Post-RTR Red Deck Wins

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Just something I was thinking about. Nothing fancy, just a fast aggro monored deck. Done a few test runs and I enjoy it.

Not too big on the hellriders, though.

Creatures: 20




Instant: 12
[deck] 4 Searing Spear
4 Brimstone Volley
2 Street Spasm
2 Thunderous Wrath[/deck]


Sorcery: 8
[deck] 4 Pillar of Flame
4 Wild Guess[/deck]


Land: 20
[deck] 18 Mountain
2 Hellion Crucible [/deck]
I believe it is a mistake to not run B/R for Falkenrath Aristocrat, simply for flying/haste/indestructable BS, which has won me many games. Even better if you can get Somberwald Vigilante in on the action to feed to Aristocraft once the former has outlived his use. I don't think Chainwalker's very good, and you should maybe consider Reckless Waif, potentially.

With Koth gone, there is absolutely zero incentive to have a large quantity of mountains.

If your reasons for wanting to stay mono-red are financial in origin, I wholly sympathise.
I believe it is a mistake to not run B/R for Falkenrath Aristocrat, simply for flying/haste/indestructable BS, which has won me many games. Even better if you can get Somberwald Vigilante in on the action to feed to Aristocraft once the former has outlived his use. I don't think Chainwalker's very good, and you should maybe consider Reckless Waif, potentially.

With Koth gone, there is absolutely zero incentive to have a large quantity of mountains.

If your reasons for wanting to stay mono-red are financial in origin, I wholly sympathise.


I don't feel FA is worth quintupling the decks cost.
It amuses me that she quintupled in price once Zombies became a thing.

I think Waif is still good. Flames of the Firebrand could be helpful here.
It amuses me that she quintupled in price once Zombies became a thing.

I think Waif is still good. Flames of the Firebrand could be helpful here.



It's not just her but the fact I'd need to grab shocklands and dragonskull mountains that would atleast triple the deck. She's good but if I was going to commit THAT much then I might as well go full on B/R.

I'll test out wreckless waif.
+4 Ash Zealot +4 Guttersnipe +4 Pillar.  hard for me to imagine where the overload on mortars will be relevant; if 4 damage is important, then it may still be worthwhile.  but in general you'd like to focus on stuff that can go to the dome.
I agree with Etcetra here. While you could probably skip Ash Zealot due to Budget Constraints, Pillar and Guttersnipe are too important to what your deck wants to do to not be used. I also worry that you don't have any 5 to the Face spells here (Thunderous Wrath, Brimestone Volley, so on). The reach afforded by these spells can just win races.
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I agree with Etcetra here. While you could probably skip Ash Zealot due to Budget Constraints, Pillar and Guttersnipe are too important to what your deck wants to do to not be used. I also worry that you don't have any 5 to the Face spells here (Thunderous Wrath, Brimestone Volley, so on). The reach afforded by these spells can just win races.


Ash zealot really isn't out of budget, especially if I cut mizzium mortars (if that's a good plan).
I agree with Etcetra here. While you could probably skip Ash Zealot due to Budget Constraints, Pillar and Guttersnipe are too important to what your deck wants to do to not be used. I also worry that you don't have any 5 to the Face spells here (Thunderous Wrath, Brimestone Volley, so on). The reach afforded by these spells can just win races.

playset of Ash Zealot = $8.  krazy.  but yeah, volley is an auto-inc to me.

Changes?: -2 hellrider, -2 Bloodfray Giant, -4 Rakdos Shredder (Don't know if this or The chainwalker), , -4 Electrickery, -2 Fervor, -4 Mizzium Mortars,
+4 Ash Zealot, +4 Guttersnipe, +4 Brimstone Volley, +2 Thunderous wrath, +4 Pillar of Flame
Would a Reverberate trigger Gutternsipe twice? Like, you cast Pillar, Reverberate, choose Pillar, netting three activations over two spells?

I'm thinking not, since you could technically infinite combo Gutternsipe by having Reverberate target itself. If only!

EDIT: Yeah, just looked it up--copy just puts a second spell on the stack, it doesn't "cast" it. I guess you could exile them for Nivmagus Elemental counters? Is this my post-lunch-food-coma posting for me?

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

Would a Reverberate trigger Gutternsipe twice? Like, you cast Pillar, Reverberate, choose Pillar, netting three activations over two spells?

I'm thinking not, since you could technically infinite combo Gutternsipe by having Reverberate target itself. If only!

EDIT: Yeah, just looked it up--copy just puts a second spell on the stack, it doesn't "cast" it. I guess you could exile them for Nivmagus Elemental counters? Is this my post-lunch-food-coma posting for me?


