out of the expansion decks which is the weakest

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 I feel liek the blue and red Deck is the  weakest one of all   in single player you pretty much screwed from the get go. and   2hg your partnet  better have a fast pace deck  to survive
Well, MS is decent in 2hg regardless of your partner's deck I think.  It just has a ton of utility spells that really help as long as your partner has some early creatures - but your partner doesn't have to have a super-fast deck either (because the other slow decks have great removal that compliment MS very well).

MS might be the weakest expansion deck, it's probably a matter of taste and playstyle though than anything objective.  
Izzet is the weakest, but not by that much. Imo the lead of Rakdos at the top end is far more noticable.
 I feel liek the blue and red Deck is the  weakest one of all   in single player you pretty much screwed from the get go. and   2hg your partnet  better have a fast pace deck  to survive



I hear in 2HG MS is a beast....

GM is pretty solid. The demigods, reanimate, some removal, blightning etc... A pretty solid package and the aggro version with Pain Magnification and 3 Bloodchief ascensions gets VERY VERY fast wins in 2HG with Chandra.

SS has tons of removal so if you start with 2x Pernicious deed, 1x damnation, 2x maelstrom pulse, 4x go for the throat, 2x sac edict and consuming vapors you should be fine. Clear the board, remove lots of creatures, ramp up your swamps with the chump sacrificial blockers, possiby drop a hexproox troll, but basically build up and drop a graveyard fatty. Rancor FTW. Oh yeah, and BLOOD ARTIST works great with your removal....

I find Aura Servants is my funnest deck to play. Its always a race.

Collective might with 2x Beastmaster ascension and 2x overrun and about 18 2 mana drops is orking for me...it has weaknesses vs some decks though....
AS by far you need way too much luck with that deck to stand a chance.

Oh hypocrisy! A World full of n00bs indeed!

I don't know about MS as I have only used it a few games but if it lives that Dominus card is a royal pain in the @$$!
AS by far you need way too much luck with that deck to stand a chance.



I disagree. A good deck build reduces the chance of luck significantly..... its not a stellar deck, but mine is 20-9 of the games I logged and that is 6-1 vs OD and 6-2 vs SS. If people want to play the I got 55 removal spells, nanananana....I'll just punch my hexproofs through and kill you.
This is wierd because to me MS is THE strongest 2hg deck of the expansion decks and very solid 1v1. You can't compliment a 2hg deck regardless of the one you choose like you can with someone good playing MS. As with everything (Especially a blue/red deck) it depends on the build and skill I guess.
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This is wierd because to me MS is THE strongest 2hg deck of the expansion decks and very solid 1v1. You can't compliment a 2hg deck regardless of the one you choose like you can with someone good playing MS.


I agree with that.  MS can be trickier to play 1v1, but I've been finding it to be very competitive (and more importantly, fun).  I think all the expansion decks are solid and good additions to the Duels13 lineup.  If I had to pick one to label the weakest, I'd go with CM.  That may just be because I find it incredibly boring to play though.
I'd put Rakdos on top over Golgari(real close), then Selesnya CM, Azorius AS and Izzet MS...
Using GM can get me to the driver seat as early as turn 3, Golgari feels a little clunky early on, it is prone to mana screw.. Most of Its useful 3 drops Trolls and Elders and 4 drops Morty, Master of the Wild hunt, Grave Pack are cost restrictive. But once it has the mana to get going its really hard to stop..
CM lacks removal but still very consistent and solid aggro deck... Not much to say about that 
AS is very inconsistent, I had mine setup like just over 55% creature 45% others.. and still i get screwed from time to time... I frequently draw too many creatures and no enchantments or vice versa... It really needs a good starting hand to get going.. AS is also my least favorite deck in 2013.. not being able to interact with its cards is kind of stupid and boring..
MS is without a doubt awesome in 2hg but in 1v1 I think is hard to rate .. It is deemed as weak by many but it can be very good. MS is a very underrated deck. Although Izzet has a lot of to very bad matchups but the great thing about the deck is that it is capable of pulling off a win against them. It is one of those decks that can quikly turn the game to your favor. I like playing with Izzet, because it requires a lot of calculations and tricks to play effectively It is one of the most rewarding deck to play IMO
Is it consensus that Rakdos is stronger than Golgari?

