Is a feat the equivalent of a +2 to one ability score?

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I want to make feat trees that start with feats similar to the one below. I wonder if a +2 to one ability score is too much or too little coming from a feat. Thank.

Divine Strenght
You are the descendant of a deity, a favored of a god or one of your parents was peticularly pious. This divine blessing grants you supernatural strenght.

Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken at 1st level.

Benefits: You gain a +2 divine bonus to strenght.

You cannot take this feat multiple times, but you can take similar feats that affect other ability scores. 
They're about the same power level.
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I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
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If you really want to compare it to other feats, try looking at all the benefits that the increased ability score grants as if they were the direct benefits of a feat.

So, a feat that gives +2 to Strength is essentially giving you +1 to melee attacks, at least +1 to melee damage, +1 to all Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks, slightly increased carrying capacity, a +1 to grapple checks, and so on.

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I want to make feat trees that start with feats similar to the one below. I wonder if a +2 to one ability score is too much or too little coming from a feat. Thank.

Divine Strenght
You are the descendant of a deity, a favored of a god or one of your parents was peticularly pious. This divine blessing grants you supernatural strenght.

Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken at 1st level.

Benefits: You gain a +2 divine bonus to strenght.

You cannot take this feat multiple times, but you can take similar feats that affect other ability scores. 



too much. epic feats give only +1 to a ability score, and feats of deformity of vile darkness give +2 deformity bonus but in exchange of -2 to other ability score and you need take another feat prior to take these feats.

As Slagger_the_Chuul say, a +2 in an ability score give you a lot of bonus.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
There are feats that can grant a character some aspect of having a higher ability score/modifier but a feat that outright increases an ability score +2 points is far too much.

As mentioned about your idea of a feat that gives +2 STR even if it is restricted to first level only it is twice as good as an EPIC feat, and provides all kinds of bonuses that would normally take an individual feat to use.  The +1 attack is like Skill Focus except that it applies to ALL weapons.  A +1 (or more for two-handed weapons) matches the 4th-level Fighter's Weapon Specialization pretty well especially when you consider that it is not weapon specific.  Then you have all the various skill checks and carrying capacity.  A feat that would let you consider your STR +2 higher for purposes of Encumbrance/carrying capacity would likely work but when you start getting into the other applications it is just overwhelming.
 
There are feats that can grant a character some aspect of having a higher ability score/modifier but a feat that outright increases an ability score +2 points is far too much.

As mentioned about your idea of a feat that gives +2 STR even if it is restricted to first level only it is twice as good as an EPIC feat, and provides all kinds of bonuses that would normally take an individual feat to use.  The +1 attack is like Skill Focus except that it applies to ALL weapons.  A +1 (or more for two-handed weapons) matches the 4th-level Fighter's Weapon Specialization pretty well especially when you consider that it is not weapon specific.  Then you have all the various skill checks and carrying capacity.  A feat that would let you consider your STR +2 higher for purposes of Encumbrance/carrying capacity would likely work but when you start getting into the other applications it is just overwhelming.
 

Right StevenO, maybe like the spellcasting prodigy feat (in 3.5 this feats not is restricted to lv 1 character Pag 64 PG to Faerun), you can give the character +2 Str but ONLY for attacks and damage rolls but still only be taken at level 1
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Right StevenO, maybe like the spellcasting prodigy feat (in 3.5 this feats not is restricted to lv 1 character Pag 64 PG to Faerun), you can give the character +2 Str but ONLY for attacks and damage rolls but still only be taken at level 1


HELL NO.

I'd say that 95%+ of the reason a character wants a higher STR score is for the increase in attack and damage for melee attack.  As I was already saying that would make the feat superior to multiple feats and many of those feats even have prereqs.

Spellcasting Prodigy should eventually give a spellcaster an "extra" bonus spell slot of a level higher then he'd normally get which may be big but it is also a one shot thing.  Having a feat that gives treats your melee attacks as if they were made with STR +2 would get used every single melee attack that character makes.  Perhaps it isn't as strong depending on how you rate a single spell vs. continous combat ability but it is still a constant thing.  If you look at level adjustments compared to CR you'll find that things which can easily be used over and over again are worth more to a PC (Level Adjustment) then once and done things are.
 
Right StevenO, maybe like the spellcasting prodigy feat (in 3.5 this feats not is restricted to lv 1 character Pag 64 PG to Faerun), you can give the character +2 Str but ONLY for attacks and damage rolls but still only be taken at level 1


HELL NO.

I'd say that 95%+ of the reason a character wants a higher STR score is for the increase in attack and damage for melee attack.  As I was already saying that would make the feat superior to multiple feats and many of those feats even have prereqs.

