How do you feel about proxies?

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So first of all, hi.  I'm new to the forums, and I thought I would kick things off with a discussion that has been bouncing around my college campus for the last few days.  In an attempt to put a local store that abuses its customers out of business, a few students have opted to run tournaments on campus.  They have stated that they are going to run Modern, Standard, Legacy/Vintage, and EDH constructed tournies, at an entry fee of only 5 bucks.  However, they said that they are allowing any/all proxy use.

Personally, I don't like proxies.  They defeat the "collectible" part of the game, and remove the strategy of deck-building, but I wanted to see how everyone else feels.  I don't judge anyone for using proxies btw, and it's not like I think no one ever should, but I usually won't play an opponent using proxies unless it's a friend of mine testing a deck build before he goes and buys the cards.  What about all of you?
The only way i allow proxies is within a playgroup of friends and only if they own the card and just cant afford multiple ones. Its much easier to make a proxy than to go buy multiple maze of iths. But, if i went to a tournament and people were using proxies i'd call them out on it and get them to show me a real one. You cant just use stuff you dont have, that makes no sense.
Proxies in a tournament unless they're power 9 ABRU duals is a no in my book.
From a purely tactical perspective, as long as the proxies are not in some way confusing (For instance I find black & white proxies detract from my ability to quickly parse a game state because it takes me an additional few seconds per card to figure out which card it is) I don't see a problem with it.

Although it is frustrating from a human standpoint to see people using 'free' versions of something you paid (presumably a good bit) of money for, it depends on how you look at it.

If you believe that the goal of a tournament is to determine which player is the most skilled at deckbuilding and gameplay, then unlimited access to every card is a must. At higher tournament levels in real life, especially standard, it's not really an issue: Anybody playing at that level has the money anyways. But at a college? I think allowing proxies is a solid way to level the field.

After all, you're not a better deckbuilder because you can afford original duals and thus include them in your decks. I understand wanting people to have to put in the same resources you did to have the cards, but from a tournament perspective anything that removes a non-gameplay related advantage from a player is actually a Good Thing.

From a completely objective perspective, the only difference between a deck using 4 real Blood Crypts and the deck using 4 proxied ones is a little over $40. Having the money to invest in Magic does not make you in any way better as a player.


NOTE: I do not personally play with proxies and I have the standard human 'that's cheating' reaction to other people using them. That said, I completely understand why they are used and why at a nonformal tournament, especially a legacy or vintage one at the college level, you'd want to allow them.


OTHER SIDE NOTE: Wizards does not encourage or support the use of proxies. The reason for this should be blindingly obvious and is completely unrelated to my point about tournament balance. It does however mean that if you want your college tournaments to be at all sanctioned, you can't allow proxies.
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
Proxies should only be used as a stand-in for cards you're in the process of acquiring, or already own but can't put in the deck for some reason, or when playtesting a deck you honestly intend to build. They should be stand-ins, not replacements. And they should never be used in tournaments or other serious play.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Standard/Modern proxy tournaments seem like a bad idea, but it is not uncommon for 10-15 card proxy Legacy and Vintage tournaments to happen.  It is a good way to get people in to a very expensive format by allowing them to save some cash and still be able to play.  That being said, the proxies need to be of a decent quality and completely clear in what they are.
the part that annoys me is that I play with a deck which I put money and time into building.  Not only is it my own strategy, but it is also all of my own investment.  My green/white deck is probably worth about 70 bucks, so not a ton (if that, and depending on what site you use), and it does just fine.  However, all the proxy kids at my school run 150-200 dollar decks, and several of them just copy/paste the latest tourney champ deck into proxy form.  It's like, why bother playing the game? 
the part that annoys me is that I play with a deck which I put money and time into building.  Not only is it my own strategy, but it is also all of my own investment.  My green/white deck is probably worth about 70 bucks, so not a ton (if that, and depending on what site you use), and it does just fine.  However, all the proxy kids at my school run 150-200 dollar decks, and several of them just copy/paste the latest tourney champ deck into proxy form.  It's like, why bother playing the game? 


Netdecking is a completely separate issue from proxying. Would you still be angry if they ran exactly the same deck except with real cards? How about if they used expensive proxies to build decks of their own design?

