Beastmaster ascension is OP in Collective Might.

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Seriosuly, if your deck does not have any PERMANENT answers for enchantments, you pretty much lost as soon as this hits the board...

I have a 1 drop  and a beastmaster ascension so I don't play the evolving wilds first...I play my sprout to needle some damage...
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Turn two I just drop a land despite having 16 two mana drops in my deck and turn three I drop a midnight haunting to put two 1/1 fliers on the board...obviously I want to drop the Beastmaster Ascension turn 4 with three swinging creatures...
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Tht is exactly what I do and it has 3 counters.....turn 4
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Up close and personal....
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Turn 5 I drop a liege and swing again giving it 6 total counters......I MISSED MY 2 drop, this would have been 7 counters and a turn 5 WIN if I had one of my 16 two drops in my hand to start....
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Turn 6 it doesn't matter what I play but I drop two 2 mana creatures just for the hell of it and swing and while the creatures swing 4 more counters get added and all my creatures get +5/5
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Swinging for a million damage on turn 6:
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I'm thinking this card should cost 5 mana in this game. Maybe I am wrong but there are a lot of decks that have serious trouble with enchantents....This is my biggest fear with Talrand playing this deck. Even if you return it to the players hand it, it gets recast and whatever tokens are on the board swing next turn and pump it back up....




Beastmaster Ascension is indeed pretty beast.  

But how come in your screens the opponent seemed to do nothing the whole game?



 
Beastmaster Ascension is indeed pretty beast.  

But how come in your screens the opponent seemed to do nothing the whole game?

 



I'm guessing he had enchantments only? It happens occasionally, I see people only running 8 creatures in that deck and its why I'll never do it....He put a followed footsteps on my liege turn 5.

I suppose a turn  2 spiritdancer/stalker, turn 3 empyrial arnmor and turn 4 daybreak coronet would have hurt me as well. that is just ridiculous when it occurs as well...

But I mean anything short of that combo on his part and its game over....
It is not that that broken. I only run 1 copy. It is a conditional card and doesnt work if your board is empty. Intangible Virtue offers more, I feel, and allows you tapping shenanigans with Knotvine Paladin and Selesnya Evangel.
You had that game won without Beastmaster Ascension. You were swinging for lethal before the counters hit and turned it on.


That game in no way shows how Beastmaster Ascension is overpowered. A premise I don't buy anyway.  
You had that game won without Beastmaster Ascension. You were swinging for lethal before the counters hit and turned it on.


That game in no way shows how Beastmaster Ascension is overpowered. A premise I don't buy anyway.  



If he had a creature or two out it would have mattered. I've won a few games due to this card and lost a few to it as well.
It is not that that broken. I only run 1 copy. It is a conditional card and doesnt work if your board is empty. Intangible Virtue offers more, I feel, and allows you tapping shenanigans with Knotvine Paladin and Selesnya Evangel.



I'm running that too. I go rid of the Lieges and Eladamri's Call too...

Call me crazy but I don't think I need either....

