short rest vs "once per encounter"

The short rest that is required to get back an encounter power - is that a mechanism of game balance? Or a mechanism of world integration?

To put it another way:
Do character need to take a short rest to get their encounter powers back simply to justify the powers being 1/encounter? Or is it a balance issue... the power shouldn't be usable more often than the character is capable of spending 10 minutes resting.
I don't quite understand the question.

But I suspect that the answer is a bit of both - with balance being the ultimate reason.

The powers are balanced to be used once per encounter.
Calling a power an abstract 'encounter power' is dissociated and bothers some people.
To avoid that - they created a mechanism (the short rest) and ruled that such powers required this time spent resting for the power to recover.
'Encounter' Powers with long term durations were then set to 10 minute durations to ensure that by the time the power refreshed, their duration had expried (this last was also true for 4E which is why many powers exprire 'at the end of the encounter or after five mnutes'.

Carl
Both? But "you must rest at least 5 minutes to recover this ability" is a more inworld explanation, and uses more inworld terminology, than "once per encounter". I think it exists to balance the game, but the wordage exists to keep 4E haters from hating.

But that's coming from a 4E liker. 

Poe's Law is alive and well.

The sillyness of the short rest bothers me considerably more than the 'gamest' concept of a once per encounter power.  The idea that the party camps out for 10 minutes after every fight (no matter where they are at the time, or what's going on) bothers deeply.

(edit: rewording a bit... I had that parenthetical awkwardly placed)

I guess the question is: does once per 10 minute rest mean "encounter power"? 

Which of the following is most accurate?

1) Characters are supposed to take a 10 minute nap after every fight

2) Characters get these powers back the next time they have a chance to rest

3) something else entirely
The sillyness of the short rest bothers me considerably more than the 'gamest' concept of a once per encounter power.  The idea that the party camps out for 10 minutes after every fight (no matter where they are at the time, or what's going on) bothers deeply.

(edit: rewording a bit... I had that parenthetical awkwardly placed)

I guess the question is: does once per 10 minute rest mean "encounter power"? 

Which of the following is most accurate?

1) Characters are supposed to take a 10 minute nap after every fight

2) Characters get these powers back the next time they have a chance to rest

3) something else entirely



They don't need a nap, just not to exert themselves to much. They need a breather. It doesn't mean they don't move just keep walking or take a heal break and then move on, or stop if you want. 

I think it's perfectly justifiable. I'm willing to believe I might be able to jump a small chasm, but not that I can do it over an over again without taking a quick rest first.

The sillyness of the short rest bothers me considerably more than the 'gamest' concept of a once per encounter power.  The idea that the party camps out for 10 minutes after every fight (no matter where they are at the time, or what's going on) bothers deeply.

(edit: rewording a bit... I had that parenthetical awkwardly placed)

I guess the question is: does once per 10 minute rest mean "encounter power"? 

Which of the following is most accurate?

1) Characters are supposed to take a 10 minute nap after every fight

2) Characters get these powers back the next time they have a chance to rest

3) something else entirely




The idea of the party 'camping out' for 10 minutes bothers me a bit as well.  But only because it isn't always an option.  I made it clear to my party that their ability to rest was dependent upon the logic of  the sitution.

As an example - I pointed out that if they attack an Orc lair and kill the front guards - they are not going to be left alone to rest for 10 minutes.  They would need to either find somewhere they can defend, with perhaps some players resting while other's stood guard or they might find some way to hide out where the orcs can't find them (rope trick springs to mind).  But they can't just sit down in the entrance and take a break.

But as long as you apply some realism to when and where they will be able to take a 10 minute break - I don't have any problem with it.

Carl
The short rest that is required to get back an encounter power - is that a mechanism of game balance? Or a mechanism of world integration?

To put it another way:
Do character need to take a short rest to get their encounter powers back simply to justify the powers being 1/encounter? Or is it a balance issue... the power shouldn't be usable more often than the character is capable of spending 10 minutes resting.



The answer is: To get back an “encounter” spell, the hero needs to take a “short rest”.

Notice, the “encounter” ends *when* the hero takes a short rest.

If the hero cant rest, then all the action is still part of the same encounter.  
They could probably go back to 4e's five minutes without it being much of an issue. I don't actually think that it's unreasonable for, absent significant time pressure, heroes to take a few minutes to catch their breath after a fight; it's not a nap; it's that fighting for your life is stressful and tiring, and it takes a few minutes to catch your breath, check your stuff, grab a drink, patch yourself (or your buddy) up, and regain your composure.

