Playtester Profile - Mand 12

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In this week's Playtester Profile, we share Mand12's thoughts on how the D&D Next playtest is going and hopes for the future!
Trevor Kidd Community Manager
Link is broke

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

And I have no desire to hear those thoughts.
Am I the only one that didn't understand a thing about what 4th edition style is according to Mand?
Am I the only one that didn't understand a thing about what 4th edition style is according to Mand?



That depends are you making a joke or did you find some way to actually see the article?
It's listed on the Forum's home page, even if the link above is broken.
Am I the only one that didn't understand a thing about what 4th edition style is according to Mand?



That depends are you making a joke or did you find some way to actually see the article?



I got to read it. But I went on the blog, I didn't try the link in this thread.
Okay found it. Apparently the OP of this thread has a link to the thread and a link to the blog at the same time. The correct blog link is: community.wizards.com/dndnext/blog/2012/...

And having read it... I agree. The description of what 4e is seems pretty incomprehensible, and doesn't line up with what I think of when I think 4e at all. 
And having read it... I agree. The description of what 4e is seems pretty incomprehensible, and doesn't line up with what I think of when I think 4e at all. 



I agree with you. 4e isnt complicated, as he seems to make it out to be (lots of moving parts, he keeps saying). I found 4e to be much more streamlined than previous editions.
Talking just about the 4E question:

I think the point he was trying to get across about 4E in the first paragraph was the inter-relatedness of everything. The underlying math in 4E was clearly more calculated than in previous editions; every component was considered in relation to every other component.

This was a noble ambition, and when it worked it was excellent game design and a joy to play and run; when it didn't work it was either a straightjacket or an errata hose, blasting at a pace that made the paper books obsolete almost before you broke the shrinkwrap.  

The second and start of the third paragraphs seems contradictory to me. To paraphrase "Healing surges were great because it means you didn't need a healer character" followed by "Collaboration and teamwork is great." To me, the more you can heal yourself the LESS you need collaboration and teamwork. That may be  a personal taste thing though.

The most interesting part of that section to me however was: "Closer standing between DM and player, where the DM may be creating the adventure but the players are an important part of that process as well."
I agree with the opinion that 4E wanted to do that; I just disagree that that is what actually occurred. I think too often the tone and structure of the 4E rules made it seem like the DM was the umpire and not the storyteller. "Say yes to your players" as DM advice was emphasized; "Don't be a dick and deliberately wreck the DMs world" as Player advice was not.

I thank the random whims of the universe every week for the good fortune that my players have internalized Wheatons law, so my 4E campaign has been fun to run.

All in all, an interesting perspective.
Link should be fixed now.  Sorry about that.

All around helpful simian

So, are they drawing these from somewhere, or are they just slowly doing every poster on the forum?

If so, I can't wait to see Playtester Profile - Lokiare.  That will be... something else.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
ROFLMAO!! Yeeep.
And I have no desire to hear those thoughts.


Was that really needed?
So, are they drawing these from somewhere, or are they just slowly doing every poster on the forum?

If so, I can't wait to see Playtester Profile - Lokiare.  That will be... something else.



I'm pretty sure they're ignoring the more vocal dissenters. Also I think Mand was in the Friends and Family playtest, and I'm pretty sure I noticed a few others who had stated they were as well. It may be they're drawing from that group.
And having read it... I agree. The description of what 4e is seems pretty incomprehensible, and doesn't line up with what I think of when I think 4e at all. 



I agree with you. 4e isnt complicated, as he seems to make it out to be (lots of moving parts, he keeps saying). I found 4e to be much more streamlined than previous editions.



I think he meant that there's a LOT going on from round to round. Players have to pay pretty close attention to the action at the table, from what a Marked monster is doing, how that mark effects the Fighter, how such-and-such power can effect that particular marked creature, immediate interrupts, etc. There's a LOT going on at once. Now look at DDN and you really don't have that. You have spell effects lasting multiple turns which doesn't need more micro-management, there are little combat effects happening and changing per round. Some people think this give the game dynamics and a shifting pace (myself included) while others felt it muddled the combat part too much, made the game slower. Whether or not this is needed is Next is up for debate (personally, I'd like a little more but not as much as 4E could bring to bear).


Talking just about the 4E question:
The second and start of the third paragraphs seems contradictory to me. To paraphrase "Healing surges were great because it means you didn't need a healer character" followed by "Collaboration and teamwork is great." To me, the more you can heal yourself the LESS you need collaboration and teamwork. That may be  a personal taste thing though.