Even at that, spells cannot target themselves.
/dreams

oh well. 

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

Would a Reverberate trigger Gutternsipe twice? Like, you cast Pillar, Reverberate, choose Pillar, netting three activations over two spells?

I'm thinking not, since you could technically infinite combo Gutternsipe by having Reverberate target itself. If only!

EDIT: Yeah, just looked it up--copy just puts a second spell on the stack, it doesn't "cast" it. I guess you could exile them for Nivmagus Elemental counters? Is this my post-lunch-food-coma posting for me?


Even at that, spells cannot target themselves.

2 copies of reverberate?  what happens when i reverberate a flashback'd increasing vengeance?

Would a Reverberate trigger Gutternsipe twice? Like, you cast Pillar, Reverberate, choose Pillar, netting three activations over two spells?

I'm thinking not, since you could technically infinite combo Gutternsipe by having Reverberate target itself. If only!

EDIT: Yeah, just looked it up--copy just puts a second spell on the stack, it doesn't "cast" it. I guess you could exile them for Nivmagus Elemental counters? Is this my post-lunch-food-coma posting for me?


Even at that, spells cannot target themselves.

2 copies of reverberate?  + 'snipe?



It was already clarified that reverberate copies don't count as being cast.
what happens when i reverberate a flashback'd increasing vengeance?


You've cast an instant/sorcery (trigger the Snipe!) that you are now copying twice by casting the Increasing Vengeance, (trigger the Snipe!), and you've cast the Reverberate (trigger the Snipe!).  So there are 7 spells on the stack, but only 3 were actually cast.    
I think Thunderbolt is more of a sideboard card (Smelt would be nice there too.) I know Sulfur Falls might be a bit hard on your budget (and Izzet Keyrune might be a little awkward), but Desperate Ravings is super relavent here (and you don't absolutely need Steam Vents to make it work). Unfortunately your deck is weaksauce to Zombies without real drawpower :\
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I think Thunderbolt is more of a sideboard card (Smelt would be nice there too.) I know Sulfur Falls might be a bit hard on your budget (and Izzet Keyrune might be a little awkward), but Desperate Ravings is super relavent here (and you don't absolutely need Steam Vents to make it work). Unfortunately your deck is weaksauce to Zombies without real drawpower :\


Unfortunately sulfur falls is a 10-15 dollar card now. The keyrunes not something I'd use because the deck is way too fast for something that doesn't come until turn 3. I'd assume the guild gates are largely frowned on as well by most?

As for being weak to zombies...Well, no deck is going to be strong to every other deck around.

I understand it would be better with the flashback but is desperate ravings not worth it even without using it's flashback? What about faithless looting?
I think Thunderbolt is more of a sideboard card (Smelt would be nice there too.) I know Sulfur Falls might be a bit hard on your budget (and Izzet Keyrune might be a little awkward), but Desperate Ravings is super relavent here (and you don't absolutely need Steam Vents to make it work). Unfortunately your deck is weaksauce to Zombies without real drawpower :\


Unfortunately sulfur falls is a 10-15 dollar card now. The keyrunes not something I'd use because the deck is way too fast for something that doesn't come until turn 3. I'd assume the guild gates are largely frowned on as well by most?

As for being weak to zombies...Well, no deck is going to be strong to every other deck around.

I understand it would be better with the flashback but is desperate ravings not worth it even without using it's flashback? What about faithless looting?



The Guild Gates are fine, but context dependent. Considering that you want to use all of your mana during the first 3 turns, I would say that they're a little too tough on your curve. Looting is a fine card aswell (it also had great power with Guttersnipe).

I'd say to jam Bonfire of the Damned, but I'm going to guess that you haven't acquired your copy(s) yet, so that would bust your budget pretty horrifically. So Street Spasm is the way to go.

Geistflame is a somewhat awkward, but viable choice in matchups where Guttersnipe does heavy lifting. Electrickery is a Whipflare against some opponents. Zealous Conscripts is hard to get the mana for, but can often times break a control or zombies matchup in your favor. Nivmagus Elemental is also a bit left-of-field, but snowballs very easily.
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I think Thunderbolt is more of a sideboard card (Smelt would be nice there too.) I know Sulfur Falls might be a bit hard on your budget (and Izzet Keyrune might be a little awkward), but Desperate Ravings is super relavent here (and you don't absolutely need Steam Vents to make it work). Unfortunately your deck is weaksauce to Zombies without real drawpower :\


Unfortunately sulfur falls is a 10-15 dollar card now. The keyrunes not something I'd use because the deck is way too fast for something that doesn't come until turn 3. I'd assume the guild gates are largely frowned on as well by most?

