Christian cleric/paladin?

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(Disclaimer: This is my first thread/post, so I apologise in advance for any mistakes)

 Hello everyone!
I am relativley new to D&D (I started playing a few months ago), and I have a problem. I (and my group) all play our P.C's as Christian. Now, the "Channel Divinity" powers require you to worship a certain god, so we don't use them. However, this weakens our party's palidin and cleric. So what would you suggest to balance it?

Thanks! 

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/6.jpg)

I would suggest that you just ignore the requirement that you worship a certain god, or as a group decide which channel divinities and domains seem to fit the christian god the best and give the god those domains and those channel divinities available to the cleric/paladin.  Now you would have to make sure that you are playing in a world that really only has one god.  If you are using any other gods in the world as say satan or something I would just exclude that or those gods domains and channel divinities from the ones you can choose.  Now if your world you are playing in includes all the gods presented in D&D then I have to ask why you are playing characters that follow a false god in your world instead of a real one.  Not that you can't, but then it would make sense that your characters lose both domains and channel divinity since there really is no divinity they are following.  It could be cool to then have them gaining power from one of the actual gods that is presenting itself to them while hiding true identity and then give the domains and channel divinity of that god available to them.

Ok end of wall of text and ramblings. 
Another alternative to consider, especially if you're modelling the Medieval church, is that the Channel Divinity options could be tied to specific religious orders based on their focus rather than to the religion as a whole (ex. The Knights Templar get a strength or war based channel divinity while the Knights Hospitaler get a healing based one and the Franciscans get a knowledge based one).
Just drop the 'must worship (X)' requirement and pick the one you want.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Yeah, if most of the group has issues with this and the DM agrees, just drop all the existing D&D deities and add one (or more) of your choice. Then the group can take a look at the Channel Divinity powers and see which ones make sense. Players of the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and some other versions of Christianity might have an easier time of it because they can replace the various gods - the Good ones at least - with Christian saints.

If you were the only one with concerns, I'd say to work it out with the DM - while acknowledging that the game world is quite likely to remain polytheistic or atheistic. (This does not mean that your character can't claim that his deity is the One True God. However, if he does, he's quite likely to be objectively incorrect and there may be some stress if the group ever meets a deity other than his.)

Personally I'm actively Pagan, but I've played in games where instead of "gods" we had Christian saints historical, quasi-historical, and fictional* - because the DM wanted it that way. No problem. I could even put a standard deity on my character sheet to satisfy the Character Builder's interlocks, and follow one or more of the saints in-game.

* I could easily see an artificer following Saint Vidicon of Cathode. Particularly in Eberron.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose

  This is a complete non-issue.
 Change the names and play the game... As mentioned, there's no reason not to just change the names of the feats to something more appropriate to your characters - the suggestion of different religious orders or saints would be perfect - and use the mechanics as written.

 There's no reason to not use a spell called Melf Minute Meteors just because Melf never existed in your campaign world.

Show

I am the Magic Man.

(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.)

 

I am the Lawnmower Man.

(I AM GOD HERE!)

 

I am the Skull God.

(Koo Koo Ka Choo)

 

There are reasons they call me Mad...

@Chris24601, warrl : Yeah, I was thinking something along those lines.
Thank you everyone for your help! (Once again, I apologise for any mistakes.)

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/6.jpg)

As there is only 1 God, all the other dieties must be facets of said God, and then all are available to you!
D&D is a very flexible game system. You can reskin everything to suit your needs. The handbooks can be treated as guidelines rather than canon. With some effort, you can make a mono-theistic world with no magic, no non-human races, no non-god-given powers of any kind. The game is flexible enough to let you do that.

For example, my daughter wanted to play a Catfolk. A feline humanoid race that is not supported in 4e. No problem, I just chose aspects of several existing races to make a hybrid character. I renamed all of her attack powers and feats to fit in to the feline idiom, and voila!! one Catfolk ranger is born! You could easily do that for all of your characters.