I don't see it as contradictory. Everyone wants to act a part and play a role, but not everyone wants that role to be "healer". In 4E, you can make a leader-less party and function farily well. Many classes have self-healing powers as well as ways of healing others that isn't taylored specifically for the cleric/healer class. That sort of versatility allows for a more diverse party. A Fighter, Druid, Bladesinger, Rogue, Warlock party can still function as a unit without major bumps in the road because there's not 'true' healer in the group. They can rely on multiple feats, powers, and class features (not to mention potions) that can carry the healer role instead of forcing one player to pick that role because it's needed. I haven't seen this case so far in D&D:Next. It's almost as if the group requires a cleric or heal-bot to carry on any sort of adventur that has more than a few battles planned.


The most interesting part of that section to me however was: "Closer standing between DM and player, where the DM may be creating the adventure but the players are an important part of that process as well."
I agree with the opinion that 4E wanted to do that; I just disagree that that is what actually occurred. I think too often the tone and structure of the 4E rules made it seem like the DM was the umpire and not the storyteller. "Say yes to your players" as DM advice was emphasized; "Don't be a dick and deliberately wreck the DMs world" as Player advice was not.

I thank the random whims of the universe every week for the good fortune that my players have internalized Wheatons law, so my 4E campaign has been fun to run.

All in all, an interesting perspective.



I don't think any D&D system can eliminate that sort of player in the game. They're going to be there regardless if it's OD&D, 3rd Edition, 4E, D&D:Next, etc. The system can't account for that, but it can account for DMs playstyles to be more open and inclusive. I think, too, that this is far more a cultural shift in player and DMs with the last decade or so in additoin to the changes in the edition themselves. I remember in my very late AD&D days where DMs often ruled with an IRON FIST and were super-suspicious of every single suggesion or request that a player might bring forth. This was often because, IMO, the game promoted a sort of "The DMs job is to kill you, your job is to survive. Good luck" kind of attitude. Hence the duplicity between the two. Players of AD&D went on to become DMs for 3E and 4E and I think a lot of them were far more interested in telling stories and finishing quests with struggles ahead instead of death traps every 10 seconds.
I want to congratulate Mand12 on the interview.  I think it was well done.

I confess I think it's too bad lokiare is currently on hiatus.  I think he would have had a stroke to see Mand12 get interviewed.
Interesting interview Mand12. I don't share all your opinions, but I am trying to share your same optimism. With all that happened with the fighter from the first packet to second packet, I still have some hope that enough will be done to change my mind about buy 5e.

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of random stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke
Despite my frequent clashes with Mand12, I think some of you guys aren't being nice.  Come on.  Everyone can have an opinion.  I did get that he loves combat superiority which explains his passionate arguments on that thread.  

I think part of what he was trying to say on his likes in 4e was the "systemic"  nature of the game.  He admited that the particular system wasn't something he had to have but it still felt like when he described it that he was lauding uniform structure of the game in that regard.  The ability to take a class and reflavor it to almost any other class for example.

 
I want to congratulate Mand12 on the interview.  I think it was well done.

I confess I think it's too bad lokiare is currently on hiatus.  I think he would have had a stroke to see Mand12 get interviewed.



Ditto, and I have this lovely mental movie playing of a sudden scream of, "They interviewed WHO???", followed by a laptop being thrown out of an open window.
Congrats, Mand12, on the interview.  When do I get my interview?
CORE MORE, NOT CORE BORE!
To the playtesting community: Keep providing feedback. They are listening, they are changing things based on our feedback. They want us to be happy as much as we do, if not more. But it has to be constructive - they have to be able to take your feedback and do something with it.



I though that this statement was pretty much right on the money.

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Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours
Good interview with lots of pros and cons. 

Congradulations to Mand12 ! 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Mand12 is well versed in 4e and a good advocate for it. It's good to see that he is positive about DnD Next and willing to work together with people who prefer other editions.
Congrats Mand12,

Even when we've disagreed, I always regard you as a voice of reason (even when I think your reason is cockeyed wrong ). 
The 4e question is, IMO, spot on, word for word.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
To the playtesting community: Keep providing feedback. They are listening, they are changing things based on our feedback. They want us to be happy as much as we do, if not more. But it has to be constructive - they have to be able to take your feedback and do something with it.



I though that this statement was pretty much right on the money.


Indeed.
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
So, are they drawing these from somewhere, or are they just slowly doing every poster on the forum?

Trevor takes people from the D&D community that are suggested to him since he said we could suggest people we wanted profiled at the end of Tracy Barnett's interview.

I know he does because that's what i did when i suggested Mand12's candidature to Trevor in July. ;)


WoTC_Trevor: Now that we've got a few of these under our belt, I'd like to hear from you to find out who in the D&D community you'd like to see profiled. If you have any suggestions for who should be in the next playtester profiles, please let me know in the comments or send me a PM. Also, if there are any specific questions you'd like to see asked send those my way as well.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Mand12 is well versed in 4e and a good advocate for it. It's good to see that he is positive about DnD Next and willing to work together with people who prefer other editions.