Spellcasting Prodigy should eventually give a spellcaster an "extra" bonus spell slot of a level higher then he'd normally get which may be big but it is also a one shot thing.  Having a feat that gives treats your melee attacks as if they were made with STR +2 would get used every single melee attack that character makes.  Perhaps it isn't as strong depending on how you rate a single spell vs. continous combat ability but it is still a constant thing.  If you look at level adjustments compared to CR you'll find that things which can easily be used over and over again are worth more to a PC (Level Adjustment) then once and done things are.
 

in that case the feat only give you attack and damage for melee weapons type (blud, slashing, piercing).

in this way i can see a equivalent of power in this feat and the spell casting prodigy feat while the Divine Strenght be taken at level 1 and BA +1

and spell casting prodigy is too powerfull feat, why you can't se the power of extra spells and DC for a spellcasting class, a simple normal feat only give you +1 DC to a single school of magic.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
If you really want to compare it to other feats, try looking at all the benefits that the increased ability score grants as if they were the direct benefits of a feat.

So, a feat that gives +2 to Strength is essentially giving you +1 to melee attacks, at least +1 to melee damage, +1 to all Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks, slightly increased carrying capacity, a +1 to grapple checks, and so on.



This probably answers the question, Is +2 Strength equal to one Feat?

+2 Strength gives +1 to melee attacks, consider the following feat:

Weapon Focus: Choose one type of weapon, You gain +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon, You can gain this feat multiple times. It's effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon

So if your character has a proficencie in 60 different weapons, then this feat would be equal to at least 60 Feats

Then again Weapon Specialization is +2, so it is only half the feat, but it applies to every weapon and not just 1, so lets say 30 more feats, making the total of 90 feats.

And gives a +1 to all strength related skills, +1 to avoid tripping. Increased Carrying capacity, +1 to Sunder......

And on top of this, it stacks with all the feats that already do this (weapon focus, Weapon Specialization, Athletic, Acrobatic, Improved Bullrush, Overun, etc etc) Plus it stacks with magic items that improve your Abnility score.

So technically you could say it is worth a 100 feats
You could of course balance it with limitations and drawbacks: For instance, while +2 Strength is huge:

+2 Strength for Skills and Carrying Capacity, because it is only +1 to Strength related skill checks and roughly +8 lbs to a light load, +20 to heavy load, it's not a big deal.
in that case the feat only give you attack and damage for melee weapons type (blud, slashing, piercing).

in this way i can see a equivalent of power in this feat and the spell casting prodigy feat while the Divine Strenght be taken at level 1 and BA +1

and spell casting prodigy is too powerfull feat, why you can't se the power of extra spells and DC for a spellcasting class, a simple normal feat only give you +1 DC to a single school of magic.


It makes little sense to say that something gives you an effective +2 STR increase but only when wielding a weapon with a specific damage type.  How is that going to work with weapons that have multiple damage types at the same time?  "Oh, your morningstar deals piercing and bludgeoning damage so you get to count that effective STR bonus to your bludgeoning attack but your hitting a creature with DR10/piercing so are you going to deal bludgeoning damage and forge that attack and damage increase?"  That would be far too complicated.

As for Spellcasting Prodogy you maybe need to check that you have the most up to date source.  When I look it up all I see it doing is giving you bonus spells as if you had a higher ability score.  Check the TEXT which overrides the table.  They failed to update the table when the talent was brought into 3.5 FR (note the Realms have a number of "broken" things come from it) but the text clearly leaves off any incease to a spell's DC (note that 'clearly' means it says nothing about it with no indication that it would even need to) because it clearly was overpowered.

When it comes to "equivalents" the only STR equivalent you could justify is a feat that increases a character's encumbrance/lifting capacity and perhaps something that would improve his skill/STR checks by +1.  The attack and damage increases that would come from a higher STR score are already covered by so many other feats and abilities that it is insane to try and tack more on to it.
 
in that case the feat only give you attack and damage for melee weapons type (blud, slashing, piercing).

in this way i can see a equivalent of power in this feat and the spell casting prodigy feat while the Divine Strenght be taken at level 1 and BA +1

and spell casting prodigy is too powerfull feat, why you can't se the power of extra spells and DC for a spellcasting class, a simple normal feat only give you +1 DC to a single school of magic.


It makes little sense to say that something gives you an effective +2 STR increase but only when wielding a weapon with a specific damage type.  How is that going to work with weapons that have multiple damage types at the same time?  "Oh, your morningstar deals piercing and bludgeoning damage so you get to count that effective STR bonus to your bludgeoning attack but your hitting a creature with DR10/piercing so are you going to deal bludgeoning damage and forge that attack and damage increase?"  That would be far too complicated.

As for Spellcasting Prodogy you maybe need to check that you have the most up to date source.  When I look it up all I see it doing is giving you bonus spells as if you had a higher ability score.  Check the TEXT which overrides the table.  They failed to update the table when the talent was brought into 3.5 FR (note the Realms have a number of "broken" things come from it) but the text clearly leaves off any incease to a spell's DC (note that 'clearly' means it says nothing about it with no indication that it would even need to) because it clearly was overpowered.