I tended to think Golgari is better, it just has better quality cards overall, and multiple sweepers which makes a huge difference.  I can't think of a single weak matchup for the Golgari because it has answers for EVERYTHING, and strong creatures to boot.  Even Goblins are not that scary because you have 3 sweepers, Maelstrom pulse, and then your emissaries can trade with goblins and mana ramp at the same time




Is it consensus that Rakdos is stronger than Golgari?

I tended to think Golgari is better, it just has better quality cards overall, and multiple sweepers which makes a huge difference.  I can't think of a single weak matchup for the Golgari because it has answers for EVERYTHING, and strong creatures to boot.  Even Goblins are not that scary because you have 3 sweepers, Maelstrom pulse, and then your emissaries can trade with goblins and mana ramp at the same time




I think Golgari has better overall balance. The fact that it has abundant answers for hexproof creatures, artifacts, enchantments, a TON of removal, some good lifegain, nasty enchantments and card draw just make it very well rounded in pretty much any matchup. Its worst matchup is probably Dream Puppets where its usually a race....do I drop a fatty you helped make and kill you before my slow-removal heavy deck gets milled or do I run out of cards...... Also, if you run this as slow and removal heavy, Talrand can be an issue....I suppose a turn 3 hexproof troll is the worst thing Talrand can see from this deck....and I am not running them....
Is it consensus that Rakdos is stronger than Golgari?

I tended to think Golgari is better, it just has better quality cards overall, and multiple sweepers which makes a huge difference.  I can't think of a single weak matchup for the Golgari because it has answers for EVERYTHING, and strong creatures to boot.  Even Goblins are not that scary because you have 3 sweepers, Maelstrom pulse, and then your emissaries can trade with goblins and mana ramp at the same time







Non-creature based decks like Burn BF, Burn MS and (maybe) Turbo Mill DP can be a problem because every removal spell in SS becomes a (nearly) dead card. Also, OD has better bombs, although SS can still get a win here because of better card draw. Not saying GM is better, just pointing out some bad matchups for SS.

WotC doesn't care about flavor. Their forum is the only place where an ORC can kill a troll...

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Post #1000 on Feb 02, 2013

Post #2000 on Sep 04, 2013

Is it consensus that Rakdos is stronger than Golgari?

I tended to think Golgari is better, it just has better quality cards overall, and multiple sweepers which makes a huge difference.  I can't think of a single weak matchup for the Golgari because it has answers for EVERYTHING, and strong creatures to boot.  Even Goblins are not that scary because you have 3 sweepers, Maelstrom pulse, and then your emissaries can trade with goblins and mana ramp at the same time







Non-creature based decks like Burn BF, Burn MS and (maybe) Turbo Mill DP can be a problem because every removal spell in SS becomes a (nearly) dead card. Also, OD has better bombs, although SS can still get a win here because of better card draw. Not saying GM is better, just pointing out some bad matchups for SS.



I forgot BF, that is also a bad matchup if you run into the creature light version...and you are removal heavy. You can still win but you are on a serious clock.

I run Troll Ascetic so maybe this is why I am not so afraid of BF.  I wouldn't say it's a good matchup but I wouldn't consider it bad either.  I know the troll is not always the best card to run but I don't think you can call it an outright bad card to run either.  It's useful against certain matchups and I use both Rancors, which goes great on the Ascetics.

