Trip: do you need a hand free?

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Trip


You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.


Making a Trip Attack

Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.


Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.

***

So its an unarmed melee attack.  Can I use my foot?  I mean, I've got a morningstar in one hand, and a shield in the other.  I've got Improved Trip.  I can't use the morningstar to trip, i know that.  But can I use my foot?  I think I can.  Just lookin for another opinion. 

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Trip


You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.


Making a Trip Attack

Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.


Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.

***

So its an unarmed melee attack.  Can I use my foot?  I mean, I've got a morningstar in one hand, and a shield in the other.  I've got Improved Trip.  I can't use the morningstar to trip, i know that.  But can I use my foot?  I think I can.  Just lookin for another opinion. 


yes the unarmed strike use any part of the body that can be used to attack like elbows, kicks, knees, punches, etc. and you cant use weapon for trip unless the weapon describe it.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Nothing there states that you have to have a hand free, so you could attempt a trip with your hands full.  You could fluff it as a strike with either your weapon or shield (that doesn't deal damage) to your opponent's knees or ankles (or softer parts) or something along those lines.
Nothing there states that you have to have a hand free, so you could attempt a trip with your hands full.  You could fluff it as a strike with either your weapon or shield (that doesn't deal damage) to your opponent's knees or ankles (or softer parts) or something along those lines.

the rules dont let you do a trip with a weapon or shields unless you have special feats or the weapon describe it.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
What game are you playing?  I copied something from 3.75 a while back that I have used for 3.5 on the one or two occassions that it ever came up:

Mind you, I might get banned from the room for pasting this, because I do not recall where I got it or if it's OGC/OGL.


This is a Pathfinder rule, so use it with common sense.




If you want to make a trip combat maneuver, do you have to use a weapon with the trip special feature?



No. Note that when making a trip combat maneuver, you don't need to use a weapon at all--for example, you can trip when you're unarmed, even though unarmed strike isn't listed as a trip weapon.



There are advantages to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver.


One, if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.



Two, you can apply the weapon's enhancement bonus, weapon-specific attack bonuses such as Weapon Focus, and so on to your trip combat maneuver roll.



For example, you'd add the enhancement bonus from a +5 whip to your trip combat maneuver roll because a whip is a trip weapon. You wouldn't add the enhancement bonus from a +5 longsword to your trip combat maneuver roll because a longsword is not a trip weapon. In effect, there's no difference between making an unarmed trip attempt and a trip attempt with a +5 longsword because the sword doesn't help you make the trip attempt.


 
You can trip with stuff in your hands. A melee touch attack doesn't necicarily require a free hand. If they required a free hand the reach weapons designed for tripping wouldn't work. 

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You can trip with stuff in your hands. A melee touch attack doesn't necicarily require a free hand. If they required a free hand the reach weapons designed for tripping wouldn't work. 

the rules say that you need make a melee unarmed touch attack, not only a touch attack.


TRIP

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.


Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.


If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.


Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.


Being Tripped (Prone): A tripped character is prone. Standing up is a move action.


Tripping a Mounted Opponent: You may make a trip attack against a mounted opponent. The defender may make a Ride check in place of his Dexterity or Strength check. If you succeed, you pull the rider from his mount.


Tripping with a Weapon: Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks (the weapon need to say it in her description like the whip). In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Actually, yeah, I would be tempted to say you do need a hand free.

The attack is an unarmed attack (unless you use a tripping weapon) and unless you're a monk, you can't make that with an elbow, knee, forehead (forehead trip, yay!), etc... at least not by the rules. That's a special feature of the monk's IUS ability.

Also, how are you tripping someone with your hands full of stuff you're not tripping with? I guess you could foot-sweep, but it's not like the rules are 100% realistic anyway. At least they're trying, though. 
Actually, yeah, I would be tempted to say you do need a hand free.

The attack is an unarmed attack (unless you use a tripping weapon) and unless you're a monk, you can't make that with an elbow, knee, forehead (forehead trip, yay!), etc... at least not by the rules. That's a special feature of the monk's IUS ability.

Also, how are you tripping someone with your hands full of stuff you're not tripping with? I guess you could foot-sweep, but it's not like the rules are 100% realistic anyway. At least they're trying, though. 

