Playtester Profile - Mellored

Excellent interview, with a lot of very specific recommendations and suggestions.  A good read!
Nice job, mellored.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I hope that Lokiare is happy. Wink

This was a pretty critical interview.  I disagree on many points but I do feel his voice needs to be heard as it does represent one playstyle viewpoint I think.



 
Yeah, I think you hit on a lot of good points, not the least of which being the thing about spellcasting options extending to non-casters. Too often, it seems like people discount stuff like that, by writing off those characters as "mundanes," but the idea of a sneaky trapsmith rogue is just as valid as a rogue who can stab someone in the back.

Also, I liked the idea of Fighters refreshing CS dice at the end of their turn, since it allows for the 4e defender feel, for those who want it, without feeling like they never get to use CS for other stuff, since they're always saving it for stuff like protect.

I am currently raising funds to run for President in 2016. Too many administrations have overlooked the international menace, that is Carmen Sandiego. I shall devote any and all necessary military resources to bring her to justice.


Also, I liked the idea of Fighters refreshing CS dice at the end of their turn, since it allows for the 4e defender feel, for those who want it, without feeling like they never get to use CS for other stuff, since they're always saving it for stuff like protect.



I agree wholeheartedly.  I'll houserule it if they don't provide that option.  But I'll also require dice be used prior to an enemy making his attack.  I think if they don't change at all mine is more than balanced given you get the dice earlier.  
I hope that Lokiare is happy.

This was a pretty critical interview.  I disagree on many points but I do feel his voice needs to be heard as it does represent one playstyle viewpoint I think.

Which ones?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I hope that Lokiare is happy.

This was a pretty critical interview.  I disagree on many points but I do feel his voice needs to be heard as it does represent one playstyle viewpoint I think.

Which ones?



You asked...

1.  I liked the first packet.  I thought all the classes were useful.
2.  I disagree that we need more hit points.  I like it as is.
3.  I have some disagreements with CS dice as they are.  There is a long thread on it.
4.  I don't want skill mastery changed number wise as you suggest.  I would limit it to a set of skills though and not all skills.
5.  I am not excited to see the Warlord.  I generally dislike oddball builds.
6.  I am happy with human-like races mostly.  Don't mind though you getting some others.

Now to be fair.  I agreed with other things you said.
1.  I agree that I want all the classes to choose from a smorgasboard of options and not be limited to a set for their class.  (Sorry Phoenix182)
2.  I agree that CS dice should reset at the end of your turn.
3.  I would like more manuevers (I definitely do not see the need to equal the number of spells at high level though).



 
Grats mellored for the interview 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Definitely one of the better interviews.

You asked...

1.  I liked the first packet.  I thought all the classes were useful.
2.  I disagree that we need more hit points.  I like it as is.
3.  I have some disagreements with CS dice as they are.  There is a long thread on it.
4.  I don't want skill mastery changed number wise as you suggest.  I would limit it to a set of skills though and not all skills.
5.  I am not excited to see the Warlord.  I generally dislike oddball builds.
6.  I am happy with human-like races mostly.  Don't mind though you getting some others.

I can take critisim 

1) I didn't mention usefulness.  I agree they where all useful.  Refrigerators are wonderful useful, but i don't go to a friends house to play with theirs.
2)  Modular hit points is a solution.
3)   I could see it using a little tweaking, but I'm not sure i can comprehend this.
4) I thought it was limited to set skills.  (i.e. the one's you trained in).
5)   Your loss IMO
6) And I don't mind you getting some more human-like races. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I thought you did a good job Mellored. You were pretty critical of the things I felt needed criticized and optimistic for the overall process. I too believe that they're taking our feedback and attempting to make the game the best it can be. All in all, well done! 

EDIT: Totally forget to say how happy I was that you mentioned limiting the requirements in Specialties/Feats. Specifically, you mentioned a Dark Warrior who took the Necromancer specialty and I think that's something I would LOVE to try out but couldn't do due to spellcasting requirments.
I enjoyed the interview, as I have enjoyed all of them. Even if I don't agree with everything the interview subjects say, seeing a well reasoned alternate viewpoint is always a good way to get a fresh perspective.

And when I agree with the interview subject - such as on the HP issue - it confirms that I am smrt and infalllible.
I thought you did a good job Mellored. You were pretty critical of the things I felt needed criticized and optimistic for the overall process. I too believe that they're taking our feedback and attempting to make the game the best it can be. All in all, well done! 



Anything I would have to say Diffan has already said.
Good interview! 
4) I thought it was limited to set skills.  (i.e. the one's you trained in).

I didn't read it like this, but it does say "When you determine the bonus for each of your skills...". This is not totally clear, I think, but Mellored's version is so much more fair.