Building competitive decks is expensive, especially outside of standard. Even Modern decks are hundreds of dollars at the top end. If everybody's working off of $70 like you, no problem. But if you have one person running a $500 tier one deck that he legitimately owns the cards for and everybody else is running $70 homebrews, he's going to roll you every time if he knows what he's doing.

But the issue with running decks not of their own creation is a completely separate one from proxies. Proxies help enable netdecking, but they also free you from limitations at the same time. Your GreenWhite deck can suddenly run the Armada Wurms and Temple Gardens you may not have otherwise been able to afford. Suddenly deckbuilding becomes purely about what the best combination you can devise is instead of 'what can I afford?'

As for why you'd netdeck in the first place: Not everybody is skilled at deckbuilding, and some people just don't enjoy it. They play Magic for the gameplay itself, and consider the deckbuilding aspect secondary. 
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)

and remove the strategy of deck-building


Hahahaha. Are you friggin' serious? That statement isn't only incorrect, but actually inversely correct. Prohibiting proxies allows people with more cash to throw into the game to do better than those with less money that they are able to readily spend but more skill to win.

Although it is frustrating from a human standpoint to see people using 'free' versions of something you paid (presumably a good bit) of money for, it depends on how you look at it.


Only if you're a spiteful person. If I pay $3 for lunch and someone else gets lunch for free there is no downside for me. It's even odder to feel depressed about it when you have the option yourself of getting lunch for free. Now if you're angry because you think Wizards deserves the person's money that's something completely different.
I personally believe that Netdecking and Proxying are linked, especially in Standard.  If everyone has access to every single card, then there are going to be a few specific decks that emerge as the most powerful.  Cards that aren't top tier would be eliminated completely, and there would be little variety outside of what your deck is thematically.  I, for one, love seeing variation in the decks I play.  Okay, so they are playing standard red burn deck?  What burn cards will they have?  What monsters?  Sure, they may want a Bonfire of the Damned, but that doesn't mean they have one.  If we go for Proxies, yeah, they are going to have at least 3.

As for the whole "some people just like it for gameplay", that... confuses me.  See, I believe that 90% of the strategy of the game comes from your pregame.  How you build your deck, how well you know your cards.  Once you are actually in the game, it's about watching the dominos fall.  Cards only serve there own limited function, so it's just a matter of playing the cards you get.  Doesn't require oodles of skill.  But building a deck, thinking about how each card feeds into another, and how they work off of each other.  That's where people show off their strategic prowess.  People who use deck lists and just copy/paste aren't really showing off their own skill.  They're showing off someone else's.

Let me give a concrete example: if you were to play Starcraft 2, every move you make in the game is about skill and precision.  You need to quickly and effectively determine the best strategy based on tons of factors, and you have all the tools available to you from the start.  You only have a split-second to make decisions, and evaluate strategy.  But in Magic, you do all that beforehand.  So playing the actual cards is just putting paper on the table.  If you remove the preparation aspect from the game, you really aren't doing much other than just parroting what other people do. 

Like I said, this isn't factual, it's just how I feel about it.

Did you really just say that playing Magic requires almost no skill and building a deck is essentially the only skill intensive aspect of Magic? I can't even count the number of games won or lost because of play mistakes by me or my opponent.


Also wouldn't that mean everyone would be a professional Magic player? All you have to do is buy a deck, right?

Proxies for sure have no place in a tourney except vintage 5/10/15 because P9/ABUR duals are very difficult to find.

As far as outside a tourney, I've only used them to get experience with a really expensive deck I want to build (Read : legacy Zoo). And RtR hyped me up so much I proxied cards while using the copies I got from the prerelease.
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I currently run a deck for Standard, Modern, Commander and Legacy. For standard, I have a typical, horribly budget Rakdos Deck Wins. For Modern, I have a B/G/U/W Draw-go Reanimator featuring my favorite creature, Wurmcoil Engine. For Legacy, I'm trying too hard to break Pyromancer Ascension. I also run a Naya Zoo with all the oldies. For Commander/EDH, I'm running The Mimeoplasm. A little morals thing about me, I like winning through combos, but not infinitely. However quiet, I am a Christian, so feel free to tell me you are too, it's always a relief.
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@"Putting cards on the table is just gameplay": Would you say then that Chess is a game of idiots? Gameplay itself is critical, and that's just as true for Magic. Saying that the preparation is everything implies that a new player could beat a pro 50% of the time given equally powerful decks.