IMPROVED UNARMED STRIKE [GENERAL]

Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.


In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option.


Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.


Special: A monk automatically gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level. She need not select it.


A fighter may select Improved Unarmed Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


the rules say that you can make unarmed strike with any part of your body.


from D&D archive 3.5


Unarmed Attack/Unarmed Strike: These two terms are used interchangeably to describe an attack with an appendage that is not a natural weapon, such as a human's fist. An unarmed attack usually deals nonlethal damage and provokes an attack of opportunity from the creature being attacked.


Unarmed Attack Basics


The unarmed attack entry in Chapter 8 of the Player's Handbook contains most of the rules for fighting without weaponry. Here's an overview, along with a few additions and comments:



  • You usually make an unarmed attack with a free hand.


As far as the rules are concerned, you can use just about any part of your body in an unarmed attack: a head butt, kick, elbow, knee, or forearm. This means you don't need a free hand to make an unarmed attack.


Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Belly bump?  Completely overbearing your opponent?

Conversely, how would you expect a Small humanoid (Gnome, Halfling, etc) to trip anything larger than itself (since Medium creatures could stand upwards of 7 feet tall)?

You could ask your DM if you could refluff the trip attempt to include whatever is in your hands (as long as the basics aren't affected, most DMs are willing to work with their players)...that could mean a bash to the opponent's knees with the shield, a fist to the gut, what have you.  
As long as it has the same mechanical effect and isn't completely implausible, you can flavour it pretty much as you like.

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Actually, yeah, I would be tempted to say you do need a hand free.

The attack is an unarmed attack (unless you use a tripping weapon) and unless you're a monk, you can't make that with an elbow, knee, forehead (forehead trip, yay!), etc... at least not by the rules. That's a special feature of the monk's IUS ability.

.



How would you say that tripping with a Guisarme works?

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"

You put the pointy end in the other guy.  Then yank.
The guisarme actually has a slight hook at the end of the blade. Use it to catch your opponent's ankle & pull.
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
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When she meets CJ's mom?
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The guisarme actually has a slight hook at the end of the blade. Use it to catch your opponent's ankle & pull.


Then why would you need a hand free?

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"

You don't because it's a tripping weapon, like the spiked chain. The debate is on whether you need a hand free to trip with (for example) a longsword.
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
No it isnt. 

The question was "Do I need a free hand to trip?" and the answer is "No". If you needed a free hand to trip it would say "You need a free hand to trip". It does not say that, so you do not need one. 

I could see it as reasonable for someone to assume you might need a free hand, but if you think about it, thats not the case. The rules don't support it, and logic doesn't really support it. (I hit him in the back of the knee with my sword/kick him in the chest for two examples)

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"

I was under the impression that the question was about needing a hand free to trip without a trip weapon - I'd say it's pretty obvious that if a weapon can be used for tripping, you can trip with just the weapon. Otherwise it would be impossible to trip with said guisarme.

However, for non-trip weapons, I think you do (unless you're a Monk, of course, who could trip with a generic unarmed strike). Yes, it's feasible that you could trip with a foot, say, but the rules already suggest that's Monk-only (since you can't make an unarmed strike with a kick).

Is it feasible that you could trip with a staff or other polearm? Definately, but then maybe they should be trip weapons. Is it feasible that you could trip with a dagger or sword? Not really IMO; you could hit them in the knee but that's more a hamstring-type manoeuvre which the rules don't really cover. Maybe the rules are a bit off here, but they're not completely illogical. Meanwhile, it seems clear to me that since it requires an unarmed touch attack, you need to make an unarmed strike to trip (of course, you could take a hand off a two-handed weapon and put it back as a free action, you just coulnd't do it with, say, a sword and shield). 
Looking at the rules it would seem you could Trip using any part of your body even if you're hands are otherwise occupied.

Now personally, while I'd allow it I'm also going to penalize your attempt in some fashion unless you have some advanced skills at unarmed fighting. 
It seems like you are using a lot of real world logic to make these rules decisions Fred. I can totally see your arguement, but DND doesn't follow real world logic, and using the DND rules you do not need a hand. 