When it comes to "equivalents" the only STR equivalent you could justify is a feat that increases a character's encumbrance/lifting capacity and perhaps something that would improve his skill/STR checks by +1.  The attack and damage increases that would come from a higher STR score are already covered by so many other feats and abilities that it is insane to try and tack more on to it.
 

some times the descriptions are wrong too, like the epic druid that have animal companion equal to her Druid lv.

and i dont see nothing of overpower give +1 attack and damage if you take the feat only at lv 1 and only if you have a BA+1, but for the name of the feat, maybe you can add have 2 ranks in knowledge religion and the weapon need be the deity favored weapon as requeriments too.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
I probably asked the wrong question and should have asked if a feat can be the equivalent of a +2 bonus to an ability score.

I say this because not all feat are of equal power between themselves. Some are better than others, if it weren't the case people wouldn't talk about system mastery. Another way to compare the value of feats is to compare them to magical items who are similar to them.

A dark blue ioun stone gives the alertness feat. It is worth 10,000 gp. Lesser bracers of archery are worth 5,000 gp. Less than the ioun stone, yet they give a +1 competence bonus to attack when the wearer uses a bow he is proficient with and if the PC is not proficient with bows they become proficient. The bracers are better than weapon focus and give a weaker version martial weapon proficiency. Gantlets of ogre power (+2 enhancement bonus to strenght) are worth 4,000 gp. A lot less than the 10k for the alertness feat. 


I probably asked the wrong question and should have asked if a feat can be the equivalent of a +2 bonus to an ability score.

I say this because not all feat are of equal power between themselves. Some are better than others, if it weren't the case people wouldn't talk about system mastery. Another way to compare the value of feats is to compare them to magical items who are similar to them.

A dark blue ioun stone gives the alertness feat. It is worth 10,000 gp. Lesser bracers of archery are worth 5,000 gp. Less than the ioun stone, yet they give a +1 competence bonus to attack when the wearer uses a bow he is proficient with and if the PC is not proficient with bows they become proficient. The bracers are better than weapon focus and give a weaker version martial weapon proficiency. Gantlets of ogre power (+2 enhancement bonus to strenght) are worth 4,000 gp. A lot less than the 10k for the alertness feat. 



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and a feat is superior to a extraordinary ability while the magic item is worst that a supernatural.

in standar ways a feat NEVER can be the equivalent of a +2 bonus to an ability score.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
To the OP:

A free +2 to an ability score at level 1 that stacks with everything is overpowered for 'just a feat'.


If you make it cost +1 LA, a full experience level, you're probably coming to a balance. That's basically what hobgoblins are...gaining the bonuses of elves without a con penalty, i.e. +2 Con.


If you were to apply it to the character's LOWEST ability score, it wouldn't be a problem. 

The whole 'divine bloodline' screams for a template and a level adjustment, and you can start awarding benefits based on the +LA cost.

==Aelryinth       
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Do you guys think this would still apply under Pathfinder's rules? 

Complacent humans (Dragon 320, p88) get +2 to any ability score in exchange for losing their bonus feat, losing the extra skill points, and downgrading their favored class to bard.


Faustian pacts (Fiendish Codex II, p23) rate a 1-point ability increase as slightly more valuable than an extra feat.


Personally, I wouldn't have a feat give an ability score bonus for stylistic reasons.


You might want to look at the divine fervor, divine fortification, divine fury, and god touched feats (Dragon 305, p42). They're horribly implemented but may give you some ideas.

Do you guys think this would still apply under Pathfinder's rules? 

Pathfinder stays close to 3.5.


If you're talking humans in Pathfinder, just give them +1 LA and make them Azlanti humans, +2 all stats. Problem solved.

==Aelryinth   
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
It might be worth a start to consider having a feat that gives +2/-2 to two scores. The problem with that is any player whose class does not use Charisma for class abilities will put the -2 in Charisma and not be hurt at all. The -2 in any other ability score matters: -1 to hit or damage or AC or initiative or hit points or skill points or saving throw. Therefore, you need to stipulate Charisma can't be chosen for the -2. It's still more powerful than a lot of feats, but that's not necessarily a bad thing if you are accepting of the power level for the game and you can get over it that some feats will never be taken.

Edit: An arcane caster could put the -2 in Strength and also not be hurt so bad. You'll need to have carrying capacity be a factor in the game. If this will bother you then this concept just won't work.
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It might be worth a start to consider having a feat that gives +2/-2 to two scores. The problem with that is any player whose class does not use Charisma for class abilities will put the -2 in Charisma and not be hurt at all. The -2 in any other ability score matters: -1 to hit or damage or AC or initiative or hit points or skill points or saving throw. Therefore, you need to stipulate Charisma can't be chosen for the -2. It's still more powerful than a lot of feats, but that's not necessarily a bad thing if you are accepting of the power level for the game and you can get over it that some feats will never be taken.

Edit: An arcane caster could put the -2 in Strength and also not be hurt so bad. You'll need to have carrying capacity be a factor in the game. If this will bother you then this concept just won't work.

use the examples of book of vile darkness, you don't substract a -2 in any, is specific depending in what ability you want a +2 and still this feats need a prerequisite feat.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
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