If you are interested in reskinning D&D, listen to the Critical Hit podcast from MajorSpoilers.com. The DM there, Rodrigo, reskins monsters and powers all of the time to create monsters that are even more compelling than what WotC have come up with.
Westerness, that was brilliant! Wink
Indeed, the beauty of D&D is playing it how YOU want it to be.  One of the things I like about 4th is the ease of reflavor without warping balance.  Many have said quite a bit of things.  And who cares if you turn the polytheist aspect of D&D into domains of the abrahamic god?  Since it's easy enough to do, I say go for it!  I've been part of an Arthurian style game where clerics and paladins followed specific orders and powers of the Judeo-Christian god.  The irony was that the table consisted of agnostic and atheist players.  Regardless, we had a blast and the characters were fantastic and totally believable!  Your dull may be another person's fun.  This is the world of the subjective, after all.  Also, the biblical times D20 game isn't as easy to track down as the standard D&D.  All it takes is some minor home rules and refluff and there's your custom game.  D&D is a game for everyone!

Crazed undead horror posing as a noble and heroic forum poster!

 

 

Some good pointers for the fellow hobbyist!:

  • KEEP D&D ALIVE, END EDITION WARS!
  • RESPECT PEOPLES' PREFERENCES
  • JUST ENJOY THE GAME!
@ LordOfWeasels: Agreed!

Also, we did look at the Shifter as a substitute for Catfolk, but it wasn't really what we were looking for. That's the beauty of 4e D&D--it's so easy to reskin stuff without breaking the game. The rules and requirements are there for those that need/want them, but the power of the game is the ability to make it your own, whether you are throwing out the pantheon and mythology, or reskinning a Cleric to worship a deity of your choice/creation.
@Chris24601: Exactly. I presented several viewpoints in my post. Take what you like and ignore the rest.
A couple of you have objected to the tone and some of the content of my original reply, so I have distilled it down to the essense of what I was trying to say. I hope you find it more to your liking.
I think the easiest way to do it is to just ger rid of the requirment for the channel divinity to worship a specific God, i dont think that would be gamebreacking, I also think you could play as there is only one, and maybe the devil for the evil gods, and the different 'gods' in D&D are merely factions or sects worshiping the same God but seeing the god and his message in a different way.
I've removed content from this thread. Real world religions and politics are not welcome here.

You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct

You are welcome to discuss the mechanics of Dungeons and Dragons, however discussion of any real world religions beyond this is not allowed.
I think the easiest way to do it is to just ger rid of the requirment for the channel divinity to worship a specific God, i dont think that would be gamebreacking,

Game-breaking, probably not: since you can only use one Channel Divinity per encounter, there's little risk of excessively powerful synergy.

Flavor-breaking, possibly, as the Channel Divinity powers related to different gods are presumably intended to portray different flavors. Of course, if the players with Channel Divinity powers care about flavor this won't be a problem because they won't choose flavor-breaking combinations.

I also think you could play as there is only one, and maybe the devil for the evil gods, and the different 'gods' in D&D are merely factions or sects worshiping the same God but seeing the god and his message in a different way.

I like that better. Following different saints, as mentioned more than once I believe, also works.

"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
Don't forget that the Gnostic and Kabala traditions do allow Secret Words of Power ( Arcane magic ) within a Judeo/Christian settign.

Also there are many legends describe magic spirits or creatures and false goddlings that converted to Christianity. So there could be some very interesting home brewed saints in a setting like this.

As I understand it St. Christopher was a Giant. Not a big guy but an at least two story tall "monster" that followed Jesus because Satan feared the name of Jesus.   

As Doctor Necrotic pointed out Aurtherian legend and story telling involves many Christian ideals in it's heros. But it also involves nature spirits and Druids and Fey powers all working with the Christians. I have even read on variation of Tom Thumb where Merlin was the wizard who gave a farm couple a child the size of a man's thumb. Tom went on to be Aurther's ambasador to the court of Oberon.
The sea looks at the stabillity of the mountian and sighs. The mountian watches the freedom of the sea and cries.
Don't forget that the Gnostic and Kabala



A bunch of posts from this thread already got nuked for mentioning real-world religions and "D&D conversions" of them.  Just FYI.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Another alternative to consider, especially if you're modelling the Medieval church, is that the Channel Divinity options could be tied to specific religious orders based on their focus rather than to the religion as a whole (ex. The Knights Templar get a strength or war based channel divinity while the Knights Hospitaler get a healing based one and the Franciscans get a knowledge based one).



