Multiclass Character Build Ideas.

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Alright, so I'm playing in a eleventh (possible twelfth) level campaign and the threat of dying is becoming more threatening with each battle. So I thought it was high time to make a back up character just in case the worst was to happen.

We are allowed to use any of the 3.5 books with a 36 point buy system, and the backup character must be one level lower than the original character. I get all the starting gold from being a Ninth level character as well. My plan is to stay away from races that give any level adjustment or start with monstorous levels/hit die. Also, I really want to do multi-classing out since it adds versatility as well as be some sort of caster/melee character. I usually only play melee combatants and casters have always intrigued me. On the contrary, I don't want to run into battle and die in two hits from the monsters we'll be facing.

This is the only thing I've come up with so far.

Cleric - 5 / Wizard - 4 or Cleric - 3 / Wizard - 3 / Geomancer - 3

Feats - Practiced Spellcaster, and the rest are yet to be determined

Abilities - 16, 16, 14, 12, 12, 10 is the best combo I've found so far. Not assigned in any order yet though.

As far as our current party goes we have the following

8th level Wu Jen Pixie - ECL of 11

3rd level Rogue Doppleganger - ECL of 11 (4 monstorous hit die factored in)

6th level Dragon Shaman / 1st level Rogue Half-Dragon Halfing - ECL of 10 (The Half-Dragon template was acquired in the campaign as well as the dragon shaman class due to certain events.)

The Wu Jen does a lot of spell abilites and significant damage. But most of the time is worried about hititng other party members and can't fill as a sufficient buffing character since they are focused more on damage. The doppleganger, literally, dies almost every encounter and is a relitively new player and can't really take advantage of the Doppleganger's natural abilities. And with my Dragon Shaman I'm not allowed to use weapons and with my small size my natural attacks don't do much. We rely heavily off of the output of damage from Cone of Fire (Half-dragon ability, not coming from the Dragon Shaman) and the Pixie's burst. But once she has expanded all of her spells our damage basically drops to next to nothing. That and we have only the Dragon Shaman's touch of vitality once a day for healing.

So, ideas and builds you've come up with in the past would be helpful. Or if you just want to comment or have questions about the campaign that is fine as well. Also, if you need aditional information just let me know and I'll fill you in as needed. Hopefully I've got it all, though, it is early morning after our late night session and I have yet to sleep.
There is a lot of somewhat conflicting information here.  You mention a 10th-level party yet have 11th-level (that's what ECL means) characters.  Some may disagree with this but with PB 36 you're effectively getting another +1 LA worth of stat adjustments.  Maybe your character's aren't even effective much less optimized but with what I see you are playing at a high level.

As for your proposed multiclass combos there is no easy way to say this but they suck.  A generally noted rule about multiclassing spellcasters is "thou shall not give up casting levels" and with you're build you are doing that in spades as you're giving up four or five casting levels with those builds.  It may not be very tough but a Cleric3/Wiz3/Mystic Theruge3 is only giving up 3 casting levels on each side.

If you're looking for a fighting spellcaster you could go with a cleric or druid build which can be pretty basic.  On the arcane side you'd need to be looking at one of the various "gish" builds that combine magic with martial abilities.  There are many such builds so which one is right for you will depend on what you want to emphasize.  Perhaps the most basic 9th-level "gish" would be a BattleSorcerer7/AbjurantChampion2 which has a +7 BAB and casts as a 9th-level BattleSorcerer (UA/SRD) but there are many other builds to consider including warrior2/arcanist4/Spellsword1/AbC2 which should have 7th-level casting and a +2 BAB but a whole lot more other abilities when compared to the basic BS build.
 
Ah, yeah that is my mistake it is an  eleventh level campaign. We ran two different groups in the same campaign setting. Which ended up meeting up and due to luck ended up kind of wanting to accomplish the same thing. So instead of us playing two characters a piece we just chose which of the two we wanted to play. I'll correct that. And you could be right about the +1 LA from the 36 point buy I think our DM just chose to forego that bit, but I'm not sure.

And please, be as blunt as you need to be. Like I said I'm not too skilled in creating spellcasters. So, really, I could use any help or info I could get. Also, if there is anything that needs to be explained just let me know.
There is one theurge class that's worth it: the Arcane Heirophant (Races of the Wild).  Not only does it advance spellcasting for both arcane and druid casting, but it advances class features, too.  Specifically, wild shape and your "familiar companion".  I don't know of any early entry tricks for the class, but here's how I would do it if you can't find one:

Race: Human
Abilities:  10/14/14/16/16/10 (+1 Wis at levels 4, 8, 12; +1 Int at 16 & 20)

Level 1: Druid 1 (Spell Focus (Conjuration), Able Learner*)
Level 2: Druid 2
Level 3: Druid 3 (Augment Summoning)
Level 4: Druid 4
Level 5: Druid 5
Level 6: Wizard 1 (Natural Spell, Scribe Scroll*)
Level 7: Wizard 2
Level 8: Wizard 3
Level 9-18: Arcane Heirophant 1-10 (By the end of the class, you'll have the casting, wild shape, & animal companion of a 15th-level druid and the casting & familiar of a 13th-level wizard)
Feats after level 6 don't really matter much.  You could rock Toughness for 9-18 and not really care. 
Level 19 & 20: Druid 6 & 7

I'm sure somebody will come along and improve on my ability score suggestions, but that's what I've got. 
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Alright, so I'm playing in a eleventh (possible twelfth) level campaign and the threat of dying is becoming more threatening with each battle. So I thought it was high time to make a back up character just in case the worst was to happen.

We are allowed to use any of the 3.5 books with a 36 point buy system, and the backup character must be one level lower than the original character. I get all the starting gold from being a Ninth level character as well. My plan is to stay away from races that give any level adjustment or start with monstorous levels/hit die. Also, I really want to do multi-classing out since it adds versatility as well as be some sort of caster/melee character. I usually only play melee combatants and casters have always intrigued me. On the contrary, I don't want to run into battle and die in two hits from the monsters we'll be facing.

This is the only thing I've come up with so far.

Cleric - 5 / Wizard - 4 or Cleric - 3 / Wizard - 3 / Geomancer - 3

Feats - Practiced Spellcaster, and the rest are yet to be determined

Abilities - 16, 16, 14, 12, 12, 10 is the best combo I've found so far. Not assigned in any order yet though.

As far as our current party goes we have the following

8th level Wu Jen Pixie - ECL of 11

3rd level Rogue Doppleganger - ECL of 11 (4 monstorous hit die factored in)

6th level Dragon Shaman / 1st level Rogue Half-Dragon Halfing - ECL of 10 (The Half-Dragon template was acquired in the campaign as well as the dragon shaman class due to certain events.)