@"Decks tend towards the same thing": If Bonfire is the best card for the spot, then you should be running Bonfire. To use your Starcraft II example (But without specific units because I don't know a ton about Starcraft): Let's say Unit X is the best Unit for rushing. Let's say one player can't build Unit X and has to build Unit Y instead. Yes, they're using a different card for that spot, but it's not 'creative'. Magic has the 'you must own the cards' thing because it's a product that needs to be sold. Using the lowfat budget substitute doesn't make you a better deckbuilder, it just means you couldn't afford to build the deck you wanted to.
If you want to play a format where special deckbuilding choices are required, play limited. Playing with people with money vs people who can't afford cards can sometimes end up looking like Constructed VS Sealed and that's not really a fair fight.

@"Netdecking is cheating": No, it's really not. If you are building good decks, and running them well, you shouldn't have problems facing players who are running high quality decks but playing them poorly. If you are losing to players running good decks well and complaining then honestly you sound a lot like you're telling them to use a worse strategy because your strategy isn't powerful enough.

@Sleeping: That was kinda my point. I know, logically, that there's no reason for me to be annoyed with the person who proxied his deck and not the person who didn't, but that doesn't stop the gut reaction from still being that the guy who built his deck for free is cheating somehow. Gut reactions aren't always right.
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)

@Lord_of_fuddies
Well it might be hard for your average person to acquire the Standard or Legacy deck that they want to play to. Why does Vintage get an exception just because it's harder? If you're broke everything is expensive.


Personally I love building casual decks entirely out of proxies. Then as I acquire each individual card I substitute it in. There's this feeling of accomplishment that comes with filling out a deck over time.

I see no problem in the proxies especially in the tourney your college is starting, after all that money for the tournament will probably be split up between X people so that would give everyone a chance to buy more expensive cards yanno plus $5/person is better than $15 to draft. Anyways, I see no problem netdecking since magic is more about how much $$ is in your wallet anyways
Proxies in my opinion are things that should be used sparingly, but I can understand the reasoning behind them.  I was actually considering it while building a recent creature oriented dragon deck I have: I knew the schematic I was going for, which I had designed through, and I knew what cards I had of it.  The thing was, at the time, for the finished product of a 100-card deck, I only had 60, enough to play, but was missing enough that even when I played with just what I had, the strategy seemed lacking.  Now, admittedly I didn't proxy the dragons I was missing, but that was a personal choice for me, as I seldom try to play a deck in real life without at least have 90% of the cards I'm wanting to put in, or if the cards I'm missing aren't going to take too much away from the strategy of the deck.

I seen a post earlier that mentioned that allowing proxies let "a few specific decks emerge as the more powerful."  I honestly don't see how.  If there's anything that playing a game like Magic the Gathering teaches us, it's that there is always a way to beat a deck, whether it be through loophole mechanics, specialized effect, or just how the game itself was designed.  Artifact decks are general trumped by green, massive amounts of creature are trumped by board wipes, a Graveborn deck can be trumped by a deck specializing in exiling instead of destroying.  The only thing proxies should really take out of the question for deckbuilding is the money needed for the cards, because if someone really wanted those cards for their decks, they'd find a way of obtaining them, whether it be with money or trades with other people.
I'm not trying to offend anyone, so please don't take it as trolling.  But you don't need that much of an understanding of how cards work.  Grasping the actual use of cards is the easy part for me.  Building a deck that has the right synergy without asking for help or taking from online builds, is the challenge.  Obviously a brand new player isn't going to be good enough to beat a pro, no matter what the deck build.  But an a good player vs a pro?  more about deck building than the actual play in my opinion.  Play is pretty much entirely the execution of a pre-arranged strategy. 
I'm not trying to offend anyone, so please don't take it as trolling.  But you don't need that much of an understanding of how cards work.  Grasping the actual use of cards is the easy part for me.  Building a deck that has the right synergy without asking for help or taking from online builds, is the challenge.  Obviously a brand new player isn't going to be good enough to beat a pro, no matter what the deck build.  But an a good player vs a pro?  more about deck building than the actual play in my opinion.  Play is pretty much entirely the execution of a pre-arranged strategy. 