I have two siklaah spider just in case to kill fliers though....everything elsei s cheap (32 total 1-3 mana drops...)
i think beastmaster ascension is a little overpowered with the whole token style gameplay from collective might, because even if your up against big defenses, what does collective might use?...tokens ...and tokens that can easily get replaced and u swing with three or four tokens this turn and rump it up to same next turn and you got 1/1s to 6/6s going at you or even have 7 little token 1/1s out and your foe is like "ohh i got this" then you put beastmaster out your main phase before combat and thats usually game...definite one turn ko card if used correctly.
I'm not sure Ascensions isn't a "win more" card in this deck, and I'm not running it at the moment. I'd definitely use this over Overrun here though.
...whatever
Attacking with 7 1/1 creatures doesn't necessarily win games. 7 6/6 creatures are a different story. How is this win more?
Just doesn't seem necessary. I'm already running five cards that pump my tokens beyond 1/1 permanently. The times I've used it, I used it like Overrun, casting it and immediately attacking with seven creatures. Every time I used it, I pretty much had the game in hand. 
...whatever
lol @ OP this card can  be removed easliy from the Field  just need to run the right decks. 
it's not overpowered as one or two 2 toughness creatures will stop you from being able to attack with tokens early and get the counters. You were just attacking an empty board. The deck can't produce tokens fast enough to attack and play any sort of defense against bigger creatures for a 3 drop that needs 7 counters to be considered OP.  Even when you play a 1st turn Sprout, 2nd turn Virtue, 3rd turn midnight haunting, 4th turn hero of bladehold and 5th turn parallel lives, that's still almost 6 turns the opponent has to get defense up before BeastMaster Ascension is an issue.
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Not only that the more pump effects this deck plays the more unreliable it becomes. Sure it can be explosive but a sweeper can leave you with a bunch of useless enchantments.
Let's settle down now Killa. What you fail to mention is, that in the screenshots, your opponent mulled to four. Not to mention he didn't play a single spell that entire game (more than likely due to that mull to 4, he only had enchantments in hand, no creatures to play them on).

Things get a lot different with Beastmaster Ascension, once, oh you know, your opponent starts interacting with you. Yeah, it'll snatch you a win every now and again, but can you honestly tell me it's more reliable than an Overrun (where even 2 lowly 1/1s represent 8 points of trample damage), a Sigil Blessing, or Selesnya Guildmage's +1/+1 ability?

It's honestly not that good and it's a bit of overkill. Ascension really never saw play when it was standard legal except in decks with a lot of elves, Eldrazi spawn generators (the creatures and Awakening Zone), coupled with that land that generates a 0/1 plant token when it comes into play.
More or less my point. You aren't really going to cast this or get much out of it unless you already have the game in hand, or can attack with 7 creatures in one shot which if you can do you probably have the game in hand. 
...whatever
Beastmaster ascension is good but I don't think it's overpowered. All the other decks have ways to deal with it too so I think it's OK.
Beastmaster would be win-more in a deck like PI but I don't really find it so in CM.

"If you can attack with 7 creatures then you probably won the game" is a fair enough statement for most decks, but in this deck it is precisely Beastmaster Ascension that ENABLES you to attack with 7 1/1s and 2/2s.  Otherwise they'd be sitting back not doing much.

I slightly prefer it to Overrun because it's 2G instead of 2GGG 
I remember back when I played paper magic, my friend was playing Beastmaster Ascension and I was playing some U/X deck. When he got the 7 counters on the ascension and swung in, I bounced the Ascension, then blocked and killed most of his creatures. He wasn't very happy about that.

On the other hand, Overrun isn't as easy to see coming, Ascesion gives your opponent time to plan for it, Overrun, not so much. 

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I don't have problems getting 7 creatures out with this deck and that doesn't have to mean my opponent lost more than 5 life to that point. It's Overrun number 3+4, which is the most reliable win condition of this deck. Plus you can play it earlier if your opponent plays a deck light on enchantment removal.
Let's settle down now Killa. What you fail to mention is, that in the screenshots, your opponent mulled to four. Not to mention he didn't play a single spell that entire game (more than likely due to that mull to 4, he only had enchantments in hand, no creatures to play them on).

Things get a lot different with Beastmaster Ascension, once, oh you know, your opponent starts interacting with you. Yeah, it'll snatch you a win every now and again, but can you honestly tell me it's more reliable than an Overrun (where even 2 lowly 1/1s represent 8 points of trample damage), a Sigil Blessing, or Selesnya Guildmage's +1/+1 ability?

It's honestly not that good and it's a bit of overkill. Ascension really never saw play when it was standard legal except in decks with a lot of elves, Eldrazi spawn generators (the creatures and Awakening Zone), coupled with that land that generates a 0/1 plant token when it comes into play.



As noted, I have played other games to the same extent----both good and bad (me on the receiving end of this). You don't have to do damage to get a counter, only swing and with 16-18 two drops you have nothing but creatures to call and pump out every turn. I guess the question is what decks can be reasonably expected to deal with enchantments?