This is the one my friend uses. He runs a Christian themed campaign and simply refluffed all the good dieties into different orders, monastaries, convents etc. The evil dieties likewise became different evil cults that ultimately all worshipped the same bad guy (you know who). The tricky part was the unaligned dieties so he simply made them Christian but who really walk the fine line between doing what is good and what needs to be done to save the world.

It's not my cup of tea (religion is not a big part of my life) but he said the campaign is a lot of fun and explores a lot interesting moral dilemmas.
(Disclaimer: This is my first thread/post, so I apologise in advance for any mistakes)

 Hello everyone!
I am relativley new to D&D (I started playing a few months ago), and I have a problem. I (and my group) all play our P.C's as Christian. Now, the "Channel Divinity" powers require you to worship a certain god, so we don't use them. However, this weakens our party's palidin and cleric. So what would you suggest to balance it?

Thanks! 



Here's a really fun idea I once had for a pro-Christian D&D campaign, to be run as a Sunday school class:

Channel Divinity powers all fall under the same deity, but require the invocation of a prayer - a specificly relevant scriptural passage - to activate. If you go this route, I would seriously recommend renaming all the Channel Divinities to more appropriate titles. Let's look at PHB1 for inspiration: 

Divine Fortune - "For those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."

Turn Undead - "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." 

Divine Mettle - "My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust."

Divine Strength - "For the Lord your God is he who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies, to give you the victory."

Armor of Divinity - "He will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler." 

Swift Rescue - "Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their toil. For if they fall, one will lift up his fellow."

Swift Grace - "Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no S)">cause for stumbling."

Divine Harmony - "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.

Faithful Poise - "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

Divine Favor - "Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go."

Tide of Reprieve - "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

David's Resolve - "You crushed the heads of Leviathan; you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness." 

Divine Radiance - "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Just Reversal - "When justice is done, it is a joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers." 

Like that. Does that sound like a way to go? 
(Disclaimer: This is my first thread/post, so I apologise in advance for any mistakes)

 Hello everyone!
I am relativley new to D&D (I started playing a few months ago), and I have a problem. I (and my group) all play our P.C's as Christian. Now, the "Channel Divinity" powers require you to worship a certain god, so we don't use them. However, this weakens our party's palidin and cleric. So what would you suggest to balance it?

Thanks! 



Here's a really fun idea I once had for a pro-Christian D&D campaign, to be run as a Sunday school class:

Channel Divinity powers all fall under the same deity, but require the invocation of a prayer - a specificly relevant scriptural passage - to activate. If you go this route, I would seriously recommend renaming all the Channel Divinities to more appropriate titles. Let's look at PHB1 for inspiration: 

Divine Fortune - "For those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."

Turn Undead - "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." 

Divine Mettle - "My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust."

Divine Strength - "For the Lord your God is he who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies, to give you the victory."

Armor of Divinity - "He will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler." 

Swift Rescue - "Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their toil. For if they fall, one will lift up his fellow."

Swift Grace - "Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no S)">cause for stumbling."

Divine Harmony - "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.

Faithful Poise - "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

Divine Favor - "Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go."

Tide of Reprieve - "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

David's Resolve - "You crushed the heads of Leviathan; you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness." 

Divine Radiance - "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Just Reversal - "When justice is done, it is a joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers." 

Like that. Does that sound like a way to go? 

Yeah, that's a cool idea. Thanks!

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/6.jpg)

This actually reminds me of the old Microprose PC game Darklands which is set in 15th century Medieval Germany. (and which games like skyrim borrowed from)  While God (capital G) isn't outright given a preference, characters can get the blessings of Saints which, mechanically, improve character stats and provide the equivalent of spells, through prayers. 

I agree with the reskinning concept, the spells and descriptions are just flavor text If you want to do the research there are definitely ways to convert the core pantheon that comes with the 4th edition book into appropriate saints.  In fact if you look around there are probably some source books out ther. 