As for being weak to zombies...Well, no deck is going to be strong to every other deck around.

I understand it would be better with the flashback but is desperate ravings not worth it even without using it's flashback? What about faithless looting?



The Guild Gates are fine, but context dependent. Considering that you want to use all of your mana during the first 3 turns, I would say that they're a little too tough on your curve. Looting is a fine card aswell (it also had great power with Guttersnipe).

I'd say to jam Bonfire of the Damned, but I'm going to guess that you haven't acquired your copy(s) yet, so that would bust your budget pretty horrifically. So Street Spasm is the way to go.

Geistflame is a somewhat awkward, but viable choice in matchups where Guttersnipe does heavy lifting. Electrickery is a Whipflare against some opponents. Zealous Conscripts is hard to get the mana for, but can often times break a control or zombies matchup in your favor. Nivmagus Elemental is also a bit left-of-field, but snowballs very easily.




Yeah I don't have bonfires and if I did I'd be more tempted to just sell it since it alone could fund the entire deck and then some.

Electrickery I had in but removed as I felt it was more for the sideboard card. I'd keep it in the sideboard for matches against weenie decks.

Since I can't include steam vents/sulfur falls for the time being, would you suggest faithless looting? Alternatively I can use the gates and ravings. Or wild guess. Actually, thinking about it, would the flashback of ravings/looting even be a good idea? Assuming I'm not misreading, Ash zealot will hurt it's owner as well if they flashback, won't it? I personally don't like the random discard of ravings. Lootings two card discard can be an issue as well even though you get to choose.

I don't know about conscripts. a 5 cost is just a bit high considering how fast this deck WANTS to move.
I personally don't like the elemental but I might just not be seeing it's potential.
Mizzium Mortars over Street Spasm.  You lose Instant speed, but Spasm would take for 4 damage to one creature without flying, or to do 4 damage to each creature your opponent controls without flying, where Mortars does 4 damage to any creature for or hit all of their creatures for a more realistic .  One comes in the Izzet precon deck, so they won't go higher than $3 or $4 after the sets been out for a few weeks.

Dangerous Wager and Wild Guess are solid budget draw for a burn deck.    
You don't want draw in a burn deck unless it creates CA cheaply. Red diesnt get that, so its a waste of mana to cast them, especially since they're all pretty awful.
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler 
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Ash Zealot
4 Thundermaw Hellkite


4 Pillar of Flame
2 Electrickery 
3 Searing Spear
3  
3 Flames of the Firebrand


21 Mountain
Hellion Crucible
2 Cathedral of War       


My take; finish em with Thundermaw. This deck is meant to bring Demigod back. 
Mizzium Mortars over Street Spasm.  You lose Instant speed, but Spasm would take for 4 damage to one creature without flying, or to do 4 damage to each creature your opponent controls without flying, where Mortars does 4 damage to any creature for or hit all of their creatures for a more realistic .  One comes in the Izzet precon deck, so they won't go higher than $3 or $4 after the sets been out for a few weeks.

Dangerous Wager and Wild Guess are solid budget draw for a burn deck.    



I'd probably go for wild guess over the two. How many mortars would you suggest? I have two street spasms. So 2? Or more?

4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler 
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Ash Zealot
4 Thundermaw Hellkite


4 Pillar of Flame
2 Electrickery 
3 Searing Spear
3  
3 Flames of the Firebrand


21 Mountain
Hellion Crucible
2 Cathedral of War       


My take; finish em with Thundermaw. This deck is meant to bring Demigod back. 




Hellkite is far to expensive for me and not really all the great a fit in my opinion. I really wouldn't want to bother with anything over 3 mana aside from mass removal spells. I'm not a huge fan of flames of the firebrand. Electrickery is really a sideboard card for me. It's great against some decks but largely worthless against others. and 25 land would be waaaaay too much for a deck with such a small mana curve. I tend to do just fine in testing with 20 (18 mountain, 2 crucible).
Maybe try out the configuration of the first deck in this link, by Max Sjöblom:

www.gatheringmagic.com/maxsjoblom-092012...
Maybe try out the configuration of the first deck in this link, by Max Sjöblom:

www.gatheringmagic.com/maxsjoblom-092012...


Might keep the annihilating fires sided for zombie players. I don't really see much of a point in mogg flunkies. Just seems like an unleashed Gore-house chainwalker is less restricted and accomplishes the same thing. Waif I'm not a fan of either as she requires inaction (In a deck that is looking to be doing something every single turn).
How about Rakdos Shred-Freak as the second two-drop? Hits for 2+2+2 in three turns vs 0+3+3 for a Gore-House Chainwalker or Mogg Flunkies.