The Wu Jen does a lot of spell abilites and significant damage. But most of the time is worried about hititng other party members and can't fill as a sufficient buffing character since they are focused more on damage. The doppleganger, literally, dies almost every encounter and is a relitively new player and can't really take advantage of the Doppleganger's natural abilities. And with my Dragon Shaman I'm not allowed to use weapons and with my small size my natural attacks don't do much. We rely heavily off of the output of damage from Cone of Fire (Half-dragon ability, not coming from the Dragon Shaman) and the Pixie's burst. But once she has expanded all of her spells our damage basically drops to next to nothing. That and we have only the Dragon Shaman's touch of vitality once a day for healing.

So, ideas and builds you've come up with in the past would be helpful. Or if you just want to comment or have questions about the campaign that is fine as well. Also, if you need aditional information just let me know and I'll fill you in as needed. Hopefully I've got it all, though, it is early morning after our late night session and I have yet to sleep.


why you dont start with the duskblade is a sorserer/fighter combination in a basic class in the player handbook 2 and is ideal if you are starting with magic things.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
There is one theurge class that's worth it: the Arcane Heirophant (Races of the Wild).  ... 


It depends on what you consider "worth it" because I believe there are a couple more that can get you enough to make up for losing some casting levels.  They're both in the Complete Mage.  I think Ultimate Magus can definitely combine prepared (Wizard) and spontaneous (Sorcerer, Beguiler, and others) arcane spellcasting effectively although you probably want to use the Practiced Spellcaster "trick" to enable a 18/9 or 17/10 casting split at 20th level.  I also like the Cleric/Warlock PrC which may only advance not advance one class all ten levels but which can work pretty well; the downside to it is that many people consider the Warlock to be a horrible class especially after the early levels.
 
There is one theurge class that's worth it: the Arcane Heirophant (Races of the Wild).  ... 

It depends on what you consider "worth it" because I believe there are a couple more that can get you enough to make up for losing some casting levels.  They're both in the Complete Mage.  I think Ultimate Magus can definitely combine prepared (Wizard) and spontaneous (Sorcerer, Beguiler, and others) arcane spellcasting effectively although you probably want to use the Practiced Spellcaster "trick" to enable a 18/9 or 17/10 casting split at 20th level.  I also like the Cleric/Warlock PrC which may only advance not advance one class all ten levels but which can work pretty well; the downside to it is that many people consider the Warlock to be a horrible class especially after the early levels. 

Ultimate Magus is good, but I figured he wanted two different kinds of casting.  And I'm not familiar enough with Warlocks to have included them.  
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
3.5

StevenO beat me to the punch with Battle Sorcerer.  I've used that as the "core" class for 3 of my bbeg's so far (the group prefers PC's to be pure core).  But yeah, using the Battle Sorcerer, I've made a BS/Arcane Archer, a BS/Eldritch Knight, and currently a BS/Dragon Disciple, each of which has torn the party to shreds (along with appropriate minions/adventures, of course) time and time again, and gotten away to fight another day multiple times, so that when the party finally does slay the bbeg, they REALLY feel like they won a MAJOR triumph.

Neue 
3.5

StevenO beat me to the punch with Battle Sorcerer.  I've used that as the "core" class for 3 of my bbeg's so far (the group prefers PC's to be pure core).  But yeah, using the Battle Sorcerer, I've made a BS/Arcane Archer, a BS/Eldritch Knight, and currently a BS/Dragon Disciple, each of which has torn the party to shreds (along with appropriate minions/adventures, of course) time and time again, and gotten away to fight another day multiple times, so that when the party finally does slay the bbeg, they REALLY feel like they won a MAJOR triumph.

Neue 

if you going to multiclass into a magic/battle character use the BS not is the best option because her Spell Know have one less than normal, you can cast lv 2 spells for yourself until lv 5, is better use a basic spell casting class then multiclass in a battle class and at lv 6 or 7 take a prestige class like the eldritsh knight or the Abjurant champion (lv 10) or maybe the disciple of the green star.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

You mention that your group's only caster doesn't do much buffing. One option would be to make a caster focused on buffing. The war weaver prestige class (Heroes of Battle) would get four buffs onto your party members as a move action at the start of battle. It also lets you use single-target buffs on multiple allies and increases touch-range buffs to close range.

if you going to multiclass into a magic/battle character use the BS not is the best option because her Spell Know have one less than normal, you can cast lv 2 spells for yourself until lv 5, is better use a basic spell casting class then multiclass in a battle class and at lv 6 or 7 take a prestige class like the eldritsh knight or the Abjurant champion (lv 10) or maybe the disciple of the green star.

Except for one key difference, Oma: with a Battle Sorceror, YOU DON'T LOSE CASTER LEVELS.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
if you going to multiclass into a magic/battle character use the BS not is the best option because her Spell Know have one less than normal, you can cast lv 2 spells for yourself until lv 5, is better use a basic spell casting class then multiclass in a battle class and at lv 6 or 7 take a prestige class like the eldritsh knight or the Abjurant champion (lv 10) or maybe the disciple of the green star.

Except for one key difference, Oma: with a Battle Sorceror, YOU DON'T LOSE CASTER LEVELS.

¬¬ practiced spell caster feat.

at lv 20 you will have a character with BA +16 CL 20, and if you going to say that the feats is too much cost, the battle class maybe give you feats or special abilities.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Exactly, Draco!  

That BBEG was:  

Build: F1/BS6/EK10/BS3   


[BAB 17, CL 18]


 
simple example

Humand Fighter 3/Wu jen 5/ELDRITCH KNIGHT 1 (array 15/14/14/16/12/10)

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 17
Wis 12
Cha 10

BA +6
Ini +2
HP 63

feats
H- Heroic Destiny
Lv1- Improved Toughness
Lv3- Practiced Spell Caster (Wu jen)
Lv6- Fearless Destiny
Lv9- Somatic Weponry
F1- Exotic weapon (goliath greathammer)
F2- Weapon Focus (goliath greathammer)
Wj1- Extend Spell
EK1- Combat Expertise

Abilities
Watchful spirit
Spell secret

Spells form 0 to 3 CL 9: 4/4/3/2 DC 13+ Spell Lv

Saves
F  8=6+2
R  4=2+2
W 8=7+1

AC 12 = 10+2

Attack
goliath greathammer +10/+5 1d12+4

Skills
Jump +9
Climb +9
Swim +9
Use Magic Divice +3
Speack Lenguage 3
Tumble +5
Concentration +14
Spellcraft +15
Knowledge Arcana +15

