28
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 14, CON 10, DEX 11, INT 10, WIS 8, CHA 18
 
 
AC: 45 Fort: 44 Ref: 35 Will: 45
HP: 185 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 47
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +21, Athletics +27, Endurance +21, Intimidate +31, Streetwise +29
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +16, Bluff +24, Diplomacy +24, Dungeoneering +15, Heal +15, History +18, Insight +15, Nature +15, Perception +15, Religion +16, Stealth +16, Thievery +16
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Primordial Adept Attack: Vezzuvu's Eruption
Dragonborn Racial Power: Dragon Breath
Sorcerer Attack 1: Burning Spray
Sorcerer Attack 1: Blazing Starfall
Sorcerer Utility 2: Dragonflame Mantle
Sorcerer Attack 3: Flame Spiral
Sorcerer Utility 6: Sudden Scales
Sorcerer Utility 10: Fog Form
Arcane Wellspring Attack 11: Twin Bolt
Arcane Wellspring Utility 12: Sorcerous Wings
Sorcerer Attack 13: Chains of Fire
Sorcerer Attack 15: Lightning Daggers
Sorcerer Utility 16: Draconic Majesty
Arcane Wellspring Attack 20: Sorcerous Metamorphosis
Sorcerer Utility 22: Wind Shape
Sorcerer Attack 25: Wrathful Vapors
Archspell Utility 26: Channel the Signature
Sorcerer Attack 27: Wildfire Curse
Sorcerer Attack 29: Entropic Whirlwind
 
FEATS
Level 1: Staff Expertise
Level 2: Superior Implement Training (Accurate staff)
Level 4: Implement Focus (Staff)
Level 6: Powerful Breath
Level 8: Unarmored Agility
Level 10: Improved Defenses
Level 11: Cyclone Warrior
Level 12: Draconic Arrogance
Level 14: Thundering Breath
Level 16: Ancient Soul
Level 18: Resounding Thunder
Level 20: Hurl Breath
Level 21: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 22: Concussive Breath
Level 24: Quickened Spellcasting
Level 26: Draconic Triumph
Level 28: Epic Resurgence
Level 30: Arcane Admixture
 
ITEMS
Accurate staff of Ruin +6 x1
Arkhosian Scepter +6 x1
Battle Harness Starweave Armor +6 x1
Executioner's Bracers (epic tier) x1
Zephyr Boots x1
Gauntlets of Blood (epic tier) x1
Helm of Ghostly Defense x1
Cloak of Distortion +6 x1
Ring of Tenacious Will x1
Ring of Free Time x1
Diamond Cincture (epic tier) x1
Handy Haversack
Lantern of Revelation
Elven Chain Shirt (epic tier)
Siberys Shard of the Mage (epic tier)
Demonskin Tattoo (epic tier) x1
====== End ======


Is the more commonly resisted fire damage (both defensively for protection, and offensively for penetration) worth dragon soul (fire) or would dragon soul (lightning) be wiser just to have the ability to recharge the dragon breath via ancient soul available?