I think the only place it breaks down is when you start dealing with other races and their pantheons, but again, if you wanted to rewrite or explain it you could just say that the equivalent of a demon or a god to the orcs is just an extradimensional Power, like the Fairie tend to have.


Edit: Something else to consider:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Worthies

I've removed content from this thread. Real world religions and politics are not welcome here.

You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct

You are welcome to discuss the mechanics of Dungeons and Dragons, however discussion of any real world religions beyond this is not allowed.

Quick reply to code of conduct post - I don't actually see the passage you're referring too other than name creation. 
(Disclaimer: This is my first thread/post, so I apologise in advance for any mistakes)

 Hello everyone!
I am relativley new to D&D (I started playing a few months ago), and I have a problem. I (and my group) all play our P.C's as Christian. Now, the "Channel Divinity" powers require you to worship a certain god, so we don't use them. However, this weakens our party's palidin and cleric. So what would you suggest to balance it?

Thanks! 




The Ansu Scale: How Humans regard difference
 
 

The Ansu Scale is a measure of how fairytale figues became to be. People who were distinctly different from the prefered normality of Human were shown contempt and hatred for their differences. The Very tall were seen as something to fear and the small something to despise and mistreat - its why we talk about 'Dwarf Throwing'. At a certain point the beleivability of difference enters the realm of the fantastical - tall become too tall to be human so they are Giants, Ogres, Trolls. Small becomes too small to be Human - and we Get Elves, Dwarves, Fairies.

This scale varies with the preference of individuals and communities - in one community the average might be 5' tall so Dwarves and elves are tolerated to a better degree and the really tall feared as Giants - but in places where the average is taller than usual the smallest become abnormals and the Tallest become above normal.

So when you put elves in communities as respected members of humanity you are violating a human cultural taboo - to not conduct third-person relationships with those who fall outside the acceptable. If elves are acceptable in a community then it is because they have something in common with the people who welcome them into the community. 

ANSU is a Protoindoeuropean Root meaning 'demon' but its subroots are An meaning Ancestor and Su meaning Swine. The Language focus has been on the Ancestor component of the word. Jotunns (Giants of the Norse have -unns, a variation on Ansu), Likewise Huns (-uns being a variation of Ansu). You are effectivly describing someone as being like the ancestors (Physically powerful/Large Barbarians).


How Humans would regard the Gnolls and Werewolves

The Word 'Ghoul' comes from protoindoeuropean roots Ghe- (Demonstrative of) and Ul (To Howl) so the 'Ghoul' of primitive peoples would be anything that looks like a Dog/Wolf and walks upright. would qualify as a Ghoul. That would be so far outside the Circle of 'What is Acceptable' that it wouldnt matter that Gnolls are Waging a War with Werewolves. From the human Point of View they are both the same thing.

How Humans regarded Elves

The Word Elf comes from protoindoeuropean roots 'Albho' meaning 'White' and 'Wight' so The Pale Elves are seen by primitives as 'Wights': Spirits moving in the Woods. So it would take some real cultural understanding and family-level mixing to bring about the acceptable violation of the boundary between them and us.



Increasing Human Height differences

When Rolling for a Human roll: 12d6 inches and add 2 feet so the range is 3 feet to 8 feet. So now Halflings can be unrecognizable from really short humans...
The Citadel Megadungeon: http://yellowdingosappendix.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/the-citadel-mega-dungeon-now-with-room.html
(Disclaimer: This is my first thread/post, so I apologise in advance for any mistakes)

 Hello everyone!
I am relativley new to D&D (I started playing a few months ago), and I have a problem. I (and my group) all play our P.C's as Christian. Now, the "Channel Divinity" powers require you to worship a certain god, so we don't use them. However, this weakens our party's palidin and cleric. So what would you suggest to balance it?

Thanks! 




The Ansu Scale: How Humans regard difference
 
 

The Ansu Scale is a measure of how fairytale figues became to be. People who were distinctly different from the prefered normality of Human were shown contempt and hatred for their differences. The Very tall were seen as something to fear and the small something to despise and mistreat - its why we talk about 'Dwarf Throwing'. At a certain point the beleivability of difference enters the realm of the fantastical - tall become too tall to be human so they are Giants, Ogres, Trolls. Small becomes too small to be Human - and we Get Elves, Dwarves, Fairies.