A lot of constructive criticism.

My point of view about the playtests is close to yours, except about rogues.

I don't think that skills or sneak attack should be defining features for the rogues. After all, most rogues in fantasy start their story after having really botched a "job". Their more defining trait most of the time is how they handle the result of multiple failures. And a lot are more combat disrupters than combattants at all.

There are archetypal rogues, each with specific abilities that could special features or a specific use of a skill.
Then instead of giving to rogues access to all the skills because of the justified specific use of some of them, we should the specific archetype as its own "skill", covering the specific talents required by this archetype, with some specif features if required.

If a rogue chose something like an "Infiltrator" archetype as one of his class feature, he could use his "Infiltrator" modifier as a skill for everything covered by this archetype (open lock, find/disable trap, stealth, climb, walk on a rope), without having to learn all skills required, even the parts of the skills that are not concerned by his "studies".

This way, a rogue could be used as itself, even at tables where backgrounds or skill system are not used. 
I thought you did a good job Mellored. You were pretty critical of the things I felt needed criticized and optimistic for the overall process. I too believe that they're taking our feedback and attempting to make the game the best it can be. All in all, well done! 



Anything I would have to say Diffan has already said.
Good interview! 



Thumbs Up and a Warm Fuzzy from here too.... 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 


I don't think that skills or sneak attack should be defining features for the rogues. After all, most rogues in fantasy start their story after having really botched a "job". Their more defining trait most of the time is how they handle the result of multiple failures. And a lot are more combat disrupters than combattants at all.



Oooh!  That gives me an idea.  What if the Rogue's primary feature is a sort of "un-do" button?  Like, roll the skill, pass or fail, but if you fail you can turn the failure around in a cool way.

In one of the panels, the devs talked about Indiana Jones as being a quintessential rogue.  I'm not so sure I agree, but if thats what they are going for, lets roll with it.  There are countless times where it can be interpreted that Indy fails a skill check (or even attack rolls).  He's not failing all the time, but he does have setbacks.  Except nearly every time, he comes out of that setback in a cool and interesting way.  Granted, this is at the whims of the writer, but how would we translate that experience to the tabletop?

Maybe the rogue has a feature that allows upon failure to immediately make another skill check at a lower difficulty to do something to compensate for the failed check, so that they suffer no negative consequences to their resources, but may change game state (they still fall off the ledge, but they lose no HP, for example).  Kinda like a glorified saving throw mechanic.

Just brainstorming...

Oh, and Mellored?  Great interview!

Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.
For sure one of the longer but more constructive interviews.

It always makes me kind of sad to see someone who had a bad first time at D&D but I'm glad you came back! Introducing new players is what I like the best. 
Something else Mellored brought up that I think really needs delving into is is swapping additional d6's of Rogue's Sneak Attack die for alternative stuff. Something akin to the Ambush feats of 3E were you spend X-amount of d6 die to put status effects onto monsters. I think that would complement Fighter's Combat Superiority die fairly well.
Something else Mellored brought up that I think really needs delving into is is swapping additional d6's of Rogue's Sneak Attack die for alternative stuff. Something akin to the Ambush feats of 3E were you spend X-amount of d6 die to put status effects onto monsters. I think that would complement Fighter's Combat Superiority die fairly well.


I'm just worried that it might step on CS dice's toes a bit too much.  I mean, it'd be good for the rogue, but it's really similar.  Uniqueness is something to be valued.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Something else Mellored brought up that I think really needs delving into is is swapping additional d6's of Rogue's Sneak Attack die for alternative stuff. Something akin to the Ambush feats of 3E were you spend X-amount of d6 die to put status effects onto monsters. I think that would complement Fighter's Combat Superiority die fairly well.

I'm just worried that it might step on CS dice's toes a bit too much.  I mean, it'd be good for the rogue, but it's really similar.  Uniqueness is something to be valued.

No more then the cleric steps on the toes of the wizard.

That said, it i agree it shoudln't be used as a catch-all for martial classes.  There's other mechanics that can be used.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I think if you keep the effects different, there would no toes being stepped on. For example, much of the Fighter's CS die is focused on reducing damage (either to him/her self and others), granting disadvantage for attacks against adjacent allies, dealing more damage, knocking people around or prone. A Rogue's ambush gimmick would deal with deafening foes, blinding foes, maybe granting automatic Advantage for another's attack, adding penaltis to AC, dropping enemie's HD, reducing an enemie's movement to Zero, removing speech, etc. Think about the Rogue who sneaks up on the wizard, sure they could drain all their SA into damage and possibly drop them in 1 round OR they could subtraced a die or two and Throat Punch them, disabling their voice for a round. No voice = extreamy difficult to cast spells with verbal components (or stopping them outright).