You don't need an understanding of how cards work to be able to cast them, but the higher up you go the more complex the decks get and the more important it becomes to know exactly when to cast what. Better decks do give better safety nets for poor play - Delver of Secrets and Geist of Saint Traft are both very powerful cards which will sometimes allow you to win games even if you make several mistakes - but when playing against skilled players you'll have to do more than the bare minimum.

Incidentally, this is where the ability to proxy comes in: If you are a skilled deck builder, as you claim, the benefits you reap from being able to use the best cards for every slot should allow you to be significantly more prepared than you would otherwise be. When everybody is able to run better decks, the advantage provided by running a netdeck shrinks rapidly because the distance between 'best deck' and 'next best deck' becomes smaller. 
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
While I dislike some stores and/or store owners, I don't think the answer is to proxy everything. There are other stores to choose from (depending on which area you're from) and if not then there are still alternatives such as ordering your cards from online vendors or buying from other players.

I don't mind playing against proxies. I've done it with people deck testing a future deck or whatever. I'm a person who hasn't played a competitive magic game in over 2 years thanks to the increased cost of standard. Still as much as I would like to be competitive in standard tournaments I've never proxied anything. Either I'm a MtG player and I can afford to play or I can't afford it and I'll spend my money elsewhere.

I'm not there in that situation on that campus and with that store owner so I won't judge the decisions of those players who have chosen to run their own tournaments with proxies. If they were nice and enjoyable people I might even join them for the games and companionship but my decks wouldn't have proxies. I'd rather have 1 tarmogoyf and 3 strangleroot geist (or whatever the next best two drop is for that particular decklist) than 1 tarmogoyf and 3 goyf proxies.
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@Lord_of_fuddies
Well it might be hard for your average person to acquire the Standard or Legacy deck that they want to play to. Why does Vintage get an exception just because it's harder? If you're broke everything is expensive.


Personally I love building casual decks entirely out of proxies. Then as I acquire each individual card I substitute it in. There's this feeling of accomplishment that comes with filling out a deck over time.





There is, I feel, a difference between I'm gonna proxy 3-4 Bonfires and 4 snappies I'll never get in my standard deck between....... Black Lotus is at the very least $1k and the moxen trail it. There is an honest difference between finding then buying (BL + moxen = $4k-$6k and are typically very hard to find that some tournaments allow them to be proxied because of the shortage of them) and just saying "hey, my netdeck is proxied because I'm broke". Atm, at least in my RtR, I'm playtesting an approximately $150 Izzet deck because I plan to play with it and tweak it with my proxies.

Actually, I know how "filling" a deck feels, it's absolutely great =).

As far as my Zoo as well, I'm "trying" (read failing) a Goyf-less build but it has proxies (AKA fetches and the other spells I haven't had the chance to get yet). I gave it some proxies to have a difference between casual legacy and "serious" casual legacy.

*Phew*

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I currently run a deck for Standard, Modern, Commander and Legacy. For standard, I have a typical, horribly budget Rakdos Deck Wins. For Modern, I have a B/G/U/W Draw-go Reanimator featuring my favorite creature, Wurmcoil Engine. For Legacy, I'm trying too hard to break Pyromancer Ascension. I also run a Naya Zoo with all the oldies. For Commander/EDH, I'm running The Mimeoplasm. A little morals thing about me, I like winning through combos, but not infinitely. However quiet, I am a Christian, so feel free to tell me you are too, it's always a relief.
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My playgroup allows a certain amount of proxies as long as it's for testing a deck you might build or a small amount for cards you're trying to aquire.
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There is, I feel, a difference between I'm gonna proxy 3-4 Bonfires and 4 snappies I'll never get in my standard deck between....... Black Lotus is at the very least $1k and the moxen trail it. There is an honest difference between finding then buying (BL + moxen = $4k-$6k and are typically very hard to find that some tournaments allow them to be proxied because of the shortage of them) and just saying "hey, my netdeck is proxied because I'm broke". Atm, at least in my RtR, I'm playtesting an approximately $150 Izzet deck because I plan to play with it and tweak it with my proxies.


There is a difference involved with Proxies, but I don't think it's where you think it is. The proxy problem comes up when nobody else was building decks at that level. If somebody proxies up TopTierModernDeck.dec but everybody else was busy running $100 or cheaper decks, then you have a problem.