Now the same Example with a BS
Human Battle Sorserer 9 (array 15/14/14/10/12/16)

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 17

BA+6
Ini +2
HP 74

Feats
H- Spell Casting Prodigy (BS)
lv1- Still Spell
lv3- Split Spell
lv6- Improved Toughness
lv9- Rapid Metamagic

Abilities
Summon Familiar (toad)

Spells form 0 to 4 CL 9: 5/6/6/6/4 DC 14+ Spell Lv

Spells Know form 0 to 4 CL 9: 7/4/3/2/1

Saves
F  5=3+2
R  5=3+2
W 7=6+1

AC 16 = 10+2+4 (Armor)

Attack
Long Sword +9/+4 1d8+3

Skills
Concentration +14
Spellcraft +12
Knowledge Arcana +12
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
if you going to multiclass into a magic/battle character use the BS not is the best option because her Spell Know have one less than normal, you can cast lv 2 spells for yourself until lv 5, is better use a basic spell casting class then multiclass in a battle class and at lv 6 or 7 take a prestige class like the eldritsh knight or the Abjurant champion (lv 10) or maybe the disciple of the green star.

Except for one key difference, Oma: with a Battle Sorceror, YOU DON'T LOSE CASTER LEVELS.


In all fairness draco119 you can make up lost caster levels but you can NOT make up lost spellcastING levels.

Most of the time a Sorcerer 'gish' has a hard time making it to 18th-level casting at 20th-level and to compare that with someone with 20 levels of BS spellcasting the BS actually has as many 8th-level spell slots, TWO more 9th-level spell slots, and admittedly is missing a slot of 7th-level spells and lower.  When it comes to spells known the Sorcerer does know one more spell of levels up to 7th but would know the same number of 8th-level spells but one fewer 9th-level spells. 

simple example

Humand Fighter 3/Wu jen 3/ELDRITCH KNIGHT 3 (array 15/14/14/16/12/10)
Show

Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 17 Wis 12 Cha 10
BA +7 Ini +2 HP 65

feats
H- Heroic Destiny
Lv1- Improved Toughness
Lv3- Practiced Spell Caster (Wu jen)
Lv6- Fearless Destiny
Lv9- Somatic Weponry
F1- Exotic weapon (goliath greathammer) 
F2- Weapon Focus (goliath greathammer)
Wj1- Extend Spell
EK1- Combat Expertise

Abilities
Watchful spirit
Spell secret 

Spells form 0 to 3 CL 9: 4/4/3/2 DC 13+ Spell Lv

Saves: F  9=7+2, R  5=3+2, W 6=5+1
AC 12 = 10+2

Attack:  goliath greathammer +11/+6 1d12+4

Skills
Jump +9
Climb +9
Swim +9
Use Magic Divice +3
Speack Lenguage 3
Tumble +5
Concentration +14
Spellcraft +15
Knowledge Arcana +15

Now the same Example with a BS
Human Battle Sorserer 9 (array 15/14/14/10/12/16)
Show

Str 16,Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 17

BA+6, Ini +2, HP 74

Feats
H- Spell Casting Prodigy (BS)
lv1- Still Spell
lv3- Split Spell
lv6- Improved Toughness
lv9- Rapid Metamagic

Abilities
Summon Familiar (toad)

Spells form 0 to 4 CL 9: 5/6/6/6/4 DC 14+ Spell Lv

Spells Know form 0 to 4 CL 9: 7/4/3/2/1

Saves: F  5=3+2, R  5=3+2, W 7=6+1

AC 16 = 10+2+4 (Armor)

Attack:  Long Sword +9/+4 1d8+3

Skills
Concentration +14
Spellcraft +15
Knowledge Arcana +15


Oma, why are you using such a wierd "example" to make your point?  Wu Jen isn't a commonly seen class so maybe you should just try to redo the sample using Wizard instead.  If you're trying to prove a point it is usually best to make two characters who utilize many of the same things instead of trying to compare apple to oranges.

Also, how is that first sample character getting into Eldritch Knight?  Are you forgetting the EK requires the ability to cast 3rd-level spells before you can enter it?  To 99% of the population that means you need at least FIVE casting levels as Wizard to meet.  To most people the "basics" for a 9th-level EK are going to be Ftr1/Wiz5/EK3 which has a +6 BAB and casts as a 7th-level wizard with 4,3,2,1 spells per day from levels 1-4; Practices spellcaster would give those spells a little more punch but it doesn't actually give any more spells.

I will also comment about how poorly you built that BattleSorcer.  WHY are you taking things like Still Spell (you already avoid ASF when in light armor) and Rapid Metamagic.  Although it may be painful he does want to take Combat Casting so he can enter Abjurant Champion at 8th-level for a BS7/AbC2 build.  That build happens to have a +7 BAB and casts as a 9th-level Battle Sorcerer giving it 5,5,5,3 slots of spell levels 1-4 with knows spells of 4,3,2,1.

In this basic comparison the EK actually should have slight edge when it comes to the variety of spells it can bring (it's bonus spells could be something else) although the BS could "know" every spell a wizard would prepare in the normal slots but use them all more times while picking and choosing.  The BS may be a feat or two behind but can cast in armor, has a +7 BAB vs. the +6, and is getting the wonderfulness that is AbC.  Admittedly, EK is not a great class but you can see that a BS build holds up just fine when compared to many other "gish" builds.
 
if you going to multiclass into a magic/battle character use the BS not is the best option because her Spell Know have one less than normal, you can cast lv 2 spells for yourself until lv 5, is better use a basic spell casting class then multiclass in a battle class and at lv 6 or 7 take a prestige class like the eldritsh knight or the Abjurant champion (lv 10) or maybe the disciple of the green star.

Except for one key difference, Oma: with a Battle Sorceror, YOU DON'T LOSE CASTER LEVELS.


In all fairness draco119 you can make up lost caster levels but you can NOT make up lost spellcastING levels.