NO ANSWER
---Liliana no but has some removal and stall (turn 4 obliterator so one card maybe?)
---Talrand only counters and holding mana for counters against a token heavy creature deck means you are dead anyways.... (disperse stalls a turn as you have no removal or way of stopping the abundant creatures)
----Goblins no (with your ability to create tokens and cast small drops the weenie goblin rush wlll not kill you before your creatures turn into monsters---though goblins could stall and keep you defending if it gets a very good draw....but you also can give your tokens vigilance
----Jace no (don't think control or turbo mill survives here much unless its a very good draw)
----Aura Servants no as far as I recall...can win just as quick or usually with a god-draw
----Mindstorms--not sure but I don't think it has any....

Good Battle
Born of Flame --- no but at least has burn to slow your creatures down...so its a battle I'd say....


Has direct answers
Pack Instinct .....5 mana Indrik
Yeva has acidic slime and beast within
Grinning malace has Choas warp
ED has a couple answers (vindicate)
Life Deck has a couple (solemn offering plus removal at turn 4)
PK has oblivion ring
Sepulchral Strenth has ABUNDANT REMOVAL, two pernicious deeds and two maelstrom pulses...

On second though I suppose a lot of the decks have answers but if I was on steam or one of the platforms where you see gobbos 70% of the time and Liliana a lot I'd probably be running this deck a lot....A lot of these decks still do lack an answer to it and some require a couple of cards to be able to stall/prolongue the game....


Edited to add and mobius, that is kind of the point, I am running the sigil and selesnya combos as well....add that to the 2x beastmaster and compound the opponent's frustration....
I remember back when I played paper magic, my friend was playing Beastmaster Ascension and I was playing some U/X deck. When he got the 7 counters on the ascension and swung in, I bounced the Ascension, then blocked and killed most of his creatures. He wasn't very happy about that.

On the other hand, Overrun isn't as easy to see coming, Ascesion gives your opponent time to plan for it, Overrun, not so much. 



How do you plan for it if you are using one of the decks with no direct answers?
i think obediant dead could have a few answers such as mass destroy spells like the three cast and 4 cast that make all creatures -x/-x could stall out until get something out i guess but pretty much screwed lol xD
i think obediant dead could have a few answers such as mass destroy spells like the three cast and 4 cast that make all creatures -x/-x could stall out until get something out i guess but pretty much screwed lol xD



Infest, mutilate, massacre wurm, spitters, innocent blood, some lifegain, but getting a turn 3 infest is twice as unlikely as me getting a turn 3 beastmaster and it doesn't really matter, once the beastmaster is out and has counters it is there for the game....

Not saying Liliana can't beat this deck as it can but it has no real answer for this enchantments....
i think obediant dead could have a few answers such as mass destroy spells like the three cast and 4 cast that make all creatures -x/-x could stall out until get something out i guess but pretty much screwed lol xD



Infest, mutilate, massacre wurm, spitters, innocent blood, some lifegain, but getting a turn 3 infest is twice as unlikely as me getting a turn 3 beastmaster and it doesn't really matter, once the beastmaster is out and has counters it is there for the game....

Not saying Liliana can't beat this deck as it can but it has no real answer for this enchantments....



as long as you believe in the heart of the cards its irrelavant that obediant dead gona lose most of the time against CM B-) lol

I think if this was so OP a lot more people would be using it and winning consistently with it.  Reality is still that while VERY explosive and that is both it's biggest strength and weakness. It has almost no removal and it's defense against flyers or big creatures that can keep up or supass you doing dmg is minimal.  Usually your best defense is a strong offense and picking your spots. I don't see the big problem with it maybe people just don't know how to play against it.  There aren't enough token generators that you can't outpace or handle with spot removal to make Beastmaster OP.