The way in which to do this is to make Ambush style tactics work exclusively against ONE target while allowing the Fighter to affect the one or more enemies multiple times per round (via additional CS die). Also, making as little overlap as possible. Ambush maneuvers wouldn't knock prone, or disarm, or push someone back 5-feet. They disable, reduce, or render ineffective ONE specific target for a limited duration. You could even make it so the more SA die you drain into an Ambush attack effects the target longer or makes it harder to resist. A Rogue, using Throat Punch for example again, can drain 1 SA die to an attack and make it hard for the spellcaster to cast magic. Draining 2 SA di[c]e renders all spellcasting ineffective for 1 round automatically. Draining 3 SA di[c]e renders spellcasting ineffective for 2 rounds, etc...  

I don't think that skills or sneak attack should be defining features for the rogues. After all, most rogues in fantasy start their story after having really botched a "job". Their more defining trait most of the time is how they handle the result of multiple failures. And a lot are more combat disrupters than combattants at all.



Oooh!  That gives me an idea.  What if the Rogue's primary feature is a sort of "un-do" button?  Like, roll the skill, pass or fail, but if you fail you can turn the failure around in a cool way.

In one of the panels, the devs talked about Indiana Jones as being a quintessential rogue.  I'm not so sure I agree, but if thats what they are going for, lets roll with it.  There are countless times where it can be interpreted that Indy fails a skill check (or even attack rolls).  He's not failing all the time, but he does have setbacks.  Except nearly every time, he comes out of that setback in a cool and interesting way.  Granted, this is at the whims of the writer, but how would we translate that experience to the tabletop?

Maybe the rogue has a feature that allows upon failure to immediately make another skill check at a lower difficulty to do something to compensate for the failed check, so that they suffer no negative consequences to their resources, but may change game state (they still fall off the ledge, but they lose no HP, for example).  Kinda like a glorified saving throw mechanic.

Just brainstorming...

Oh, and Mellored?  Great interview!


Yes, and some rogues could be enablers, tricking enemies to open them to free attacks from allies, or tricking an enemy adjacent to the target into attacking it.

Others could be able ot dodge any attack and be able to hit back when attackers are adjacent.

Sneak attack at melee range is dangerous and courageous. And I don't think that courage and willing to take risks are the more common qualities among fantasy rogues. (Note that I totally consider swashbucklers as fighters, their fighting skills were too high for not beeing melee combat specialists).

I consider using one against the other to be a classic martial heroic move... Figher yes, Rogue yes, Warlord and Ranger hell yes ....so to tell the truth guys if CS dice cant be used for all of them lets just say I think the game will suffer from bloatitis again.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

"Figher yes, Rogue yes, Warlord and Ranger hell yes"

...and the poor Paladin presses his nose against the CS shop window...
Good interview.

It is nice to see another perspective put forward in such an articulate and precise manner.

Member of the Axis of Awesome

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Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours
"Figher yes, Rogue yes, Warlord and Ranger hell yes"

...and the poor Paladin presses his nose against the CS shop window...



lol, good thing I wansn't drinking my pop (or soda, depending on location) because it definitly would've come out my nose. Well done!
"Figher yes, Rogue yes, Warlord and Ranger hell yes"

...and the poor Paladin presses his nose against the CS shop window...




That...just.....







D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
"Figher yes, Rogue yes, Warlord and Ranger hell yes"

...and the poor Paladin presses his nose against the CS shop window...



Its a damn impolite thing to do  duddly doright wouldnt approve.... 

 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

4) I thought it was limited to set skills.  (i.e. the one's you trained in).

I didn't read it like this, but it does say "When you determine the bonus for each of your skills...". This is not totally clear, I think, but Mellored's version is so much more fair.




I do believe you have to be trained.  My suggestion was that it be limited to a "rogue" skill set that doesn't include all possible skills.
"Figher yes, Rogue yes, Warlord and Ranger hell yes"

...and the poor Paladin presses his nose against the CS shop window...



Its a damn impolite thing to do  duddly doright wouldnt approve.... 

 



I'm not a fan of everyone riding the Combat Superiority (ie. Expertise Dice) train. I mean, it's really cool and fun but I think allowing LOTS of other classes to take part in it sorta makes it.....common. I want something that makes the Fighter standout as a FIGHTER!
I like this interview. The interviewee actually pointed out things that were major problems in a way that wasn't couched in apologist speak.Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
4) I thought it was limited to set skills.  (i.e. the one's you trained in).

I didn't read it like this, but it does say "When you determine the bonus for each of your skills...". This is not totally clear, I think, but Mellored's version is so much more fair.