In the matchup with OD, I would *think* that SS has the advantage because of Greater Good and Spiritmonger.  Spiritmonger can regenerate, and Greater Good can turn any murdered fatty into some card draw... as for OD's fatties they can all be removed too... but OD doesn't have card draw or regeneration

 
I run Troll Ascetic so maybe this is why I am not so afraid of BF.  I wouldn't say it's a good matchup but I wouldn't consider it bad either.  I know the troll is not always the best card to run but I don't think you can call it an outright bad card to run either.  It's useful against certain matchups and I use both Rancors, which goes great on the Ascetics.

In the matchup with OD, I would *think* that SS has the advantage because of Greater Good and Spiritmonger.  Spiritmonger can regenerate, and Greater Good can turn any murdered fatty into some card draw... as for OD's fatties they can all be removed too... but OD doesn't have card draw or regeneration

 



This is funny because I don't know how many times an SS player will drop a couple a Trolls and I just Flamebreak. Bonus laughs if they regen them without realizing it won't do them any good
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A good SS player will only play one troll at a time against BF
I run Troll Ascetic so maybe this is why I am not so afraid of BF.  I wouldn't say it's a good matchup but I wouldn't consider it bad either.  I know the troll is not always the best card to run but I don't think you can call it an outright bad card to run either.  It's useful against certain matchups and I use both Rancors, which goes great on the Ascetics.

In the matchup with OD, I would *think* that SS has the advantage because of Greater Good and Spiritmonger.  Spiritmonger can regenerate, and Greater Good can turn any murdered fatty into some card draw... as for OD's fatties they can all be removed too... but OD doesn't have card draw or regeneration

 



You talk like you feel guilty about running one of the most efficient 3 drops in the game. The card is excellent, man!

... but, BF has Flamebreak.

About OD, well, it has card draw. But SS card draw is better. Spiritmonger can be a problem, but Mutilate exists. And OD's fatties can be removed, but they can cause you many problems even when they die. Just look at Rune-Scarred Demon, Grave Titan and Griselbrand. And, in the end of the day, Corrupt

WotC doesn't care about flavor. Their forum is the only place where an ORC can kill a troll...

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Post #1000 on Feb 02, 2013

Post #2000 on Sep 04, 2013

in my experience i think auras is a bit weak compared to the others, it just doesn't have enough good creatures to keep away the rush early on and theirs few creatures to pick from to enchant that have good bonuses least in my mind
I don't think there is one. It really depends what deck you are up against. Every deck has it's weak points and it's strong points. My favorite out of the new is AS, my least favorite is GM. 
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Must disagree about AS being weak. If your opponent cannot remove enchantments or make you sacrifice a simple Invisible Stalker with Indestructible and Pariah attached is win game.

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I do think OD is better than SS, but it is narrow.

OD has the advantage that its bombs have amazing ETB abilites or activated abilites that can be uses immediately (mana or life permitting) It also has amazing 2HG potential with Underworld Dreams and Liliana's Specter hitting both opponents at once.

SS has the advantage that it can destroy enchantments and artifacts, which OD can majorly struggle with. It also has kill spells at 1 mana less. With no decent artifact creatures in the game as of yet, Go for the Throat is functionally a 1 mana cheaper Murder.

What tips it for me is SS has no graveyard recursion. Those two simple Rise from the Graves make OD a better deck IMO. More flexible and more able to respond to an opponent intelligently by taking their creatures if need be. If SS had some ressurection, it'd be a very close call.



Its an interesting discussion and I was going to make a thread a week or so back on this....

SS has an answer for the panoptic mirror, sulfuric vortex, underworld dreams, the well of lost dreams, erratic portal, any artifact/enchantment in the game. It also can deal with the troll in the mirror match, it can get rid of hexproof creatures much like dungrove elder easier, sword of truth, clear out an entire mill machine in one swoop with pernicious deed.... the maelstrom pulses also have amazing utility...

