My wife is a vampire

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Sorry long post my wife decided after watching a game of ours that she wanted to play too especially since our team is periodically low. She plays occasionally if she feels like it sometimes so she knows the rules a little bit so please dont tell me to have her play something simpler. She wanted to play a vampire so i made her one, i made it within the parameters of the dms house rules until he gave us one more parameter, no evil. granted vampires dont have to be evil i know but that is not how the dm sees it. I optimized like the dm said to do within both my wife and dms parameters and came up with (before the no evil parameters and i dont feel like remaking though i suppose i could just go with half vampire but lots of the goodies go away that i want) vampire spawn 8/ chaos monk 6/ thief acrobat 4 (18th level) yes i know could have made a much more optimized character with something else. The dm said i could take other abilities besides blood drain and energy drain i said that thats not much of an option (though one option is +30 jump +10 speed and featherfall always active which fits the character very well. Now i mentioned a kinda basic story that she was made a vampire unwillingly and later killed her maker (or her maker was done with imortality) so she doesnt really have the evil alignment (actually thinking choatic good or nuetral with good tendencies) that she would probably eat animals and evildoers as well as take out the wicked in order to atone for what she has become.


Sorry if im confusing  


So here is my question, what points can i use to drive home the point that you dont have to be evil to my dm?

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Sorry long post my wife decided after watching a game of ours that she wanted to play too especially since our team is periodically low. She plays occasionally if she feels like it sometimes so she knows the rules a little bit so please dont tell me to have her play something simpler. She wanted to play a vampire so i made her one, i made it within the parameters of the dms house rules until he gave us one more parameter, no evil. granted vampires dont have to be evil i know but that is not how the dm sees it. I optimized like the dm said to do within both my wife and dms parameters and came up with (before the no evil parameters and i dont feel like remaking though i suppose i could just go with half vampire but lots of the goodies go away that i want) vampire spawn 8/ chaos monk 6/ thief acrobat 4 (18th level) yes i know could have made a much more optimized character with something else. The dm said i could take other abilities besides blood drain and energy drain i said that thats not much of an option (though one option is +30 jump +10 speed and featherfall always active which fits the character very well. Now i mentioned a kinda basic story that she was made a vampire unwillingly and later killed her maker (or her maker was done with imortality) so she doesnt really have the evil alignment (actually thinking choatic good or nuetral with good tendencies) that she would probably eat animals and evildoers as well as take out the wicked in order to atone for what she has become.


Sorry if im confusing  


So here is my question, what points can i use to drive home the point that you dont have to be evil to my dm?

by the rules of the Book of exalted deed pag. 29 any creature can be redeemed while don't are outsiders with evil subtype, and your wife can drink blood from you without kill you or other creatures without kill them.

or can take the sanctified template.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
never look in there much, i dont like alignment restrictions much or much about divine casters in general (specific diety n such) but its a good point. To everyone else: it doesnt have to be rules based it can also be real life based or whatever, rai, raw comparisons ect. ect.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/1.jpg)

It should be obvious that any creature capable of independent thought can choose its own moral and ethical path in life.  She's a free-willed sapient entity, her actions are her own to determine, and those actions determine one's alignment.

 Heck, if you have to, just claim she had a go-round with a Helm Of Opposite Alignment in her past; she used to be (whatever) Evil, now she's (opposite of whatever) Good.
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i didnt mention earlier that i used a few arguments earlier but i didnt really use that one either, im happy for all the help, also considering the ability i mentioned earlier except i kinda optimized to make use of the lvl drain for monk unarmed attacks and dont know if i should give it up for the jump speed and feather fall (being undead and a vampire kinda makes some of the monks abilites useless, whats one more lol) what do you all think?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/1.jpg)

i didnt mention earlier that i used a few arguments earlier but i didnt really use that one either, im happy for all the help, also considering the ability i mentioned earlier except i kinda optimized to make use of the lvl drain for monk unarmed attacks and dont know if i should give it up for the jump speed and feather fall (being undead and a vampire kinda makes some of the monks abilites useless, whats one more lol) what do you all think?