Exactly, that's why I'm frustrated I didn't understand...
And I have no desire to hear those thoughts.


Was that really needed?




Are you really needed?

The reason I am not interested, is that the interviewer in question is someone I personally find adversarial, aggressive, and generally not someone's opinion I respect or care about.

The biased thing aside. 

I'm just calling it like it is, in my world
adversarial, aggressive

The irony is not lost Surprised

The irony is not lost 




Irony...that's like copper, but with bits of iron in it...
And I have no desire to hear those thoughts.


Was that really needed?




Are you really needed?

The reason I am not interested, is that the interviewer in question is someone I personally find adversarial, aggressive, and generally not someone's opinion I respect or care about.

The biased thing aside. 

I'm just calling it like it is, in my world



Seriously, your desire or lack of desire to hear his thoughts is irrelevant, and your insistence on voicing it in a thread that's made for discussing the actual content of the interview is disruptive and childish.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Are you really needed?


Oh boy, you sure showed me. *rolls eyes*

The reason I am not interested, is that the interviewer in question is someone I personally find adversarial, aggressive, and generally not someone's opinion I respect or care about.


Then don't click on the topic.
This topic was made by a staff member to discuss Mand's opinions, if you have no interest in reading or discussing it,m then simply...don't read it and don't discuss it. There was literally no reason for you to enter this topic.

I'm just calling it like it is, in my world


Except this isn't your world.
And I have no desire to hear those thoughts.


Was that really needed?




Are you really needed?

The reason I am not interested, is that the interviewer in question is someone I personally find adversarial, aggressive, and generally not someone's opinion I respect or care about.

The biased thing aside. 

I'm just calling it like it is, in my world



And just when I thought that my opinion of someone could not drop any lower. 

In any case, congrats Mand12. Nice interview! 
The second and start of the third paragraphs seems contradictory to me. To paraphrase "Healing surges were great because it means you didn't need a healer character" followed by "Collaboration and teamwork is great." To me, the more you can heal yourself the LESS you need collaboration and teamwork. That may be  a personal taste thing though.



Yes because we all know that "Teamwork is doing someone else's job." At least that's what I learned at specific jobs I've held...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
So, are they drawing these from somewhere, or are they just slowly doing every poster on the forum?

If so, I can't wait to see Play tester Profile - Lokiare.  That will be... something else.



They won't touch me with a 10' pole, but Let's see what my interview would look like:

Why don’t you start off by telling us a little bit about you and your history with D&D, what you're playing now, and anything else you want people to know about you?

I started with early 2E, and moved to mid 3.0E, then I went wide and experimented with Rifts, Shadowrun, Deadlands, and a few others, then I found 4E which I still play almost exclusively to this day.

What do you think of the D&D Next play test so far?

I think that there are many places that need improvement, there are broken spells, broken spell combinations, power gaps between the classes, I'd rather classes be balanced within each pillar rather than good at one pillar and less good at other pillars, I won't buy the game if they don't make a REAL non-vancian Wizard options (unlike the flavor locked Warlock and Sorcerer), I do like Combat Superiority and think just like spells it should be given to all martial style classes. Overall I see things I don't like and a few diamonds in the rough that I do like.

What are some of those really good parts? Is there anything that you're really enjoying?

Like I said, combat superiority is good, backgrounds, and specialties too. They took away skills from classes and put them into backgrounds, so now we can have charismatic Fighters and Strong Wizards to an extent (with Fighters getting Diplomacy and Bluff and Wizards getting physical based skills). Combat Superiority is an awesome mechanic. It needs to be given to each martial class (i.e. Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlord) with slightly different recharge mechanics and requirements and very different maneuvers. The faster combat is also nice, but the simplicity of the core is what causes that, which means the moment they layer some complexity on it will disappear.

Now for those not so good parts. What don't you like and what kind of changes would you like to see made to fix things?

I don't like the way the casting style is tied to the classes. It would only take a few paragraphs to decouple the vancian casting system from the Wizard class, the spell point system from the Sorcerer, and the AE mechanic from the Warlock and make them interchangeable. Let them each keep their spell lists and just swap out the casting system. Also Rogues need a way to deal sneak attack damage reliably. currently if you're not a halfling Rogue you are at a disadvantage as you can get one ranged sneak attack and then you are done for the fight.

We talk about 4E-style gaming in the community a lot, but I think some of us are thinking of different 4E elements when we do that. What makes a 4E-style game to you and what elements from 4E are you still hoping to see make their way in to D&D Next?