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Let's settle down now Killa. What you fail to mention is, that in the screenshots, your opponent mulled to four. Not to mention he didn't play a single spell that entire game (more than likely due to that mull to 4, he only had enchantments in hand, no creatures to play them on).

Things get a lot different with Beastmaster Ascension, once, oh you know, your opponent starts interacting with you. Yeah, it'll snatch you a win every now and again, but can you honestly tell me it's more reliable than an Overrun (where even 2 lowly 1/1s represent 8 points of trample damage), a Sigil Blessing, or Selesnya Guildmage's +1/+1 ability?

It's honestly not that good and it's a bit of overkill. Ascension really never saw play when it was standard legal except in decks with a lot of elves, Eldrazi spawn generators (the creatures and Awakening Zone), coupled with that land that generates a 0/1 plant token when it comes into play.



As noted, I have played other games to the same extent----both good and bad (me on the receiving end of this). You don't have to do damage to get a counter, only swing and with 16-18 two drops you have nothing but creatures to call and pump out every turn. I guess the question is what decks can be reasonably expected to deal with enchantments?

NO ANSWER
---Liliana no but has some removal and stall (turn 4 obliterator so one card maybe?)
---Talrand only counters and holding mana for counters against a token heavy creature deck means you are dead anyways.... (disperse stalls a turn as you have no removal or way of stopping the abundant creatures)
----Goblins no (with your ability to create tokens and cast small drops the weenie goblin rush wlll not kill you before your creatures turn into monsters---though goblins could stall and keep you defending if it gets a very good draw....
----Jace no (don't think control or turbo mill survives here much unless its a very good draw)
----Aura Servants no as far as I recall...can win just as quick or usually with a god-draw
----Mindstorms--not sure but I don't think it has any....

Good Battle
Born of Flame --- no but at least has burn to slow your creatures down...so its a battle I'd say....


Has direct answers
Pack Instinct .....5 mana Indrik
Yeva has acidic slime and beast within
Grinning malace has Choas warp
ED has a couple answers (vindicate)
Life Deck has a couple (solemn offering plus removal at turn 4)
PK has oblivion ring
Sepulchral Strenth has ABUNDANT REMOVAL, two pernicious deeds and two maelstrom pulses...

On second though I suppose a lot of the decks have answers but if I was on steam or one of the platforms where you see gobbos 70% of the time and Liliana a lot I'd probably be running this deck a lot....A lot of these decks still do lack an answer to it and some require a couple of cards to be able to stall/prolongue the game....




I strongly disagree with your list of decks with no answers:

Talrand has Disperse and Jace has Into the Roil (and both have counterspells).  If the CM player has been only attacking with a couple of creatures and building up counters, then swinging in with 3 creatures, expecting to trigger the ascension can easily be answered by dispersing or roiling the ascension and all the counters go away.  If they are swinging in with 7 creatures then you are correct, it delays it for 1 turn.  But if they're swinging in with 7 creatures anyway, then the card isn't different from Overrun and it has little to do with the fact it's an enchantment.  Plus, you can't delay an overrun but you can with the Ascension.  And you can deliberately save a counterspell for use after you disperse it.  Both of those deck's answers are pretty good, actually, especially considering that both of those decks have good card draw so the chances of getting an answer are high.

Liliana has sweepers, as does Chandra.  She has no direct enchantment removal, but you can't get counters if you don't have creatures.  I think Liliana is fairly well set up against this.  The Obliterator is one answer, but so is Infest, Mutilate, and the tutor to get one of those 3 cards.  Liliana's other removal is decent to delay (as long as you target the token generators) to more expensive options like a Reiver Demon (or Plague Wind since you apparently run that...), and Liliana's creatures are good enough to keep the size of the horde small and make the CM player cautious.  I think Liliana probably fairs pretty well against this card overall.

Aura Servants - has much weaker overall options but Winds of Rath can't be overlooked here.  

Mindstorms can't remove the enchantment but can pretty easily and reliably blast the token generating creatures.  Not as efficiently as Chandra but pretty efficiently overall.  Also, mana leak.