Energy Drain isn't 'evil' (it has no alignment descriptor), so there shouldn't be an issue with it.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
It should be obvious that any creature capable of independent thought can choose its own moral and ethical path in life.  She's a free-willed sapient entity, her actions are her own to determine, and those actions determine one's alignment.



Exactly.  If you have free will you can choose your alignment.

Heck, if you have to, just claim she had a go-round with a Helm Of Opposite Alignment in her past; she used to be (whatever) Evil, now she's (opposite of whatever) Good.



Good idea.
yeah i know, and neither is blood drain though those are the abilities he says are evil.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/1.jpg)

yeah i know, and neither is blood drain though those are the abilities he says are evil.



He's wrong.
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I know that, you know that, countless other people know that but based on perceptions would you not agree? i mean lets say you walk in on a vampire feeding, what would be your first thought or was draining away thier very essence? I can see where he is coming from but if played right it doesnt have to be that way and thats the point im trying to make to him. People can be very hard to persuade when they have ideas concrete in thier head thats why im looking for great persuasive ideas. now that im thinking of it is thier anyone who wants to argue his side of the point?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/1.jpg)

Nothing in the description of either blood drain nor energy drain gives it the evil descriptor, therefore it is not 'inherently evil' by the rules of the game.
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Another option, if Steve the DM is getting butthurt by her playing a vampire, would be to instead give her the Deathless template.
If she still really wants to be a vampire, then he needs to look at more D&D material. Jander Sunstar from Forgotten Realms is a good place to start. Then have him look up "Alignment" in the vampire entry of the DMG and hammer home the fact that it says "usually evil", not "always evil".
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
but the energy drain can be changed for wis drain that can be suppress, this variant are from libris mortis.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
You should remember that D+D was intended to be a game of heroic fantasy and at one time nobody played a monster or an evil creature. While people in the real world can make subtle and morally ambiguous arguements D+D features a sort of neverending battle between good and evil that a person in the D+D world would have to be insane to ignore. Many Dms prefer a world that thematically features this for story purposes as well. If you want to play a travelling zoo rather than a more traditional party you may need to find another Dm,learn to Dm yourself or tell your wife to play something that fits into the Dms world.

I will immediately report any Phishers or Lonely Hearts Scam Artists.

You should remember that D+D was intended to be a game of heroic fantasy and at one time nobody played a monster or an evil creature. While people in the real world can make subtle and morally ambiguous arguements D+D features a sort of neverending battle between good and evil that a person in the D+D world would have to be insane to ignore. Many Dms prefer a world that thematically features this for story purposes as well. If you want to play a travelling zoo rather than a more traditional party you may need to find another Dm,learn to Dm yourself or tell your wife to play something that fits into the Dms world.

Something to note on the alignment front is that all creatures from the real world are (racially) neutral, acting primarily to satisfy their own needs without a particular bias towards helping or harming others, while some creatures in D&D have a bias that isn't racially represented in the real world.

So, for some creatures, an entire race can end up naturally leaning towards the kind of mindset we usually see in things like serial killers or noted philanthropists.  Sometimes this is described as being cultural to some degree, while for others, it's just that their natural baseline aims towards good or evil.  Demons (for example) have a natural tendency to want to harm others, instead of acting purely in the best interests of their own survival.

In the case of vampires, it tends to represent an inherent bloodthirst that generally exceeds simple physical need, and fictional vampires that would generally be considered to have a good alignment frequently struggle with that urge and the continuous corruption of their minds that it brings (along with other factors, like a loss of empathy with the living, and cultural stasis over the centuries).  It's the difference between being a proper vampire and being a superhero with a blood fetish.

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I have one word in mind that really sways the argument in your favor.

"Blade".