Most of the time a Sorcerer 'gish' has a hard time making it to 18th-level casting at 20th-level and to compare that with someone with 20 levels of BS spellcasting the BS actually has as many 8th-level spell slots, TWO more 9th-level spell slots, and admittedly is missing a slot of 7th-level spells and lower.  When it comes to spells known the Sorcerer does know one more spell of levels up to 7th but would know the same number of 8th-level spells but one fewer 9th-level spells. 

simple example

Humand Fighter 3/Wu jen 3/ELDRITCH KNIGHT 3 (array 15/14/14/16/12/10)
Show

Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 17 Wis 12 Cha 10
BA +7 Ini +2 HP 65

feats
H- Heroic Destiny
Lv1- Improved Toughness
Lv3- Practiced Spell Caster (Wu jen)
Lv6- Fearless Destiny
Lv9- Somatic Weponry
F1- Exotic weapon (goliath greathammer) 
F2- Weapon Focus (goliath greathammer)
Wj1- Extend Spell
EK1- Combat Expertise

Abilities
Watchful spirit
Spell secret 

Spells form 0 to 3 CL 9: 4/4/3/2 DC 13+ Spell Lv

Saves: F  9=7+2, R  5=3+2, W 6=5+1
AC 12 = 10+2

Attack:  goliath greathammer +11/+6 1d12+4

Skills
Jump +9
Climb +9
Swim +9
Use Magic Divice +3
Speack Lenguage 3
Tumble +5
Concentration +14
Spellcraft +15
Knowledge Arcana +15

Now the same Example with a BS
Human Battle Sorserer 9 (array 15/14/14/10/12/16)
Show

Str 16,Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 17

BA+6, Ini +2, HP 74

Feats
H- Spell Casting Prodigy (BS)
lv1- Still Spell
lv3- Split Spell
lv6- Improved Toughness
lv9- Rapid Metamagic

Abilities
Summon Familiar (toad)

Spells form 0 to 4 CL 9: 5/6/6/6/4 DC 14+ Spell Lv

Spells Know form 0 to 4 CL 9: 7/4/3/2/1

Saves: F  5=3+2, R  5=3+2, W 7=6+1

AC 16 = 10+2+4 (Armor)

Attack:  Long Sword +9/+4 1d8+3

Skills
Concentration +14
Spellcraft +15
Knowledge Arcana +15


Oma, why are you using such a wierd "example" to make your point?  Wu Jen isn't a commonly seen class so maybe you should just try to redo the sample using Wizard instead.  If you're trying to prove a point it is usually best to make two characters who utilize many of the same things instead of trying to compare apple to oranges.

Also, how is that first sample character getting into Eldritch Knight?  Are you forgetting the EK requires the ability to cast 3rd-level spells before you can enter it?  To 99% of the population that means you need at least FIVE casting levels as Wizard to meet.  To most people the "basics" for a 9th-level EK are going to be Ftr1/Wiz5/EK3 which has a +6 BAB and casts as a 7th-level wizard with 4,3,2,1 spells per day from levels 1-4; Practices spellcaster would give those spells a little more punch but it doesn't actually give any more spells.

I will also comment about how poorly you built that BattleSorcer.  WHY are you taking things like Still Spell (you already avoid ASF when in light armor) and Rapid Metamagic.  Although it may be painful he does want to take Combat Casting so he can enter Abjurant Champion at 8th-level for a BS7/AbC2 build.  That build happens to have a +7 BAB and casts as a 9th-level Battle Sorcerer giving it 5,5,5,3 slots of spell levels 1-4 with knows spells of 4,3,2,1.

In this basic comparison the EK actually should have slight edge when it comes to the variety of spells it can bring (it's bonus spells could be something else) although the BS could "know" every spell a wizard would prepare in the normal slots but use them all more times while picking and choosing.  The BS may be a feat or two behind but can cast in armor, has a +7 BAB vs. the +6, and is getting the wonderfulness that is AbC.  Admittedly, EK is not a great class but you can see that a BS build holds up just fine when compared to many other "gish" builds.
 

yes i was making lv 20 characters but i was remember that he need a lv 9 and i was miss the entry requeriments, i was remember that need cast lv 3 for it the example was casting lv 3 but i repair the example before you mention.

The BS know too low spells to waste it in Abjuration Spells.

The spells come with bonus spells.

Wu jen have a lot of spells for melee characters.

Still spell is very necesary because grapple is devastating in a caster.

And many armors have non ASF and A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
3.5

StevenO beat me to the punch with Battle Sorcerer.  I've used that as the "core" class for 3 of my bbeg's so far (the group prefers PC's to be pure core).  But yeah, using the Battle Sorcerer, I've made a BS/Arcane Archer, a BS/Eldritch Knight, and currently a BS/Dragon Disciple, each of which has torn the party to shreds (along with appropriate minions/adventures, of course) time and time again, and gotten away to fight another day multiple times, so that when the party finally does slay the bbeg, they REALLY feel like they won a MAJOR triumph.

Neue 

In all fairness BS/EK is a poor idea for the most part.  At 20th-level a BS12/EK8 does get +17 BAB and a feat but spellcasting at 19th-level while a BS20 only gets +15 BAB and misses that feat in exchange for knowing one more 9th-level spell and having two more 9th-level slots available.  Although somemore optimization could/should be done a BS15/AbC5 has a +16 BAB (that's all what it takes for four attacks) but full spellcasting and all the benefits of AbC although AbC does have a feat requirement.

I would say that BattleSorcerer may be the best fit for Arcane Archer.  You can enter AA from BS8 which gives you up to 4th-level spells to use when you get Imbue Arrow which some people consider to be the entire reason you take AA.  While I'd probably fit in some Abjurant Champion or other class that increases BAB and spellcasting at 18th-level a BS8/AA10 has a +16 BAB although it still only casts as a 8th-level BS.

When it comes to the Dragon Disciple I believe there are two basic ways a person want to go to meet the PrC's spellcasting requirement.  One is Duskblade (to various degrees) which can give you lots of low level slots to work with.  The other is behind BS4 which will get you into the 2nd-level spell slots if you want DD to provide a bit more boost to casting.  There are other crazier ways to utilize DD with spellcasting although some of they carry into epic levels.


First let me number this to simplify my responses
1. yes i was making lv 20 characters but i was remember that he need a lv 9 and i was miss the entry requeriments, i was remember that need cast lv 3 for it the example was casting lv 3 but i repair the example before you mention.

2. The BS know to low spells to waste it in Abjuration Spells.

3. The spells come with bonus spells.

4. Wu jen have a lot of spells for melee characters.

5. Still spell is very necesary because grapple is devastating in a caster.

6. And many armors have non ASF and A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.


1.  Then do your homework before you start posting.  I'll also say there is no way to know when you "fixed" your post to avoid the major error.  This is why you should do statblocks long hand.

2.  Abjuration spells a waste?  When you just need one to get you into AbC (Shield works VERY nicely here) they are far from a waste and when you can cast them as swift actions while enjoying free Extends they get better.  Let's not forget that Abjuration spells can stop enemy spellcasters from messing you and your party up too much.  I wouldn't devote a lot of BS slots to Abjuration spells but I'd certainly use a few of them.

