How does Miracle work in opening hand?

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Say I draw a 7 card hand with thunderous wrath in it.

Can I cast it for just one red mana or does it have to be "drawn" as in on a real turn to be used as the Miracle option.
No you can't draw it on your initial draw.  Your initial draw is part of the pregame procedure, so the cards aren't actually drawn during your first turn.

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Even if this were theoretically legal, there are very few ways to get the mana you'd need that early in the game (though it is possible). You do realize that you have to cast the Miracle as soon as the triggered ability from revealing it resolves, right? You don't have the rest of the turn to do so, or anything like that.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Also, miracle only works if it's the first card you draw in a turn. Drawing your opening 7 cards doesn't happen during a turn.

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Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

Also, m,iracle only works if it's the first card you draw in a turn. Drawing your opening 7 cards doesn't happen during a turn.


That's not an "also", it's the exact same point Segoth made and that my "even if" referred back to.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
Also, m,iracle only works if it's the first card you draw in a turn. Drawing your opening 7 cards doesn't happen during a turn.


That's not an "also", it's the exact same point Segoth made and that my "even if" referred back to.

Well, I think the point was that, in the hypothetical world where that did somehow work, you'd have to draw the Miracle card as the very first of your starting seven for the Miracle ability to even trigger, and at that point, you haven't drawn any of the requisite cards to make your freshly drawn Miracle remotely castable.

So even if the rules allowed you to cast a miracle off of your opening hand, it would be physically impossible based on the cards that are in the game to have the mana available to even cast it.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Also, m,iracle only works if it's the first card you draw in a turn. Drawing your opening 7 cards doesn't happen during a turn.


That's not an "also", it's the exact same point Segoth made and that my "even if" referred back to.

Well, I think the point was that, in the hypothetical world where that did somehow work, you'd have to draw the Miracle card as the very first of your starting seven for the Miracle ability to even trigger, and at that point, you haven't drawn any of the requisite cards to make your freshly drawn Miracle remotely castable.

So even if the rules allowed you to cast a miracle off of your opening hand, it would be physically impossible based on the cards that are in the game to have the mana available to even cast it.




Miracle is a triggered ability. So it needs to use the stack. You just reveal and keep it revealed as the first card in the initial hand; and the triggers waits to go to the stack at the beginning of the first upkeep - at that point, you may have the Spirits Guides or whatever in hand to cast it!


Hypothetically, of course, as it doesn't trigger for drawing outside of a turn.

[<o>]
Also, m,iracle only works if it's the first card you draw in a turn. Drawing your opening 7 cards doesn't happen during a turn.


That's not an "also", it's the exact same point Segoth made and that my "even if" referred back to.

Well, I think the point was that, in the hypothetical world where that did somehow work, you'd have to draw the Miracle card as the very first of your starting seven for the Miracle ability to even trigger, and at that point, you haven't drawn any of the requisite cards to make your freshly drawn Miracle remotely castable.

So even if the rules allowed you to cast a miracle off of your opening hand, it would be physically impossible based on the cards that are in the game to have the mana available to even cast it.




Miracle is a triggered ability. So it needs to use the stack. You just reveal and keep it revealed as the first card in the initial hand; and the triggers waits to go to the stack at the beginning of the first upkeep - at that point, you may have the Spirits Guides or whatever in hand to cast it!


Hypothetically, of course, as it doesn't trigger for drawing outside of a turn.


Well, in the hypothetical, the stack would have to extend to all the phases and pre-phases of the game.  In for a penny, in for a pound, yes?

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Well, in the hypothetical, the stack would have to extend to all the phases and pre-phases of the game.  In for a penny, in for a pound, yes?

Extend the Stack... hum... interesting concept, if somewhat difficult to grasp.
It feels weird, like if you proposed to draw life points, attack a spell, or add cards to your Mana Pool...

The stack must exist at that point because the library and hand already exist.

The point is that the Miracle replacement effect doesn't apply because you're not in a turn when you draw your starting hand.


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If the stack didn't exist prior to starting the first turn how would one explain the Flash/Hulk, Gemstone Caverns, Disciple of the Vault combo.
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Well, in the hypothetical, the stack would have to extend to all the phases and pre-phases of the game.  In for a penny, in for a pound, yes?

Extend the Stack... hum... interesting concept, if somewhat difficult to grasp.
It feels weird, like if you proposed to draw life points, attack a spell, or add cards to your Mana Pool...



As 2Goth pointed out, the Stack is a zone so it exists already.


I'm just assuming no other rule changed except the Miracle's triggering condition. So it's still true that a triggered abilities can only go to the stack at a point when a player would receive priority. This means the upkeep of the first turn.


[<o>]

If the stack didn't exist prior to starting the first turn how would one explain the Flash/Hulk, Gemstone Caverns, Disciple of the Vault combo.


The so-called 'turn 0' comboes work during the first turn's upkeep, assuming your opponent is the first player. Before your first turn, but during another player's first turn.

[<o>]