I think they mean the skill mastery needs to be limited to your Rogue Scheme skills and not work with your background skills...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
 Some elements of what these archetypes do are very much directly overlapping... do we have different mechanics for identical abilities?  Quite honestly the Paladin and Rangers were a fighter subclass if they had Warlords it would have been too. So why should they have dramatically different systems/resources?  The area that CS covers is an area that Martial as a whole partakes of . And I want less bloat and multiclassing to have a chance of working. Each class can/ought to have unique things they are able to accomplish with their fighting expertise ... ie each having their own styles.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

"Figher yes, Rogue yes, Warlord and Ranger hell yes"

...and the poor Paladin presses his nose against the CS shop window...


Considering the time spent in reverse, with other classes staring through the window and the shiny and more powerful paladin, I find that satisfying in a cathartic, schadenfreude kind of way.  Although, to be honest, the paladin will likely get many divine goodies.  Who knows, maybe they can turn smite into extra dice and tinker with trading them for "divine favor" in other combat regards.

Edit: @Mellored, great interview.  Lots of criticism, done in a constructive manner/tone, and praise for what worked.  I know I would have pressed the variant spells per day issue a bit further, but you at least touched on several things I had issues with.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

*sigh* forgot to comment. Good show mellored.
Good to see criticism and support.
Sorta like it's good to see explanations of what works with suggestions to fix it. 
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
Nice interview, though I strongly disagree with some of Mellored views.

First of all, thank you for saying you had just played d&d only once before 4th edition. I think you expect d&dn to match your experience of d&d, that is mainly d&d4. 

I strongly disagree on class balance. A wizard is not a fighter. A wizard has to have low HP and AC. A fighter is not a wizard, he doesn't have to prepare maneuvers from his "maneuver book" every day. Yes Mellored, some classes can be less complex than others,  it makes even better tactical combat. Think about that: What's the point of tactics when all the players characters have nearly the same HP, AC and spell-like mechanics?

Number inflation has to be avoided as much as possible in the core rules, because you know that with later releases, min/maxing and charOp, it will result in broken builds. Broken builds may be funny on a forum or a character builder, but they are no fun at all on a game table. Also, number inflation usually slows the game, it is not fixing it. High HP monsters take more time to kill, but if they still have poor AC and to-hit bonus, they respresent no threat at all and the fight ends up with being boring.

Tactical depth has nothing to do with longer fights and big numbers. In the example of the 3 hp goblin you gave, you seem to forget that you're talking about a goblin (that usually come by the dozen). Also Burning hands is not broken, it was designed to take down hordes of kobold and goblins.  It is fun and tactical, because you can't cast it  every fight and you might take your allies in the blast radius. The problem here is not the goblin HP,  it is the ability for the wizard to cast a spell without taking any risks, because the goblin has very low chances to hit or interrupt him. What makes fun and interesting combat is speed,  high level of threat and limited ressource management. I could also say simple rules (limited conditions and additions), skilled enemies (with decent AC and to-hit bonus), limited ressources (limited heal, hp, spells, expertise dices..).
Bravo.

I just about couldn't have put it better myself.

Especially that opening line about the first packet.

Bravo!     


I strongly disagree on class balance. A wizard is not a fighter. A wizard has to have low HP and AC. A fighter is not a wizard, he doesn't have to prepare maneuvers from his "maneuver book" every day. Yes Mellored, some classes can be less complex than others,  it makes even better tactical combat. Think about that: What's the point of tactics when all the players characters have nearly the same HP, AC and spell-like mechanics?



Just jumping in to point out that this is a strawman argument.  Those that are arguing for class balance a la 4e are not advocating equal AC, HP, or even the same abilities across the board.  Indeed, that would ruin tactical play (though I don't subscribe to the notion that those who want balanced play necessarily want it for tactical reasons; I for one don't care one whit about tactical play).

4e didn't have equal AC, HP, or identical abilities across the board.  What it did have was careful analysis of strengths and weaknesses, so that the weaknesses of one one class compared to another were counterbalanced by an appropriate strength.

It is clear such goals were attempted in previous editions.  Early editions had different XP tables, so classes like the fighter leveled up faster than the wizard.  3e had fighters gain bonus feats and a higher BAB, which in turn led to more attacks per round.

It is my belief, and those of others, that given the mechanical nuances to those earlier editions, those benefits were not commensurate with the weaknesses.  Or alternately, the benefits of other classes (wizards, Druids, and clerics in particular) were not commensurate to their flaws, or were easily circumvented.

It is my belief that D&D has always strived for some semblance of balance, and 4e succeeded by a fair margin where other editions failed.  This is not to say that earlier editions failed at being fun.  Merely that they failed at being balanced, which could affect the fun for some audiences. 
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging. Roll dice, not cars.