Goblins - no answer.  But that's great.  Because goblins should die and this card helps them do that.





 
Goblins - no answer.  But that's great.  Because goblins should die and this card helps them do that.


hahaha wow XD lol somebody don't like that deck much.  
Disperse is a great answer and can do far more than stall for a turn.
Goblins - no answer.  But that's great.  Because goblins should die and this card helps them do that.


hahaha wow XD lol somebody don't like that deck much.  



I like the goblins deck just fine.  But I think everyone can agree that more dead goblins = everybody wins.
Jace and Talrand only stall for a turn. You into the roil/ disperse and now you have to keep 2/3 mana a turn open for the counter....meanwhile I play creatures and create tokens each turn. It's not good for you....

Liliana can beat that card with an early sweeper or an obliterator and shade can stall a few turns to hopefully get one or a tutor....
Goblins - no answer.  But that's great.  Because goblins should die and this card helps them do that.


hahaha wow XD lol somebody don't like that deck much.  



I like the goblins deck just fine.  But I think everyone can agree that more dead goblins = everybody wins.



yeah i dont like goblins ether why im so good at obediant dead cuz got fed up with goblin noobs on ranked 1v1s lol rose from 15000 something to top 1000 from killing off goblins lol only decks can take it out is the two blues least til SS came out
I think you're undervaluing the ability of roil/disperse here and overestimating the difficulty of a counterspell:

--whether you create tokens each turn isn't relevant to the disperse/counter strategy.  Bouncing a token generator doesn't prevent it from creating tokens as it's being bounced, and most of them are cheap enough that it may not even delay a single token upon recasting it.  So it may not be good for me that there are token generators on the board ... but that is something I'll have to deal with regardless of disperse/counters.  Countering a token generator doesn't prevent token generators as CM has tons of them.  Countering an ascension does probably prevent the ascension.

--Both Jace and Talrand keep mana open all the time, regardless of whether they have counters in hand, because both have lots of instants.  At least they should.  Keeping 2 mana open isn't that difficult.  It could interfere with a strategy to cast a Chancellor or a 9 mana RoR - but if the game is at that point, both DP and CW have probably won.
Jace and Talrand only stall for a turn. You into the roil/ disperse and now you have to keep 2/3 mana a turn open for the counter....meanwhile I play creatures and create tokens each turn. It's not good for you....

Liliana can beat that card with an early sweeper or an obliterator and shade can stall a few turns to hopefully get one or a tutor....



You can still only generate a maximum of 1 creature or token per turns 1 and 2 (only enchanting a sprout with fists of ironwood can give you a max of 3 1/1 tokens by turn 2), and 2 tokens or one creature max on turn 3. that's not a lot of firepower even without taking off turn 3 to play Beastmaster's Ascension.  Even if I'm OD, am I worried more about your 3 1/1 tokens? or are you more worried about my innocent bloods, fume spitters, nantuko shades, vampire nighthawk (lifelink flying you can only swords to plowshares) or infect by turn 3? You have no haste so hero of bladehold eats a murder most of the time and by the time you can swing for lethal on turn 6 Massacre Worm is there to return the favor.

I'm sorry I usually can see your points of view but OD has more answers for tokens before they can get pumped than CM has for OD.


And blue has problems with ALL swarm decks, not just CM, and Goblins and Peacekeepers are a lot faster than CM.
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I think you're undervaluing the ability of roil/disperse here and overestimating the difficulty of a counterspell:

--whether you create tokens each turn isn't relevant to the disperse/counter strategy.  Bouncing a token generator doesn't prevent it from creating tokens as it's being bounced, and most of them are cheap enough that it may not even delay a single token upon recasting it.  So it may not be good for me that there are token generators on the board ... but that is something I'll have to deal with regardless of disperse/counters.  Countering a token generator doesn't prevent token generators as CM has tons of them.  Countering an ascension does probably prevent the ascension.