If you tilting your head to the side saying "what", let me explain if you aren't familiar with him. Blade is a character from the marvel comic book universe that is indeed a vampire that hunts other vampires. Granted he is generally a almost entirely unique case in the marvel universe and also a "day walker", a vampire that can stand the light of the sun, but his base concept is pretty straight forward (good vampire kills evil vampire, uses special serum to stave off blood lust, fights against his vampire nature for the betterment of mankind). Then there is an anime/manga called Vampire Hunter D that is set thousands of years into thee future in a post apocalyptic world and follows the story of Dracula's half human son, who is (you guessed it) a vampire hunter. There are numeral other examples of "good" vampires, and plenty of ways to spin them in D&D. Oe pf the methods I found for this was to have the vampire have a cohort that was either a cleric or a binder who let them feed off of their blood, and then heal themselves.

The vampire them self is an agent of good that uses their undead immunities to fight their own kind, or other evils. A vampire mind flayer hunter for example, could e a really nasty foe for a colony of ilithids, actually able to not only infiltrate their home with ease, but also able to dominate mind flayers thralls, or even the mind flayers themselves, well being immune to many of their psyonic attacks. In the end, as it's been said, sentience is the main deciding factor for alignment in D&D for any reasonable DM, and there are plenty of things that a vampire could do that benefits humanity, it's just a matter of role playing it properly.

Other vampires to get insipiration from.  Angel, Spike, Morbius or Alucard. 


 Really the idea of a good vampire is almost tired and worn out by this point its so common.


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or Edward/the cullens.

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Some thoughts. Under the Libris Mortis rules blade would a half-vampire. His mother was pregnant ,attacked by a vampire ,then gave birth to Blade. Some creatures in D+D have alignment restrictions , free will doesn't count. You're just born or created to be bad. Because a vampire is made from negative energy that twistes them body and soul they become evil, it's one of the quirks of the alignment/religous system that underlies the game. Even lycanthropy can change you from good to evil or vice versa. so in real life we extoll the virtues of free will and moral ambiguity, this doesn't really exist in the game.

I will immediately report any Phishers or Lonely Hearts Scam Artists.

Taradusis, I beg to differ.  Would you perhaps not compare the world of comic books to the world of D&D?  Are you familiar with the character Hellboy?  Of demonic descent, he has made the decision of his own free will to fight on the side of good.  I wouldn't even classify him as a half-fiend, but as a born-straight demon or devil.

Neue 
Because a vampire is made from negative energy that twistes them body and soul they become evil, it's one of the quirks of the alignment/religous system that underlies the game.

Jander Sunstar would like to have a few words with you.  So would Makala.
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Because a vampire is made from negative energy that twistes them body and soul they become evil, it's one of the quirks of the alignment/religous system that underlies the game.

Jander Sunstar would like to have a few words with you.  So would Makala.

I suppose it comes down to how the DM understands vampires' inherent nature. If becoming a vampire makes one evil - especially if it's a magical affliction/curse as opposed to a primarily biological disease - then he's within his rights to declare, "In my world, all vampires are evil, notwithstanding counterexamples in novels or comics."

This may or may not be "good DM-ing," but he ultimately gets to decide how his world works.
Some thoughts. Under the Libris Mortis rules blade would a half-vampire. His mother was pregnant ,attacked by a vampire ,then gave birth to Blade. Some creatures in D+D have alignment restrictions , free will doesn't count. You're just born or created to be bad. Because a vampire is made from negative energy that twistes them body and soul they become evil, it's one of the quirks of the alignment/religous system that underlies the game. Even lycanthropy can change you from good to evil or vice versa. so in real life we extoll the virtues of free will and moral ambiguity, this doesn't really exist in the game.



Underlies your game, maybe.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
use the sanctified template at last, your wife become good.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Allow me to share my thoughts on my decades of experiance in adding girlfriends to the game. My first experiance involved letting a girlfriend play a talking wolf at a time when everybody else was playing the five good races. I also allowed her to give me a funny haircut before the game. About 1 hour later the game dissolved into people mocking my hair and the favoritism I had been showing the new girlfriend. I smartened up and helped her to draw up an elven female wizard. Years later I had a girlfriend who I taught Marvel Super Heros and D+D. I didn't give any breaks and treated her like any other player at the table,what a huge difference. The lesson I got is treat every female gamer just like any other player,because if the Dm doesn't run his game , then nobody is running this game.

I will immediately report any Phishers or Lonely Hearts Scam Artists.