It's not the value of the proxies that matters, it's the relative value of the proxies. If the tournaments are already being played at a Tier 1 level, then proxying up a Tier 1 deck is not a problem and should not be treated as one regardless of what the deck is. (Likewise, if it's a Vintage tournament and some people are already pulling out Force of Will and Moxen, others need to be able to proxy in order to get their decks to a competitive state) The problem only shows up when the proxied decks are at a significantly higher level than any other decks.
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
Proxies are a tool, nothing more. The cut-off point for playing with them is when there is something hanging in the balance. Playing for a prize- no proxies. Playing for points, no proxies. Playing for fun- proxies are OK, as long as everyone agrees with it and it's not being abused.

In my playgroups, there are only a couple ppl that have a problem with it. The ones who spent the money and believe that has given them the "right" to win, and those that are afraid to lose because my deck is "now better than theirs".

Take this argument to the logical evolutionary end. If proxies are OK, then there is no reason to BUY the cards. If no one BUYS the cards, WotC goes under and we have no more MTG.

Take this argument to the logical evolutionary end. If proxies are OK, then there is no reason to BUY the cards. If no one BUYS the cards, WotC goes under and we have no more MTG.


I didn't bring this up because I figured it was obvious. OBVIOUSLY running proxies exclusively in the place of purchasing cards is bad for the health of the game. Obviously Wizards has a vested interest in insuring that proxies are never accepted except in the most extreme situations. (Under official rules a judge may only issue a proxy for a card damaged at that event)

Nobody here is suggesting that you should make a habit of proxying everything. What is being suggested is using proxies as a way to even the playing field between players with differing budgets.

Once again: If the only requirement to play Tarmogoyf in your Modern deck is being able and willing to spend $85 or more on one (Or otherwise acquire one) then all you're doing by allowing proxies is removing that barrier. If you believe that quantity of money spent should not in any way impact tournament success then you should be willing to at least accept why proxies could be a helpful tool.

A few notes on that:
First, I will repeat myself: For obvious completely understandable reasons it is in Wizard's interest to make sure that everybody playing on their terms is using legitimate product which Wizards has through some means received money for. Even if you buy singles, somebody somewhere had to buy the booster pack or other product it came from. Wizards receives no money for proxies.

Second: I'm not saying money is the only indicator of success. If it were you could just buy the most expensive cards, build a deck out of nothing but them, and always win. What I am saying is that good decks are built out of good cards and good cards cost more money than bad cards so a deck with a higher budget will have room for more good cards.
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
I think maybe my point was overlooked or misinterpreted. I'm not saying that proxies in certain situations are bad. The problem is, that if you look to the future, and contemplate what the end result of allowing proxies at a tourney will evolve into, it should be fairly obvious that it's a bad idea.

Using proxies to even the palying field in a COMPETITIVE environment is a BAD idea. Why? Because as soon as one person can do it, next tourney, 2 more ppl want to do it. Next tourney, 2 MORE ppl jump on the bandwagon, 3 more say well, if that's the way it's gonna go, I'm not spending the money anymore. Now, cut to the next set coming out. NO ONE has the cards yet. How many of THOSE ppl will say, OK, proxies are good to go, so why spend the cash? It's a snowball effect, that while it may not look like it's gonna hurt WotC NOW, in the end that snowball will get them.

True, no one here has suggested a deck of nothing but proxies, but that is what it COULD evolve into. The Tarmogoyf example is perfect. The issue is that as soon as it's allowed, people will TAKE ADVANTAGE of it. If people could use proxies RESPONSIBLY, then it would be great. But they will not. Because a prize is on the line, and they MUST WIN.

I thought my words conveyed the idea that I do NOT think that outcome should be decided on finacial position. But there has to be a line. A line that will stop the snowball evolution where one proxy leads to 3 more, those 4 lead to 8 more, and a year down the road, you have a tourney filled with nothing but proxied versions of the deck that won the last one. Because the vast majority of competitive ppl have no interest except winning. And if proxies will let them do that, then they are going to proxy whatever is neccasary to accomplish that goal.   

A simple way to compromise and give the ones who can't afford some of the cards: Allow 4 proxies total in a deck. 

There's a lot of good points in this thread both for and against the use of proxies. Money should NOT dictate success. Unfortunately, because there are people able and willing to spend the money (I am NOT of them, btw), certain cards cost more. But in the end, you don't NEED 4 Goyfs to win that modern tourney. 