The main thing that 4E brought to the table was player empowerment. Players were able to direct the action without playing the "DM may I?" mini-game. They could look at their character sheet and know exactly how a power would play out. This also freed the DM up from having to adjudicate every attempt by the players to do something outside the rules of "I hit it and then hit it again" that melee classes of previous editions were full of. There was also balance. If 5E gets only one thing from 4E it needs to be balance across all classes. Hopefully the Warlord makes it into 5E. We've seen some resistance from previous edition hold outs that don't want to see the Warlord in 5E. The Fluff separated from the mechanics is also important as it not only allows refluffing it also lets the rules be written in a solid manner that is hard to misunderstand.

In this week's Legends & Lore, Mike mentioned a few things the D&D Next team wanted to address based on feedback. What did you think of those elements? Anything you're happy to see changing, or anything you don't want them to mess with?

I like the Combat Superiority and the idea of encounter spells, but they need to do it right.

Do you have any favorite classes you're hoping to see in a future play test update?

A non-Vancian Wizard. A Necromancer class would be nice.

Thanks much for taking the time to sit down with us Lokiare. Any last words for the D&D Next team or the play testing community?

The D&D Next Team really needs to start doing honest unbiased surveys and they need to do them more often. Smaller more often surveys. They also need to enter the forums and start talking about the game. At first it will be hard and they will get flamed, but after the initial adjustment period they might find that they will get much better feedback on ideas they post there. The play testing community needs to be brutal and direct with their feedback. Anything less will lead to a game that the developers will love, but that the general community will hate.
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I want to congratulate Mand12 on the interview.  I think it was well done.

I confess I think it's too bad lokiare is currently on hiatus.  I think he would have had a stroke to see Mand12 get interviewed.



Ditto, and I have this lovely mental movie playing of a sudden scream of, "They interviewed WHO???", followed by a laptop being thrown out of an open window.



Really, I don't get very emotional even though it might seem that way and I really don't have a problem with Mand12 or anyone. I have problems with false hoods and things of that nature. I don't attack the poster I attack the idea...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
 At first it will be hard and they will get flamed, but after the initial adjustment period they might find that they will get much better feedback on ideas they post there. The play testing community needs to be brutal and direct with their feedback. Anything less will lead to a game that the developers will love, but that the general community will hate.



Advocating (or even acknowledging) that the developers would get flamed is exactly why they won't, and shouldn't, come here. That sort of behavior (the flaming) is childish, unprofessional, and acts as a wedge between the players and the developers.

Yes, before you even shoot it back, the forums have gotten better. But they still aren't good. If/when people learn how to disagree without insulting the developers and calling them hacks, maybe that'll work. But right now, I don't see any good coming from the developers being here.

For those confused on how DDN's modular rules might work, this may provide some insight: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/the-world-of-darkness-shines-when-it-abandons-canon

@mikemearls: Uhhh... do you really not see all the 3e/4e that's basically the entire core system?

 

It is entirely unnecessary to denigrate someone else's approach to gaming in order to validate your own.

 At first it will be hard and they will get flamed, but after the initial adjustment period they might find that they will get much better feedback on ideas they post there. The play testing community needs to be brutal and direct with their feedback. Anything less will lead to a game that the developers will love, but that the general community will hate.



Advocating (or even acknowledging) that the developers would get flamed is exactly why they won't, and shouldn't, come here. That sort of behavior (the flaming) is childish, unprofessional, and acts as a wedge between the players and the developers.

Yes, before you even shoot it back, the forums have gotten better. But they still aren't good. If/when people learn how to disagree without insulting the developers and calling them hacks, maybe that'll work. But right now, I don't see any good coming from the developers being here.




Part of the reason the forums are 'so bad' is that WotC customer service is horrible. Part of that service is communication. Just showing up on the forums and posting a comment every once in a while would be a huge step toward good communication. They've taken the first step with the open play test. If each of their employees were required to make 5 posts a day on the forums I think you would see a huge turn around. You might get some angry posters at first, but then the ORCs would show up and everything would be fine...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.


Part of the reason the forums are 'so bad' is that WotC customer service is horrible. Part of that service is communication. Just showing up on the forums and posting a comment every once in a while would be a huge step toward good communication. They've taken the first step with the open play test. If each of their employees were required to make 5 posts a day on the forums I think you would see a huge turn around. You might get some angry posters at first, but then the ORCs would show up and everything would be fine...



Or, yanno, we players could maybe police our own, point out when people are violating Wheaton's Law, and generally not break that ourselves, especially when dealing with or talking about the developers.

It's called taking responsibility for one's actions. If folks on the boards aren't willing to do that, then the developers will continue to not be likely to come here. Simple as that.

For those confused on how DDN's modular rules might work, this may provide some insight: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/the-world-of-darkness-shines-when-it-abandons-canon

@mikemearls: Uhhh... do you really not see all the 3e/4e that's basically the entire core system?

 

It is entirely unnecessary to denigrate someone else's approach to gaming in order to validate your own.