3.  And bonus spell slots will apply in both examples although you may probably don't have the BS stats assigned as well as they should be.  A prepared caster's extra slots can let it prepare more spells to give it more selection then the BS would get.  However, the BS can select any of its spells to use in its slots so while it may not have as much selection it can use an especially effective selection multiple times while the prepared caster is stuck using it one and possibly being force to sit on "useless" spells.

4.  Most irrelevant to the discussion.  Spell lists may help some types more then others but using a little used base class for an example is poor manners.  If your using Wu Jen because it has better "melee" spells maybe using Cleric would be a better option.

5.  Yet you didn't give it to your Wu-Jen?  I'll point out that some of the best "escape" spells already avoid somatic components.  If you're building a BS to be more "fighter" then spellcaster you probably shouldn't be loading up on MM feats anyway.

6.  I'm not sure where this one is coming from/I don't know what this comment is a response too.  Are you just agreeing that a BS has less need for Still Spell because they can avoid ASF in light armor?

Now Oma, when you say you want to present "the same example using something different" you need to keep the two so that we can see the relationship between the examples. 
First let me number this to simplify my responses
1. yes i was making lv 20 characters but i was remember that he need a lv 9 and i was miss the entry requeriments, i was remember that need cast lv 3 for it the example was casting lv 3 but i repair the example before you mention.

2. The BS know to low spells to waste it in Abjuration Spells.

3. The spells come with bonus spells.

4. Wu jen have a lot of spells for melee characters.

5. Still spell is very necesary because grapple is devastating in a caster.

6. And many armors have non ASF and A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.


1.  Then do your homework before you start posting.  I'll also say there is no way to know when you "fixed" your post to avoid the major error.  This is why you should do statblocks long hand.

2.  Abjuration spells a waste?  When you just need one to get you into AbC (Shield works VERY nicely here) they are far from a waste and when you can cast them as swift actions while enjoying free Extends they get better.  Let's not forget that Abjuration spells can stop enemy spellcasters from messing you and your party up too much.  I wouldn't devote a lot of BS slots to Abjuration spells but I'd certainly use a few of them.

3.  And bonus spell slots will apply in both examples although you may probably don't have the BS stats assigned as well as they should be.  A prepared caster's extra slots can let it prepare more spells to give it more selection then the BS would get.  However, the BS can select any of its spells to use in its slots so while it may not have as much selection it can use an especially effective selection multiple times while the prepared caster is stuck using it one and possibly being force to sit on "useless" spells.

4.  Most irrelevant to the discussion.  Spell lists may help some types more then others but using a little used base class for an example is poor manners.  If your using Wu Jen because it has better "melee" spells maybe using Cleric would be a better option.

5.  Yet you didn't give it to your Wu-Jen?  I'll point out that some of the best "escape" spells already avoid somatic components.  If you're building a BS to be more "fighter" then spellcaster you probably shouldn't be loading up on MM feats anyway.

6.  I'm not sure where this one is coming from/I don't know what this comment is a response too.  Are you just agreeing that a BS has less need for Still Spell because they can avoid ASF in light armor?

Now Oma, when you say you want to present "the same example using something different" you need to keep the two so that we can see the relationship between the examples. 

1- i am working and i rapair it, at the time i remember the requeriments before you say it.

2- yes but at high level to accomplish other multiclass first.

3- the bonus spell are in both case.

4- gigant size and body out of body are the best for a battle caster.

5- because the wu jen have Spell secret that is the same for one spell then she can still cast a spell while a grapple, remember many of the spell have somatic components and many opponents have a lot of BA and STR like a dragon and with rapid spell you can use still spell as a normal wizard but with the advantage to use it when you like and in the spell you like.

6-Nop, i was saying that ASF are off topic I do not know why you named it in bolth case dont exist.

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

4. gigant size and body out of body are the best for a battle caster.

5- because the wu jen have Spell secret that is the same for one spell then she can still cast a spell while a grapple, remember many of the spell have somatic components and many opponents have a lot of BA and STR like a dragon and with rapid spell you can use still spell as a normal wizard but with the advantage to use it when you like and in the spell you like.




4.  They may be (in your opinion), but they require 13 levels in Wu Jen (and a 17 in the correct ability)...and the Wu Jen isn't optimised for combat casting (they're just as squashy as a Wizard).  Compare this to Bull's Strength (+4 Str for 1 min/level, Cleric/Druid/Paladin/Sorcerer/Wizard 2), Cat's Grace (+4 Dex for 1 min/level, Bard/Druid/Ranger/Sorcerer/Wizard 2), Divine Favor (+1 to attack and damage/3 levels, Cleric/Paladin 1), Divine Power (gain a BAB equal to your class level and +6 to Str, Cleric 4), Animalistic Power (+2 to Str, Dex, and Con, Cleric/Druid/Duskblade/Ranger/Sorcerer/Wizard 2), Blade of Blood (+1d6 damage to weapon attack, or +3d6 if you take 5 HP damage, Assassin/Blackguard/Cleric/Duskblade/Sorcerer/Wizard 1)...these all require fewer class levels and have just as big an impact on combat as later Wu Jen spells (and come from classes that can take the rigors of combat much easier).

5.  Why would you still be casting an attack spell if you're grappled?  When a caster is grappled, they'd probably be better served by casting a spell to get away from the grapple (the "escape" spell noted above) than something that'd only enrage the grappling opponent. 

4. gigant size and body out of body are the best for a battle caster.

5- because the wu jen have Spell secret that is the same for one spell then she can still cast a spell while a grapple, remember many of the spell have somatic components and many opponents have a lot of BA and STR like a dragon and with rapid spell you can use still spell as a normal wizard but with the advantage to use it when you like and in the spell you like.




4.  They may be (in your opinion), but they require 13 levels in Wu Jen (and a 17 in the correct ability)...and the Wu Jen isn't optimised for combat casting (they're just as squashy as a Wizard).  Compare this to Bull's Strength (+4 Str for 1 min/level, Cleric/Druid/Paladin/Sorcerer/Wizard 2), Cat's Grace (+4 Dex for 1 min/level, Bard/Druid/Ranger/Sorcerer/Wizard 2), Divine Favor (+1 to attack and damage/3 levels, Cleric/Paladin 1), Divine Power (gain a BAB equal to your class level and +6 to Str, Cleric 4), Animalistic Power (+2 to Str, Dex, and Con, Cleric/Druid/Duskblade/Ranger/Sorcerer/Wizard 2), Blade of Blood (+1d6 damage to weapon attack, or +3d6 if you take 5 HP damage, Assassin/Blackguard/Cleric/Duskblade/Sorcerer/Wizard 1)...these all require fewer class levels and have just as big an impact on combat as later Wu Jen spells (and come from classes that can take the rigors of combat much easier).