--Both Jace and Talrand keep mana open all the time, regardless of whether they have counters in hand, because both have lots of instants.  At least they should.  Keeping 2 mana open isn't that difficult.  It could interfere with a strategy to cast a Chancellor or a 9 mana RoR - but if the game is at that point, both DP and CW have probably won.



How do you keep mana open in mono blue against aggro decks???? I have to fight to survive.....
Jace and Talrand only stall for a turn. You into the roil/ disperse and now you have to keep 2/3 mana a turn open for the counter....meanwhile I play creatures and create tokens each turn. It's not good for you....

Liliana can beat that card with an early sweeper or an obliterator and shade can stall a few turns to hopefully get one or a tutor....



You can still only generate a maximum of 1 creature or token per turns 1 and 2 (only enchanting a sprout with fists of ironwood can give you a max of 3 1/1 tokens by turn 2), and 2 tokens or one creature max on turn 3. that's not a lot of firepower even without taking off turn 3 to play Beastmaster's Ascension.  Even if I'm OD, am I worried more about your 3 1/1 tokens? or are you more worried about my innocent bloods, fume spitters, nantuko shades, vampire nighthawk (lifelink flying you can only swords to plowshares) or infect by turn 3? You have no haste so hero of bladehold eats a murder most of the time and by the time you can swing for lethal on turn 6 Massacre Worm is there to return the favor.

I'm sorry I usually can see your points of view but OD has more answers for tokens before they can get pumped than CM has for OD.


And blue has problems with ALL swarm decks, not just CM, and Goblins and Peacekeepers are a lot faster than CM.



Shin the comment you bolded was in response to mono-blue, not Liliana....Lil's sweepers are its only real answer...

I think I can have 5 creatures on turn 3 but is a  a lucky draw....standard fare would be swinging with 3 with a turn 4 beastmaster 1/3 games on average....you might put out an early spitter/shade..... 

Lil has hope because the token generation is slow at first and it has sweepers...

 SS fares much better vs CM than Liliana though.
I think you're undervaluing the ability of roil/disperse here and overestimating the difficulty of a counterspell:

--whether you create tokens each turn isn't relevant to the disperse/counter strategy.  Bouncing a token generator doesn't prevent it from creating tokens as it's being bounced, and most of them are cheap enough that it may not even delay a single token upon recasting it.  So it may not be good for me that there are token generators on the board ... but that is something I'll have to deal with regardless of disperse/counters.  Countering a token generator doesn't prevent token generators as CM has tons of them.  Countering an ascension does probably prevent the ascension.

--Both Jace and Talrand keep mana open all the time, regardless of whether they have counters in hand, because both have lots of instants.  At least they should.  Keeping 2 mana open isn't that difficult.  It could interfere with a strategy to cast a Chancellor or a 9 mana RoR - but if the game is at that point, both DP and CW have probably won.



How do you keep mana open in mono blue against aggro decks???? I have to fight to survive.....



CM is slower than either PK or GG, even if it is still a fast deck.  I don't think the amount of pressure it generates is equivalent.  CM will still be a fight, and unfavorable to blue ... but if we're talking about a board situation where: 'oh my Beastmaster Ascension is at 7 counters and they're attacking'...disperse/roil is your only option and keeping mana open after that is a must.  But if you've gotten to a board state where they have an ascension and 7 creatures, then you are highly likely to a fair amount of mana by then.  If you were mana-screwed and only have a couple of islands...well, you've probably lost by that time regardless.
I remember back when I played paper magic, my friend was playing Beastmaster Ascension and I was playing some U/X deck. When he got the 7 counters on the ascension and swung in, I bounced the Ascension, then blocked and killed most of his creatures. He wasn't very happy about that.
On the other hand, Overrun isn't as easy to see coming, Ascesion gives your opponent time to plan for it, Overrun, not so much.


How do you plan for it if you are using one of the decks with no direct answers?



Talrand can do what I just described, let you swing in, pump your guys with Asension, and then bounce your Ascension, block and kill all your guys.  