And maybe this is all water under the bridge, because that college tourney isn't going to award any official points, it's effectively casual play among friends. And this proxy debate is really only limited to a competitive environment, where advancement is on the line. 

I didn't want to get this involved, sorry...     
Except we're not talking about any sort of official tournament. As you said, this is happening only a college as casual unsanctioned play. Casual unsanctioned play is exactly the sort of environment where proxies are unlikely to cause any serious damage. If they do for whatever reason, they can be removed. As this is a completely obscure casual event it's unlikely there will be any lasting fallout anyways. So hopefully no serious harm.

And as for the Goyf point: That was kind of what I was saying: You don't need Goyf specifically, but if you can name an archetype, I can name an expensive card that would help make it better. You wouldn't need to run that card, but you'd lose an advantage you might otherwise have had if you don't or can't.
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
My personal stance on proxies is "Don't be a jerk." Like I proxy stuff like Lightning Greaves and Darksteel Ingot until I get a chance to pick up the actual cards (And even then generally just use the proxies over the actual cards becaue I like mine better), but  if somebody tries to bust out an all proxy flash hulk it's like no. If you wanna be a jerk, invest in the actual cards (Although I'd prolly allow a few proxies  because sometimes you just can't fnd that fourth disciple. Hell, I traded a master of etherium to get the last tree of tales I needed for Bauble Bobble.
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Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
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Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
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Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.

My personal stance on proxies is "Don't be a jerk." Like I proxy stuff like Lightning Greaves and Darksteel Ingot until I get a chance to pick up the actual cards (And even then generally just use the proxies over the actual cards becaue I like mine better), but if somebody tries to bust out an all proxy flash hulk it's like no. If you wanna be a jerk, invest in the actual cards (Although I'd prolly allow a few proxies because sometimes you just can't fnd that fourth disciple. Hell, I traded a master of etherium to get the last tree of tales I needed for Bauble Bobble.


Lightning Greaves → Not jerk.


What?

'Don't be a jerk' is fine, but you can't trust people not to be, unfortunately.  I think there should be some kind of limitation on proxies and also standards for the quality of the proxies.  The tournament, I assume, is supposed to be fun for everyone.  For some people, it might not be fun to play against rich boy's $500 net deck with the $70 worth of cards they could afford.  For others, it might not be so enjoyable to sit across from a table full of Forests written on in permanent marker.  A compromise has to be found somewhere in the middle.

Personally, I don't use proxies because I only play constructed casually, but I don't mind opponents using them sparingly.  If I was to enter any kind of competitive constructed tournament, however, I would not want to play against proxied decks.

Cheeers
Using proxies to even the palying field in a COMPETITIVE environment is a BAD idea. Why? Because as soon as one person can do it, next tourney, 2 more ppl want to do it. Next tourney, 2 MORE ppl jump on the bandwagon, 3 more say well, if that's the way it's gonna go, I'm not spending the money anymore. Now, cut to the next set coming out. NO ONE has the cards yet. How many of THOSE ppl will say, OK, proxies are good to go, so why spend the cash? It's a snowball effect,


I think you missed the point of the thread. They WANT to put the local card store out of business.

Personally, as long as there was a rule saying that proxies had to be clear and easy to understand, then I would happily proxy up my dream deck and join the tournament.

~ Tim 

I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
Lightning Greaves → Not jerk.

What?



He might be talking about Commander where Lightning Greaves is considered fair and is expected to be in pretty much any deck.
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
My feelings on proxies: "Bring it on, scrub."
My feelings on proxies: "Bring it on, scrub."



That's not a scrub. A scrub is "No fair! You used Doom Blade!" Or "You used an enchantment! I'm playing black/red! Broken!"

Basically, a scrub is someone who defines "unfair" as "anything that beats me". This happens to make 56forests4woodelementals.dec unfair.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt


Lightning Greaves → Not jerk.


What?



Because I'm not slapping em on a turn three Emrakul. Though I'll grant you it is sort of a jerk deck, but I can't not build a deck once I learn Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker exists, he's so combolicious. And I can't  not include a chimney imp lock after that card got such a terrible reputation. But jerky as it may be, I went to the trouble of assembling it, I just noticed that lightning greaves was a thing, was much better than Neurok Stealthsuit in a  mono black deck, and didn't feel like tracking down the card. Although honestly splashing blue and keeping the stealth suit would probably be jerkier...). Though I do try to avoid playing it too often.