OD has two innocent bloods but SS has two diabolical edicts, consuming vapor,  2 total board sweepers. and 1x creature sweeper (for 4 mana)...infest is great but can't always clear a board or kill a hexproof. Mutilate almost always clears a board. SS has three of them and 2 clear everything... In addition, if you get a gravepact and greater good out, and with all your stall, you can, the board really gets locked down. Nothing lives that you don't want out there.

Re: rise from the grave --- my 2x mortivore and 2xspiritmongers regenerate. They can't be murdered. Meanwhile, mind rot is making you discard two cards turn 3.....maybe even a rat made you discard one earlier..... You can't even mutilate them I don't think since the card doesn't say anything about "creatures can't be regenerated" --- the mitotic slime is leaving behind 2x 2/2 creatures etc... But I agree, RFtG is a beast of a card in OD....not to mention 2x rancor in SS.

and with dark heart of the wood and the 6 land fetching creatures...you have some ample lifegain---you think your deck of land quick and have card-draw to boot......

Its a really interesting matchup, I'd actually like to play a set of games and see how it goes...

Must disagree about AS being weak. If your opponent cannot remove enchantments or make you sacrifice a simple Invisible Stalker with Indestructible and Pariah attached is win game.



Its true.
Turn two spiritdane/stalker
Turn three empyrial armor
Turn four daybreak coronet

Buh bye opponent next turn

Not a ton of answers for a turn 2 hexproof that will will pumping hard the two following turns....
I do think OD is better than SS, but it is narrow.

OD has the advantage that its bombs have amazing ETB abilites or activated abilites that can be uses immediately (mana or life permitting) It also has amazing 2HG potential with Underworld Dreams and Liliana's Specter hitting both opponents at once.

SS has the advantage that it can destroy enchantments and artifacts, which OD can majorly struggle with. It also has kill spells at 1 mana less. With no decent artifact creatures in the game as of yet, Go for the Throat is functionally a 1 mana cheaper Murder.

What tips it for me is SS has no graveyard recursion. Those two simple Rise from the Graves make OD a better deck IMO. More flexible and more able to respond to an opponent intelligently by taking their creatures if need be. If SS had some ressurection, it'd be a very close call.



Its an interesting discussion and I was going to make a thread a week or so back on this....

SS has an answer for the panoptic mirror, sulfuric vortex, underworld dreams, the well of lost dreams, erratic portal, any artifact/enchantment in the game. It also can deal with the troll in the mirror match, it can get rid of hexproof creatures much like dungrove elder easier, sword of truth, clear out an entire mill machine in one swoop with pernicious deed.... the maelstrom pulses also have amazing utility...

OD has two innocent bloods but OD has two diabolical edits of these and 3 total board sweepers....infest is great but can't always clear a board or kill a hexproof. Mutilate almost always clears a board. SS has three of them and it clears everything... In addition, if you get a gravepact and greater good out, and with all your stall, you can, the board really gets locked down. Nothing lives that you don't want out there.

Re: rise from the grave --- my 2x mortivore and 2xspiritmongers regenerate. They can't be murdered. You can't even mutilate them I don't think since the card doesn't say anything about "creatures can't be regenerated" --- the mitotic slime is leaving behind 2x 2/2 creatures etc... But I agree, RFtG is a beast of a card in OD....not to mention 2x rancor in SS.

and with dark heart of the wood and the 6 land fetching creatures...you have some ample lifegain---you think your deck of land quick andh ave card-draw to boot......

Its a really interesting matchup, I'd actually like to play a set of games and see how it goes...




Mutilate kills regeneration, and indestructable, by virtue of using -1/1 per swamp rather than actual damage.  The only way I know of surviving it is to either have more toughness than OD has swamps, or have Fool's Demise. I guess the PI undying gets a pass too. 

It would be a good matchup to be honest. SS has fewer weaknesses, but this limits it's strength as well. OD has the power to slam right through it and kill with no creatures on the board, or at least no creatures surviving, but a good enchantment ruins it's day completely. 