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"

Looking at the rules, you need to make an unarmed melee touch attack. I'm not sure it's ever explicitly stated that you can't make an unarmed strike without a hand, but the description of the Monk's IUS feature very much suggests that you can't (since why mention that monks can, otherwise?), though admittedly that's an implication not a fact. It might be covered in one of the Rules of the Game articles.

Simply put, if you're OK with people "dual-wielding" their glaives and their feet, fine, but if you don't let people use unarmed strikes without their hands, then you shouldn't really let them trip without their hands (unless they're using a trip weapon, or are a monk, or whatever). DM call in this case.

(I was only making a (real-life) logical argument because you said "logic doesn't support it", and I'd say it does (to the extent that logic is followed in D&D rules at all, anyway))
Riddle me this,if I trip an treant with my foot,does a tree-man make a sound in the forest as it falls?

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I guess another question is: I am a bard.  I want to kick someone.  Is that resolved as an unarmed attack?  And I suppose if so, then I can perform a trip with my foot.  

If a kick isn't an unarmed attack, what is it? 

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"Having absolutely no ranks in any knowledges, my beloved Ric Flair based monk/rogue took off running immediately and attempted suicide by jumping off the bridge we were fighting on." - spitewrathhatred

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In theory, yes, but the implication of the rules seems to be that you can't, because, well, you can't kick people. You don't know how. It's kinda stupid like that I guess, so one might easily say to hell with it, yes you can, and certainly I would say that if you can, you can make a trip attack like that. It kind of boils down to a DM ruling though, I think.
read the rules, you only need use a unarmed strike or a weapon with the trip ability, now a unarmed strike can be any part of the body that can be used to attack (DM discretion) therefore you dont need a free hand, as Krusk say is the World of D&D and her rules are described in the books of the games.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
You don't need a hand free, or even need to have hands at all to trip.  A gelatinous cube, a strige, and a quadruple amputee could make trip attacks within the size limitations, they just wouldn't usually be very good at it.

 The point of the melee touch attack in the power is to set the range to be melee reach, and to determine which AC you have to hit in order to even make the trip attempt.

 If you have a weapon that allows tripping with the weapon the you get the benefits of:
A) Applying the enhancement bonus of your weapon to the attack roll.
B) Applying any bonus the weapon grants to the trip attempt
C) If you are counter tripped, you can drop the weapon instead of going prone.


I guess another question is: I am a bard.  I want to kick someone.  Is that resolved as an unarmed attack?  And I suppose if so, then I can perform a trip with my foot.  

If a kick isn't an unarmed attack, what is it?

In theory, yes, but the implication of the rules seems to be that you can't, because, well, you can't kick people. You don't know how. It's kinda stupid like that I guess, so one might easily say to hell with it, yes you can, and certainly I would say that if you can, you can make a trip attack like that. It kind of boils down to a DM ruling though, I think.


A kick would be an unarmed attack dealing non-lethal damage only which would provoke an attack of opportunity from your target (and only your target) if they are armed, unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike.  You can deal lethal damage without improved unarmed strike if you take a -4 on the attack roll. 
  This is described under Action in Combat -> Standard Actions -> Attack -> Unarmed Attacks in the SRD.  This section also describes an unarmed strike as follows:

Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon....



Nothing in the rules describes an unarmed strike as a punch - it is simply any melee attack not using a weapon.
Thank you Zan.  Your reply is much more concise and in 3.5 terms than the hodgepodge 3.75 rule I posted earlier in the thread, and I have copy/pasted your post as a better and "official" ruling for our game for when/if it ever comes up again.

Neue 
you only need use a unarmed strike or a weapon with the trip ability, now a unarmed strike can be any part of the body that can be used to attack (DM discretion)


This is pretty much exactly what I said, isn't it?

Zan - note that that line doesn't actually say that just anybody can use kicks and headbutts. It's perfectly reasonable to say they could, but it's slightly into the realm of DM interpretation, especially since IIRC there is a Rules of the Game article which suggests that if you wanted to use, say, claws and unarmed strikes, you'd have to give up a claw attack since your arm is your "primary limb" (it uses this "primary limb" thing which I take to mean that, sure, a creature without arms could make a trip using a different body part).

I would just say, as usual, ask your DM.