5.  Why would you still be casting an attack spell if you're grappled?  When a caster is grappled, they'd probably be better served by casting a spell to get away from the grapple (the "escape" spell noted above) than something that'd only enrage the grappling opponent. 

1- ok gigant size give you at first  +16 str -2 dex +4 con +3 nat and -2 AC/Attack and reach/space of 15 tfs (or the appropiate bonus of growing 2 Size category), for a battle caster that want be use the spells to improved her fighting abilities the wu jen have more powerfull spells.

2- because many times you are the only one to can do powerfull damage to the boss and the sorserer can use any spell as still with the rapid metamagic feat to attack,save one ally, controling foes, escape or many things more.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

1- ok gigant size give you at first  +16 str -2 dex +4 con +3 nat and -2 AC/Attack and reach/space of 15 tfs (or the appropiate bonus of growing 2 Size category), for a battle caster that want be use the spells to improved her fighting abilities the wu jen have more powerfull spells.

2- because many times you are the only one to can do powerfull damage to the boss and the sorserer can use any spell as still with the rapid metamagic feat to attack,save one ally, controling foes, escape or many things more.




1.  True, but it still takes 13 levels in a sub-par casting class (Tenser's Transformation is a less powerful version of Giant Size, but comes two levels earlier;  combine TT with Enlarge Person (a 1st level spell) and you're pretty close to what one casting of GS would give you).

2.  That still doesn't answer my question of why you'd be casting a damaging spell while in a grapple.  You'd be better served by escaping the grapple somehow (a spell, a lucky escape roll, etc) than attempting to damage your opponent, especially since you're not all that set for combat (1d4 per level HP plus any from high Con, lower AC, weaker weapons).

1- ok gigant size give you at first  +16 str -2 dex +4 con +3 nat and -2 AC/Attack and reach/space of 15 tfs (or the appropiate bonus of growing 2 Size category), for a battle caster that want be use the spells to improved her fighting abilities the wu jen have more powerfull spells.

2- because many times you are the only one to can do powerfull damage to the boss and the sorserer can use any spell as still with the rapid metamagic feat to attack,save one ally, controling foes, escape or many things more.




1.  True, but it still takes 13 levels in a sub-par casting class (Tenser's Transformation is a less powerful version of Giant Size, but comes two levels earlier;  combine TT with Enlarge Person (a 1st level spell) and you're pretty close to what one casting of GS would give you).

2.  That still doesn't answer my question of why you'd be casting a damaging spell while in a grapple.  You'd be better served by escaping the grapple somehow (a spell, a lucky escape roll, etc) than attempting to damage your opponent, especially since you're not all that set for combat (1d4 per level HP plus any from high Con, lower AC, weaker weapons).

1- you can cast spells while in gigant zise and tenser transformation give you enhansed bonus that dont stack with magic items this comparation is ridiculous.

2-to kill the target???? and a battle sorserer not are for combat??
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

  1- you can cast spells while in gigant zise and tenser transformation give you enhansed bonus that dont stack with magic items this comparation is ridiculous.

2-to kill the target???? and a battle sorserer not are for combat??




1.  True on the spellcasting part, but Tenser's Transformation grants the bonus to the physical stats (the ones that most spellcasters tank, barring Con).  It also adds full BAB and full simple and martial weapon proficiencies, as well as bonuses to your natural armor and a competence bonus to your lowest save.  Even if you built a Wu Jen for combat, you're still easily outclassed by most every other combat-oriented spellcaster out there.

2.  Why would a target that low in HP attempt to grapple a spellcaster (barring some devils trying to drag an opponent back to Hades with them)?  Why wouldn't they turn and flee (or use spells to flee)??  I was working under the assumption that we were speaking on making a Wu Jen combat-oriented, not a variant class that's already weighted towards combat...
Even as a Battle Sorcerer, you're not exactly set up for combat.  You do get a free weapon proficiency and light armor proficiency (as well as a larger hit die and better BAB), but you're still relegated to the sorcerer spell list (with slightly fewer spells).  A Cleric set up for battle is probably going to mop the floor with your Battle Sorcerer...more weapon options, arguably better buffing spells.
Even as a Battle Sorcerer, you're not exactly set up for combat.  You do get a free weapon proficiency and light armor proficiency (as well as a larger hit die and better BAB), but you're still relegated to the sorcerer spell list (with slightly fewer spells).  A Cleric set up for battle is probably going to mop the floor with your Battle Sorcerer...more weapon options, arguably better buffing spells.

1- again, the bonus dont stack with items, only the bonus in saves but only for that i going to lost my spellcaster abilities, no thanks, and we speak about a multiclass character for combat, not for a simple wu jen and remember the lv 9 wu jen spell  transcendent immortality (lv 21 multiclass character maybe)

2-because a caster can make 100 damage in a single spell, because the mage is the only one to make damage, because the moster is too large to grapple it and still fighting, because maybe you have friends or other important things that you cant leave.

3- ¬¬ are you kidding, spontanius casting, no ASF, BA as cleric, HP as cleric for a FULL ARCANE spell caster!!!! and as you will say "that can use Tenser's Transformation" why you care about the amount of spell know.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
A Battle Sorcerer does get d8 for hit points so it does quite a bit better then the d4 Alsebra mentions.  That's the only problem with those comments however.  If you want to be a "spellcaster" you never want to get messed up in a grapple.  If you do get messed up in a grapple you want to get out of it.  So what if you could cast spells using some combination of feats because even if you CAN that doesn't mean you should or that your oppenent can't do things to stop you from casting spells.  If a spellcaster gets grappled by anything hostile then its first priority needs to be escape.

Oh, by the way a Battle Sorcerer is a LOT better prepared to mix things up IF NEEDED then the so called War Mage would be.

When making any gish character the exact choices you make really need to depend on what you want out of your character.  Do you want a spellcaster who is a bit tougher and potentially could "mix it up" if needed or do you want a warrior who has a bit of ability with magic that he can use to support himself when needed.  It certainly possible to take a "full caster" and have him hulk out using magic, especially for Clerics, but that is just demonstrating the power of a full caster and probably isn't a good reflection on what most of us will call a gish build.
 
A Battle Sorcerer does get d8 for hit points so it does quite a bit better then the d4 Alsebra mentions.  That's the only problem with those comments however.  If you want to be a "spellcaster" you never want to get messed up in a grapple.  If you do get messed up in a grapple you want to get out of it.  So what if you could cast spells using some combination of feats because even if you CAN that doesn't mean you should or that your oppenent can't do things to stop you from casting spells.  If a spellcaster gets grappled by anything hostile then its first priority needs to be escape.