NO ANSWER
---Liliana no but has some removal and stall (turn 4 obliterator so one card maybe?)
---Talrand only counters and holding mana for counters against a token heavy creature deck means you are dead anyways.... (disperse stalls a turn as you have no removal or way of stopping the abundant creatures)
----Goblins no (with your ability to create tokens and cast small drops the weenie goblin rush wlll not kill you before your creatures turn into monsters---though goblins could stall and keep you defending if it gets a very good draw....but you also can give your tokens vigilance
----Jace no (don't think control or turbo mill survives here much unless its a very good draw)
----Aura Servants no as far as I recall...can win just as quick or usually with a god-draw
----Mindstorms--not sure but I don't think it has any....



Liliana doesn't need to answer Beastmaster Ascension, she can ignore it and count it as card advantage while answering the creatures and stopping you from ever getting it onine anyways.
Talrand and Jace can bounce it and screw up your attack, and they can also counter it. That's far from having "no answers."
Goblins don't need to answer it. Seriously, it's a red weenie aggro deck. Goblins should be winning before BA becomes relevant.
Aura Servants and Mindstorms - yeah, they don't have bounce or another direct answer to enchantments, but AS does have Winds of Wrath, while MS has pingers, counters, and burn to prevent BA from ever becomming active. 

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I am Blue/White

Oh yeah - Izzet does have Puca's Mischief as well.  I haven't really played with the card in more than a couple of games, but my sole use of it was to actually exchange a Steamcore Wierd for Beastmaster's Ascension.

 
I remember back when I played paper magic, my friend was playing Beastmaster Ascension and I was playing some U/X deck. When he got the 7 counters on the ascension and swung in, I bounced the Ascension, then blocked and killed most of his creatures. He wasn't very happy about that.
On the other hand, Overrun isn't as easy to see coming, Ascesion gives your opponent time to plan for it, Overrun, not so much.


How do you plan for it if you are using one of the decks with no direct answers?



Talrand can do what I just described, let you swing in, pump your guys with Asension, and then bounce your Ascension, block and kill all your guys.  

NO ANSWER
---Liliana no but has some removal and stall (turn 4 obliterator so one card maybe?)
---Talrand only counters and holding mana for counters against a token heavy creature deck means you are dead anyways.... (disperse stalls a turn as you have no removal or way of stopping the abundant creatures)
----Goblins no (with your ability to create tokens and cast small drops the weenie goblin rush wlll not kill you before your creatures turn into monsters---though goblins could stall and keep you defending if it gets a very good draw....but you also can give your tokens vigilance
----Jace no (don't think control or turbo mill survives here much unless its a very good draw)
----Aura Servants no as far as I recall...can win just as quick or usually with a god-draw
----Mindstorms--not sure but I don't think it has any....



Liliana doesn't need to answer Beastmaster Ascension, she can ignore it and count it as card advantage while answering the creatures and stopping you from ever getting it onine anyways.
Talrand and Jace can bounce it and screw up your attack, and they can also counter it. That's far from having "no answers."
Goblins don't need to answer it. Seriously, it's a red weenie aggro deck. Goblins should be winning before BA becomes relevant.
Aura Servants and Mindstorms - yeah, they don't have bounce or another direct answer to enchantments, but AS does have Winds of Wrath, while MS has pingers, counters, and burn to prevent BA from ever becomming active. 




Just to comment on Talrand, what is talrand going to kill my tokens with....Fog Banks and hatchlings? If I'm generating tokens, I'm pretty much swinging with them regardless ifs he has an invocation out or not... a turn 4 summoner would be bad for me though....
Just to comment on Talrand, what is talrand going to kill my tokens with....Fog Banks and hatchlings? If I'm generating tokens, I'm pretty much swinging with them regardless ifs he has an invocation out or not... a turn 4 summoner would be bad for me though....


Talrand's Invocation + Archaeomancer + Favorable Winds... You know, the core of the deck?

Also Ring of Evos Isle.
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