But I think I compare favorably to some guy I met at the coldsnap prerelease. Played a game of casual with him and the only other people there so far. He was like "Do you mind if I use some proxies?" which was cool of him, I guess, but once we gave the affirmative, he was like "T1 Black Lotus Mox Ruby Sol Ring" Don't even remember how that game went, but I mean really, proxying the power nine in a pickup casual game? (Which incidentally sort of ties into my argument in the netdecking thread).
Zammm = Batman. Bronies unite. "I'd call you a genius, but I'm in the room."
It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.
Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
I intensely dislike proxies.  I especially dislike poorly made proxies (like a land with a card name and a mana cost written on a basic land in sharpie).  

Proxies should never be allowed in a tournament, unless the whole point of the tournament is that everyone runs proxies and the goal is to build the best theoretical deck possible and run it.

And reading the original post again that might be what they are going for on a college campus, if so more power to them. 
You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what I create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.

Lightning Greaves → Not jerk.
What?



He might be talking about Commander where Lightning Greaves is considered fair and is expected to be in pretty much any deck.


I didn't say it was unfair. It just seems like the kind of card that would make a lot of casual matches less fun. Also Sol Ring is something "expected" in every EDH deck, and that actually is a stupid unfun card.


@RPJesus
You don't really need to netdeck to know that the power nine are good and that if you have access to them and don't care about balanced decks you should but them in almost any deck.



I didn't say it was unfair. It just seems like the kind of card that would make a lot of casual matches less fun.



Nah, that deck in general is unfun (Well, for everyone else, that's why I try to avoid playing it too much), but I mean in this case greaves was just a  stealthsuit that cost 1 less to equip.

@RPJesus
You don't really need to netdeck to know that the power nine are good and that if you have access to them and don't care about balanced decks you should but them in almost any deck.


I was talking more about the whole business casual thing. Pretty sure proxying the PowerNnine is the kind of thing you should mention a bit more specifically, so I can go "Oh, this probably isn't a good game to use the deck that has no  nonland plays before turn four besides Rings of Brighthearth and Darksteel Ingot."
Zammm = Batman. Bronies unite. "I'd call you a genius, but I'm in the room."
It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.
Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
As an avid deckbuilder, I'm disgusted by proxies.
I firmly believe in "building a deck with what you have" philosophy in magic. That's what it has been for me when I started out with friends, only cracking boosters, trading for what you want/need, build your deck with your cards and play.
It is possible to have a solid deck even with non-chase cards.
I feel for people who wants to try out funky combo stuff by proxying, but that's just magic man, if you want the cards, you should buy it. I for one don't spend a lot and only play with what I have.
I understand that I shouldn't impose my philosophy of playing magic.
But that's what it is. If you want a magic card, you should pay for it. Otherwise, if every card is accessible to everyone, then might as well make magic a free game.
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I agree when the OP says that it "destroys" the aspect of deckbuilding. Sure, people who are richer can afford more cards (not my case by the way), thus more strategy, which leads to an "unjust" state for the less rich who will have to resort to proxying.
But my point is, it "destroys" deckbuilding, in that people always target decks that are powerful, or competitive, or whatnot. I'm linking proxying and netdecking, just like the OP. And like him, I do believe that there's a link between the two. Not everytime I agree, but most of the time it does. In my experience at least (I'm not saying my experience is truth, but that's reason enough for me to believe what I believe, since I've been playing magic for around 10 years and have related these 2 phenomenon when they appear, scarcely as it may be).
I agree when the OP says that it "destroys" the aspect of deckbuilding. Sure, people who are richer can afford more cards (not my case by the way), thus more strategy, which leads to an "unjust" state for the less rich who will have to resort to proxying.
But my point is, it "destroys" deckbuilding, in that people always target decks that are powerful, or competitive, or whatnot. I'm linking proxying and netdecking, just like the OP. And like him, I do believe that there's a link between the two. Not everytime I agree, but most of the time it does. In my experience at least (I'm not saying my experience is truth, but that's reason enough for me to believe what I believe, since I've been playing magic for around 10 years and have related these 2 phenomenon when they appear, scarcely as it may be).