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I do think OD is better than SS, but it is narrow.

OD has the advantage that its bombs have amazing ETB abilites or activated abilites that can be uses immediately (mana or life permitting) It also has amazing 2HG potential with Underworld Dreams and Liliana's Specter hitting both opponents at once.

SS has the advantage that it can destroy enchantments and artifacts, which OD can majorly struggle with. It also has kill spells at 1 mana less. With no decent artifact creatures in the game as of yet, Go for the Throat is functionally a 1 mana cheaper Murder.

What tips it for me is SS has no graveyard recursion. Those two simple Rise from the Graves make OD a better deck IMO. More flexible and more able to respond to an opponent intelligently by taking their creatures if need be. If SS had some ressurection, it'd be a very close call.



Its an interesting discussion and I was going to make a thread a week or so back on this....

SS has an answer for the panoptic mirror, sulfuric vortex, underworld dreams, the well of lost dreams, erratic portal, any artifact/enchantment in the game. It also can deal with the troll in the mirror match, it can get rid of hexproof creatures much like dungrove elder easier, sword of truth, clear out an entire mill machine in one swoop with pernicious deed.... the maelstrom pulses also have amazing utility...

OD has two innocent bloods but OD has two diabolical edits of these and 3 total board sweepers....infest is great but can't always clear a board or kill a hexproof. Mutilate almost always clears a board. SS has three of them and it clears everything... In addition, if you get a gravepact and greater good out, and with all your stall, you can, the board really gets locked down. Nothing lives that you don't want out there.

Re: rise from the grave --- my 2x mortivore and 2xspiritmongers regenerate. They can't be murdered. You can't even mutilate them I don't think since the card doesn't say anything about "creatures can't be regenerated" --- the mitotic slime is leaving behind 2x 2/2 creatures etc... But I agree, RFtG is a beast of a card in OD....not to mention 2x rancor in SS.

and with dark heart of the wood and the 6 land fetching creatures...you have some ample lifegain---you think your deck of land quick andh ave card-draw to boot......

Its a really interesting matchup, I'd actually like to play a set of games and see how it goes...




Mutilate kills regeneration, and indestructable, by virtue of using -1/1 per swamp rather than actual damage.  The only way I know of surviving it is to either have more toughness than OD has swamps, or have Fool's Demise. I guess the PI undying gets a pass too. 

It would be a good matchup to be honest. SS has fewer weaknesses, but this limits it's strength as well. OD has the power to slam right through it and kill with no creatures on the board, or at least no creatures surviving, but a good enchantment ruins it's day completely. 




So putting -1 counters on a creature bypasses regeneration abilities? That evens things up a bit.

Yep, just googled it, when a creature has 0 toughness, it cannot be regenerated....

Still though, Spiritmonger and mortivore are really only suspecptible to 1x mutilate... in OD and the Innocent bloods....   interesting... but mortivore probably won't get too big to fast in that match as I see no one charging out the gate with creatures....

SS's biggest fear is the 10 mana corrupt I think..and if it doesn't end the game its a 20 life swing none the less.....

In 1v1, I'd put Rakdos as the strongest.  Izzet and Azorius both have consistency problems putting them at the weakest of the dlc decks.  That doesn't mean they can't do well, but they tend to crash & burn more often.
In 1v1, I'd put Rakdos as the strongest.  Izzet and Azorius both have consistency problems putting them at the weakest of the dlc decks.  That doesn't mean they can't do well, but they tend to crash & burn more often.



What are we dsicussing, which deck wins 1v1 or which deck is better versus a variety of situations?
May just be my perception, but I wouldn't necessarily say a deck has consistency problems; I'd say certain BUILDS have consistency problems as there are a lot of different possible combinations. I've also been surprised how changing out 1 or two cards even make a big difference in how consistently you draw, or variety of spells. I've recently changed some inconsistent builds only slightly, yet they draw a lot better. Wierdest thing ever.
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