Oh, by the way a Battle Sorcerer is a LOT better prepared to mix things up IF NEEDED then the so called War Mage would be.

When making any gish character the exact choices you make really need to depend on what you want out of your character.  Do you want a spellcaster who is a bit tougher and potentially could "mix it up" if needed or do you want a warrior who has a bit of ability with magic that he can use to support himself when needed.  It certainly possible to take a "full caster" and have him hulk out using magic, especially for Clerics, but that is just demonstrating the power of a full caster and probably isn't a good reflection on what most of us will call a gish build.
 

and telekinesis and Evard's black tentacles???? that are "range Grapple"

Yours never use mages or yours DM'S don't know the mages weakness to make the melee members of the party be the heroes too???

if you use the standar 3.0 epic rules all non Full caster dont do nothing, maybe the monk but all epic spell can be reduced to DC 0 Spellcraft (with a lot of damage to you) and give bonus of +"a lot" to a stats for days.

the 3.5 version with to low epic feats (in completes, draconomicon and other books) and no epic spells are the more balanced
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
and telekinesis and Evard's black tentacles???? that are "range Grapple"

Yours never use mages or yours DM'S don't know the mages weakness to make the melee members of the party be the heroes too???


Good news.  If your caster is getting grappled by telekinesis then their caster isn't doing much as he needs to maintain concentration to keep the grapple up.

As for Evar's Black Tnetacles your spellcaster probably should try to get out of there ASAP because they could eventually kill him.

I mentioned this before but just because you could cast a spell with no somatic component while grappled you still have other things to deal with.  You'll need to make a Concentration check just to get a spell of anyway.  Oh, guess what, you still provoke an AoO when you cast while grappled or may be taking ongoing damage which can mean even more Concentration checks.  Grappling is bad news for spellcasters, that we're in agreement on, but when grappled a caster's primary goal should almost aways be escape because even if he could cast while grappled there is no guarentee of success when attempting to do so.
 
and telekinesis and Evard's black tentacles???? that are "range Grapple"

Yours never use mages or yours DM'S don't know the mages weakness to make the melee members of the party be the heroes too???


Good news.  If your caster is getting grappled by telekinesis then their caster isn't doing much as he needs to maintain concentration to keep the grapple up.

As for Evar's Black Tnetacles your spellcaster probably should try to get out of there ASAP because they could eventually kill him.

I mentioned this before but just because you could cast a spell with no somatic component while grappled you still have other things to deal with.  You'll need to make a Concentration check just to get a spell of anyway.  Oh, guess what, you still provoke an AoO when you cast while grappled or may be taking ongoing damage which can mean even more Concentration checks.  Grappling is bad news for spellcasters, that we're in agreement on, but when grappled a caster's primary goal should almost aways be escape because even if he could cast while grappled there is no guarentee of success when attempting to do so.
 

what??? concentrating??? this for noobs. you dont know to much of spells or feats that let other consentrate for you in the spell to let you use the turn as normal????

and all decent spell caster has maximized her concentration skill and remember one form of escape is killing the one to are grappling you.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

what??? concentrating??? this for noobs. you dont know to much of spells or feats that let other consentrate for you in the spell to let you use the turn as normal????

and all decent spell caster has maximized her concentration skill and remember one form of escape is killing the one to are grappling you.



How is concentrating 'for noobs'?  Each spellcaster has to make a Concentration check when trying to cast a spell under duress (PHB 170)...which means that to cast a spell during a grapple, you need to succeed at a Concentration check to begin the spell (DC 20 + spell level) and a second one (DC 10 + spell level + damage taken from the AoO you provoked for casting a spell when threatened) to get the spell off.  Succeeding at two Concentration checks while also keeping yourself alive (since you've got low HP) isn't all that easy...

True, but you can still botch the rolls.  Also true, but the chances of you killing the enemy grappling you before they kill you in return are fairly low at higher levels (since enemy HP increases much more at those levels as compared to damage that could be dealt).   

what??? concentrating??? this for noobs. you dont know to much of spells or feats that let other consentrate for you in the spell to let you use the turn as normal????

and all decent spell caster has maximized her concentration skill and remember one form of escape is killing the one to are grappling you.



How is concentrating 'for noobs'?  Each spellcaster has to make a Concentration check when trying to cast a spell under duress (PHB 170)...which means that to cast a spell during a grapple, you need to succeed at a Concentration check to begin the spell (DC 20 + spell level) and a second one (DC 10 + spell level + damage taken from the AoO you provoked for casting a spell when threatened) to get the spell off.  Succeeding at two Concentration checks while also keeping yourself alive (since you've got low HP) isn't all that easy...

True, but you can still botch the rolls.  Also true, but the chances of you killing the enemy grappling you before they kill you in return are fairly low at higher levels (since enemy HP increases much more at those levels as compared to damage that could be dealt).   


This is exactly why we generally ignore Oma. He rarely has any idea what he's talking about, and even when he does it's garbled in poor communication skills.

That said, your second paragraph is weak: At high levels you do not kill targets with damage, but rather remove them from combat directly.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
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[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.


what??? concentrating??? this for noobs. you dont know to much of spells or feats that let other consentrate for you in the spell to let you use the turn as normal????

and all decent spell caster has maximized her concentration skill and remember one form of escape is killing the one to are grappling you.



How is concentrating 'for noobs'?  Each spellcaster has to make a Concentration check when trying to cast a spell under duress (PHB 170)...which means that to cast a spell during a grapple, you need to succeed at a Concentration check to begin the spell (DC 20 + spell level) and a second one (DC 10 + spell level + damage taken from the AoO you provoked for casting a spell when threatened) to get the spell off.  Succeeding at two Concentration checks while also keeping yourself alive (since you've got low HP) isn't all that easy...

True, but you can still botch the rolls.  Also true, but the chances of you killing the enemy grappling you before they kill you in return are fairly low at higher levels (since enemy HP increases much more at those levels as compared to damage that could be dealt).   



concentrating in a spell is diferent to a concentration check that you never mention, now at starting lv 13 many caster automatically successful any concesntration check for cast and while grappling you don't take damage in you own turn unless the foe use a ready action, that make more vulnerable the foe to the party member and you become more usefull while grapple because this proves the fear of the monster to your spellcasting abilities.

remove??? yes with a twin maximize empowered hellfire storm at lv 13.