How does having the ability to build any deck, unrestricted by cost 'destroy' deckbuilding? I don't proxy, but I currently have reached a point where between myself and my roommate I can get access to a playset of pretty much any card in standard. As a deckbuilider, this has given me the ability to literally run a different deck every week. For the first few months after I got back into Standard (around New Phyrexia's release) I was running MonoBlackControl every week because I didn't have the cards to do anything else.

Yes, proxying enables easier netdecking, but honestly the people who will only netdeck when given access to proxies probably weren't interested in building their own decks in the first place. Player X deciding he's going to run the newest Jund build doesn't stop you from instead deciding to run Naya Seance deck. 

Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
I have replied via quick reply, but for some reason it didn't show up. I'm never gonna do that again! lol
@ Dragon_Nut : I apologize for the misunderstanding. In that regard I actually agree with you. If only all cards were available to everyone, that'd be great in terms of deckbuilding.
Your example is a good one, and I'd like to put my view on it.
You see, you say that you ran Mono Black Control all the time, because you "didn't have the card to do anything else". Of course you do, maybe they just weren't powerful. Ok I'm being a little provocative here.
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But what I actually mean about what I said is this : Unfortunately, people have to pay for their cards, they do not have access to everything, except if they pay a damn lot for the whole set. So, this is my point : People do the most with what they have. In terms of money, in terms of cards, in terms of taste, whatever!
Say a guy has 100$ budget. If he decides to build a competitive Standard deck with it, fine, that's his choice, then his "deckbuilding" options are gonna be reduced, since chase cards cost a lot.
Imagine if that guy decided to buy a bulk of uncommon+common cards (for 30-40$), and buy some cool rares with the rest of his money. That guy will have more decks at his disposal, but not be able to win as much competitive stuff (or would he?)
Imagine if there's a guy who decides to not care of all that and just draft with that money, and EVENTUALLY be able to build stuff together since he keeps his cards after draft.
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Okay, that was a little bit long, sorry. Mainly, I view proxying as "an easy way out". It's wanting what you don't have rather than playing with what you have.
As I've said, I do not wish to impose my philosophy of this card game upon others, but this is how I view it.
I hope it's clearer now.
I agree when the OP says that it "destroys" the aspect of deckbuilding. Sure, people who are richer can afford more cards (not my case by the way), thus more strategy, which leads to an "unjust" state for the less rich who will have to resort to proxying.
But my point is, it "destroys" deckbuilding, in that people always target decks that are powerful, or competitive, or whatnot. I'm linking proxying and netdecking, just like the OP. And like him, I do believe that there's a link between the two. Not everytime I agree, but most of the time it does. In my experience at least (I'm not saying my experience is truth, but that's reason enough for me to believe what I believe, since I've been playing magic for around 10 years and have related these 2 phenomenon when they appear, scarcely as it may be).


How does having the ability to build any deck, unrestricted by cost 'destroy' deckbuilding? I don't proxy, but I currently have reached a point where between myself and my roommate I can get access to a playset of pretty much any card in standard. As a deckbuilider, this has given me the ability to literally run a different deck every week. For the first few months after I got back into Standard (around New Phyrexia's release) I was running MonoBlackControl every week because I didn't have the cards to do anything else.

Yes, proxying enables easier netdecking, but honestly the people who will only netdeck when given access to proxies probably weren't interested in building their own decks in the first place. Player X deciding he's going to run the newest Jund build doesn't stop you from instead deciding to run Naya Seance deck. 




It's kind of a grey area. Proxies make deckbuilding easier. It kills the whole idea of working with what you have, replacing it with may more options, it just forsakes one type of creativity for another. Honestly, I respect working with what you have,it shows tenacity and skill with work-arounds. Tons of people can win with an unlimited card pool, fewer can win with what they happen to have. 

Also, I despise proxies in non-casual settings. Even in casual, my playgroup allows proxies only if  they are waiting for a card that they ordered, or if they just need to see if a card would be worth getting. But nothing that lasts more than a couple games. However, I can understand if players just want to proxy and mess around.

However, Proxying in a tournament format is an abomination (horrifically overcosted cards [power 9 etc] aside). It boils down to Corked bats: Non-regulation equipment that gives an unfair advantage. And if everyone's bat is corked, every hit is a home run and the game is no fun anymore. I say, keep the proxies to your friends, but you best not try and compete using cards you don't own.