This scale varies with the preference of individuals and communities - in one community the average might be 5' tall so Dwarves and elves are tolerated to a better degree and the really tall feared as Giants - but in places where the average is taller than usual the smallest become abnormals and the Tallest become above normal.

So when you put elves in communities as respected members of humanity you are violating a human cultural taboo - to not conduct third-person relationships with those who fall outside the acceptable. If elves are acceptable in a community then it is because they have something in common with the people who welcome them into the community. 

ANSU is a Protoindoeuropean Root meaning 'demon' but its subroots are An meaning Ancestor and Su meaning Swine. The Language focus has been on the Ancestor component of the word. Jotunns (Giants of the Norse have -unns, a variation on Ansu), Likewise Huns (-uns being a variation of Ansu). You are effectivly describing someone as being like the ancestors (Physically powerful/Large Barbarians).


How Humans would regard the Gnolls and Werewolves

The Word 'Ghoul' comes from protoindoeuropean roots Ghe- (Demonstrative of) and Ul (To Howl) so the 'Ghoul' of primitive peoples would be anything that looks like a Dog/Wolf and walks upright. would qualify as a Ghoul. That would be so far outside the Circle of 'What is Acceptable' that it wouldnt matter that Gnolls are Waging a War with Werewolves. From the human Point of View they are both the same thing.

How Humans regarded Elves

The Word Elf comes from protoindoeuropean roots 'Albho' meaning 'White' and 'Wight' so The Pale Elves are seen by primitives as 'Wights': Spirits moving in the Woods. So it would take some real cultural understanding and family-level mixing to bring about the acceptable violation of the boundary between them and us.



Increasing Human Height differences

When Rolling for a Human roll: 12d6 inches and add 2 feet so the range is 3 feet to 8 feet. So now Halflings can be unrecognizable from really short humans...

Not sure what yellow dingo's response had to do with it.

If you and your players are interested in playing as Christians and the Channel Divinity requires channeling a god, for role-playing reasons, you could simply say that, in the context of the game, it is God that they are petitioning. I don't know exactly all the details of channel divinity game mechanics as I don't use that edition when I play.

Another method would be to avoid the situation altogether by your group calling the power something else and letting them keep the mechanics. They can role-play it how they want.

A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller. WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells? DM: Awesome. Yes. When in doubt, take action.... that's generally the best course. Even Sun Tsu knew that, and he didn't have internets.
(Disclaimer: This is my first thread/post, so I apologise in advance for any mistakes)

 Hello everyone!
I am relativley new to D&D (I started playing a few months ago), and I have a problem. I (and my group) all play our P.C's as Christian. Now, the "Channel Divinity" powers require you to worship a certain god, so we don't use them. However, this weakens our party's palidin and cleric. So what would you suggest to balance it?

Thanks! 



Here's a really fun idea I once had for a pro-Christian D&D campaign, to be run as a Sunday school class:

Channel Divinity powers all fall under the same deity, but require the invocation of a prayer - a specificly relevant scriptural passage - to activate. If you go this route, I would seriously recommend renaming all the Channel Divinities to more appropriate titles. Let's look at PHB1 for inspiration: 

Divine Fortune - "For those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."

Turn Undead - "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." 

Divine Mettle - "My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust."

Divine Strength - "For the Lord your God is he who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies, to give you the victory."

Armor of Divinity - "He will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler." 

Swift Rescue - "Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their toil. For if they fall, one will lift up his fellow."

Swift Grace - "Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no S)">cause for stumbling."

Divine Harmony - "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.

Faithful Poise - "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

Divine Favor - "Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go."

Tide of Reprieve - "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

David's Resolve - "You crushed the heads of Leviathan; you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness." 

Divine Radiance - "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Just Reversal - "When justice is done, it is a joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers." 

Like that. Does that sound like a way to go? 

Yeah, that's a cool idea. Thanks!

i like
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller. WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells? DM: Awesome. Yes. When in doubt, take action.... that's generally the best course. Even Sun Tsu knew that, and he didn't have internets.
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