Not so sure the Waif is bad. You're looking to empty your hand quickly anyway. Sure, it sits around as a 1/1 for a while.

A few cards I'd be interested in hearing opinions on:

Dynacharge - Cheap two damage for with a decent chance of four for . Lets you attack into blockers.
Furor of the Bitten - Cheap damage for , possible card disadvantage
Stonewright - Can use your mana for something when your hand is empty

Not so sure the Waif is bad.



The issue is it sits around as a 1/1 for 5+ turns in testing. Simply better 1 drops that could be used in such a fast deck.

RDW's looks solid, but restricting to one colour maybe not be the best thing, I have been looking at making a Grixis aggro build with cards like Teleportal, its just something to think about, maybe a high overload cost of 5, but +1/+0 and unblockable on all your creatures? that has to be a game ender if your aggro plan is working. R with U splash? just throwing it out there.

RDW's looks solid, but restricting to one colour maybe not be the best thing, I have been looking at making a Grixis aggro build with cards like Teleportal, its just something to think about, maybe a high overload cost of 5, but +1/+0 and unblockable on all your creatures? that has to be a game ender if your aggro plan is working. R with U splash? just throwing it out there.




Can't afford steamvents/sulfur falls so I'd have to use Izzet guildgates or keyrunes which I'm not sure is the best idea.
Some decks that might interest you:

www.gatheringmagic.com/darwinkastle-1001...
I've struggled to make RDW anything other than a bad Zombies in this format.

You lose Shrine, so Control becomes much harder. It's much easier for them to sweep you out and you just have nothing to recover with. I tried Tibalt as a replacemebt, but he sucked.

Further, pretty much half the format, maybe more, runs 4 Thragtusk. To my knowledge, RDW has literally nothing to beat the value off that guy.

The other half of the format is Zombies, who have creatures just as big and fast as yours, but with more upsides, less fragile, and more resilient.

Essentially the only thing RDW has is Ash Zealot, which is relevant to two cards only getting played right now - Gravecrawler and Snapcaster.

I'm personally prepared to write off RDW as truly unplayable for the first time in years. If you're not, you need to find something fundamental that lets it make a place in the format or you're looking at a lot of 0-4s or 1-3s.
I wouldn't write off RDW as truly unplayable, Budget RDW on the other hand...  The biggest problem i've been seeing lately is turn 4 Desecration Demons.  Very hard for mono-Red to remove without at least 2 cards.  R/B or R/b has a much better chance of being competitive.

I'd probably go for wild guess over the two. How many mortars would you suggest? I have two street spasms. So 2? Or more?


My deck is quite different from yours.  I'm running two since it's versatile but it can't hit the opponent's face, but Guttersnipe can give every burn spell more value.  You're running 20 creatures with a toughness of two or less, so you desperately need those one-sided board wipes late game.  Maybe 3 or 4 would work for you since you don't have Bonfires.  Also 4 Wild Guess is too many, especially with your low mana curve.  It's more useful if you were running more miracles that would routinely end up in your opening hand or other high mana cards that can't help you early on and you're digging for lands.  Mid/late game when a fast Red deck is top decking, Dangerous Wager is the better card.      
Have you considered Traitorous Instinct or Traitorous Blood? Seems good with all the Thragtusks and Desecration Demons running around.

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I have to agree with Indigo. RDW just can't compete in a format where everyone is splashing green for thragtusk, zombies can block all day with lotleth, and the burn spells are terrible outside of brimstone and pillar. However, if you're going to try, you have to go RB for Falkenrath and Deathrite Shaman. Deathrite Shaman is the much needed reach the deck needs.
2:25 PM sneakattackkid: my basics are worth more... 5:21 PM Nighthavk_: I was splitting more 8-4s than a hooker splits her legs. 11:42 PM Nighthavk_: because honestly, your opponent may be caw, but he'll probably be a drooling idiot who just found out porn exists.
There might be something to a red deck that goes big, ignoring the bad one drops and going for playsets of guys like Thundermaw or Hypersonic, with mana stones and lots of burn.
Some decks that might interest you:

www.gatheringmagic.com/darwinkastle-1001...

I've been trying out the Turbored version that was posted, and I've found that to work out just fine. Having late game evasion that's harder to remove really makes the transition into mid-game go well.

I'm currently playing that list -3 Mountains, +1 Thundermaw, +2 Hellion Crucibles.  I've not tested up against GB Zombie yet, but I fear almost no mid-range. I've been testing against published lists all week, and while there are decks that beat that one, it's pretty reliable.
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