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.


concentrating in a spell is diferent to a concentration check that you never mention, now at starting lv 13 many caster automatically successful any concesntration check for cast and while grappling you don't take damage in you own turn unless the foe use a ready action, that make more vulnerable the foe to the party member and you become more usefull while grapple because this proves the fear of the monster to your spellcasting abilities.

remove??? yes with a twin maximize empowered hellfire storm at lv 13.


You know if a spell will "remove" your opponent you probably should have used it BEFORE they got a chance to grapple you.  In any case a twin (+4) maximize (+3) empowered (+2) spell (I don't know where hellfire storm is or what level it is) isn't something that most characters can throw around as you're looking at something well into epic levels if you think it's going to take out a single target.  Casting such a spell while grappled is going to require at least a DC 30 concentration check which is far from automatic for most characters I've seen or written.  The concentration check you probably get from an AoO is also going to be severe.




concentrating in a spell is diferent to a concentration check that you never mention, now at starting lv 13 many caster automatically successful any concesntration check for cast and while grappling you don't take damage in you own turn unless the foe use a ready action, that make more vulnerable the foe to the party member and you become more usefull while grapple because this proves the fear of the monster to your spellcasting abilities.

remove??? yes with a twin maximize empowered hellfire storm at lv 13.


You know if a spell will "remove" your opponent you probably should have used it BEFORE they got a chance to grapple you.  In any case a twin (+4) maximize (+3) empowered (+2) spell (I don't know where hellfire storm is or what level it is) isn't something that most characters can throw around as you're looking at something well into epic levels if you think it's going to take out a single target.  Casting such a spell while grappled is going to require at least a DC 30 concentration check which is far from automatic for most characters I've seen or written.  The concentration check you probably get from an AoO is also going to be severe.



you can do it at lv 13 only ¬¬ and hellfired storm is the mos broken spell from FC 2 and the dc of concentration while a grapple is 22 ¬¬ if you hava still spell, that still can be done at lv 13.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Once again, Oma's not being helpful at all.

Steven, Hellfire Storm is basically fireball, except it uses d8s, has no save or SR, bypasses fire resistance, and is a level 7 domain spell. Still caps at 10d8 though, so you're looking at 45 whole points of damage when monsters have about 170 HP on average. (Pre-metamagic, but you're right about the insane price - Oma, why aren't you just talking about a Heighten +100 Vengeful Gaze of God or something at this point?)

I know that if I had access to 7th level spells, I'd much prefer Forcecage or related effects. You know, ones which might actually win a battle outright rather than just whittle down hit points.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

I've had Oma on ignore for a month or two, but darn that got a giggle-out-loud out of me!

"Heighten +100 Vengeful Gaze of God"   

Hehehehehehe

What book is that in?  My character wants it! 


concentrating in a spell is diferent to a concentration check that you never mention, now at starting lv 13 many caster automatically successful any concesntration check for cast and while grappling you don't take damage in you own turn unless the foe use a ready action, that make more vulnerable the foe to the party member and you become more usefull while grapple because this proves the fear of the monster to your spellcasting abilities.

remove??? yes with a twin maximize empowered hellfire storm at lv 13.

Show
You know if a spell will "remove" your opponent you probably should have used it BEFORE they got a chance to grapple you.  In any case a twin (+4) maximize (+3) empowered (+2) spell (I don't know where hellfire storm is or what level it is) isn't something that most characters can throw around as you're looking at something well into epic levels if you think it's going to take out a single target.  Casting such a spell while grappled is going to require at least a DC 30 concentration check which is far from automatic for most characters I've seen or written.  The concentration check you probably get from an AoO is also going to be severe.


you can do it at lv 13 only ¬¬ and hellfired storm is the mos broken spell from FC 2 and the dc of concentration while a grapple is 22 ¬¬ if you hava still spell, that still can be done at lv 13.


Ok, google Hellfire Storm and come up with a Diabolic 7 spell.  I guess you could use that at 13th-level but would you care to explain how you are adding +9 levels worth of MM boosts to it?  My my calculation to cast a twinned, maximized, empowered Hellfire Storm you're going to need a 16th level spell slot and how your "gish" comes up with that in under 30 levels is beyond me.  I may not be sure of the RAW but I'd say that your Contration checks are going to be modified by what ever spell slot you use for that spell so a 16th-level spell would mean you need to overcome a DR 36 Concentration check inorder to cast it.

Oh, I also like the  "solution" the getting grappled as hitting the guy who's grappling you with a big old AoE spell which is CERTAIN to catch you in the AoE.  Nothing like sucking down your own magic.

Perhaps you are refering to a different spell but with all that MM even a 2nd-level spell is well out of reach for a 13th-level spellcaster.
 
I've had Oma on ignore for a month or two, but darn that got a giggle-out-loud out of me!



Likewise, but he still shows up when people quote him.
"Heighten +100 Vengeful Gaze of God"   

Hehehehehehe

What book is that in?  My character wants it! 


It's illegal, but only because you can't apply metamagic feats to epic spells.
(The most menacing name on a non-epic spell I know of is Crushing Fist of Spite, which is in the BOVD and does exactly what it says on the tin. There's also Apocalypse from the Sky (same book), which was what formed the first draft of the Locate City bomb before people started using Locate City with it.)

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

I've had Oma on ignore for a month or two, but darn that got a giggle-out-loud out of me!



Likewise, but he still shows up when people quote him.


I guess I've very guilty of doing that.  Sorry to anyone who still gets exposure that way.
 

This is exactly why we generally ignore Oma. He rarely has any idea what he's talking about, and even when he does it's garbled in poor communication skills.

That said, your second paragraph is weak: At high levels you do not kill targets with damage, but rather remove them from combat directly.




I know, but sometimes I like the challenge of beating my head on a wall.  My second paragraph was in response to his attempt at saying that damage is a fine way to take out the grappling opponent, even when the hit points of enemies tends to start rising rather quickly after certain levels.




concentrating in a spell is diferent to a concentration check that you never mention, now at starting lv 13 many caster automatically successful any concesntration check for cast and while grappling you don't take damage in you own turn unless the foe use a ready action, that make more vulnerable the foe to the party member and you become more usefull while grapple because this proves the fear of the monster to your spellcasting abilities.

remove??? yes with a twin maximize empowered hellfire storm at lv 13.




At level 13, you can have 16 ranks in Concentration;  if you didn't completely tank your Constitution, you might be lucky enough to have a +3 to it.  That's far from 'automatically successful'...even if you have some Concentration-boosting equipment.

You actually can take damage during your own turn if you provoke an attack of opportunity (AoO).  If you are in an area threatened by an opponent (as you are when in a grapple), you provoke an AoO if you cast a spell, which requires you to make a Concentration check or lose the spell.