As a 4e veteran, at least in my games the assumption is that whatever happens between fights is sufficiently restful that encounter powers come back and anything else that's done during a short rest can be done there, except in cases where that's explicitly not the case (in which case the "encounter" is just a series of smaller encounters.) In some circumstances there might be real pressure against taking short rests, but generally it's not an issue. (For gamist reasons, I often have the effect of a short rest occur between fights even if narratively one would not be occurring - for example, if the PCs are in freefall it's hard to justify them really resting between encounters, but if I make the players go through the hassle of learning a bunch of fighting-in-freefall rules, I'm sure as heck not going to only run one encounter with them.)
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The answer is: To get back an “encounter” spell, the hero needs to take a “short rest”.

Notice, the “encounter” ends *when* the hero takes a short rest.

If the hero cant rest, then all the action is still part of the same encounter.  



Hmm, I suppose how I feel about that will depend on how heavy characters end-up being on encounter resources.  It's the game balance effects of encounter resources that really bother me, not just the narrative impact.

If encounter powers are a light enough element in the players arsenal that its simply a matter of "warlocks are very effective in skirmishes, good in large battles, and a little weak in prolonged fights/time sensitive scenarios" then that's fine.

I'm trying not to derail my own thread into "this is why I hate 4e".  Lets just say the reason I made the thread was to confirm that these are, by design intent and in-game function, 4e style encounter powers.

@lesp
Yeah, that's pretty much what my group did as well.  In fact, in order to pull off a "boss battle" one of our DMs actually had us gain the effects of a short rest at the midway point of the battle.  (I think I may have used that once in a somewhat tongue and cheek "epic campaign"... or maybe it was a mid battle 'free long rest')
Daily powers are back with a long rest, encounter powers with a short rest.
4th edition streamlined a lot of D&D elements, 5th edition seems to go farther in this direction (advantage, resistance), like all editions before.

The problem with the newest editions is to integrate sacred cows from previous editions in a more streamlined system.

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My problem with requiring a set rest period for anything at all is it puts part of the mechanic under so much player control that it can get in the way of the story.


I like the distinction between powers that can't be used more than once per encounter but many times per day and powers that can't be used more than once per day, but the long rest is equally annoying as a barrier to the progress of the game because the players can become inclined to have their long rest and "force" a new day to start.


Sure there are DM ways to stop this kind of shenanigans but the point is we shouldn't have to.



Here's how I've been playing it:


Encounter powers refresh at the start of an encounter. There's no rest required, per se, but I structure the narrative such that I announce the start of a new encounter when there's been roughly 10 minutes where the players are out of immediate danger. The term "encounter" is interchangable with the term "scene" here and can encompass many smaller encounters. I've found from gameplay that 10 minutes feels a bit too long if you go by these guidelines, especially if you make an encounter a series of fights on a regular basis. I go with my gut here.


Daily powers refresh at sunrise, provided the players have taken a long rest at some point between one sunrise and the next. This way a day is a static time period that the players can't force by taking a long rest right after a fight that morning to go out again that evening.



I find this works pretty well. It means the players feel like they have cool moves for fights throughout the day, it stops them from going back to the inn after a tough fight, and it leaves me free to structure the story in a way that doesn't involve an arm wrestling match over resting.


My problem with requiring a set rest period for anything at all is it puts part of the mechanic under so much player control that it can get in the way of the story.


I like the distinction between powers that can't be used more than once per encounter but many times per day and powers that can't be used more than once per day, but the long rest is equally annoying as a barrier to the progress of the game because the players can become inclined to have their long rest and "force" a new day to start.


Sure there are DM ways to stop this kind of shenanigans but the point is we shouldn't have to.



Here's how I've been playing it:


Encounter powers refresh at the start of an encounter. There's no rest required, per se, but I structure the narrative such that I announce the start of a new encounter when there's been roughly 10 minutes where the players are out of immediate danger. The term "encounter" is interchangable with the term "scene" here and can encompass many smaller encounters. I've found from gameplay that 10 minutes feels a bit too long if you go by these guidelines, especially if you make an encounter a series of fights on a regular basis. I go with my gut here.


Daily powers refresh at sunrise, provided the players have taken a long rest at some point between one sunrise and the next. This way a day is a static time period that the players can't force by taking a long rest right after a fight that morning to go out again that evening.



I find this works pretty well. It means the players feel like they have cool moves for fights throughout the day, it stops them from going back to the inn after a tough fight, and it leaves me free to structure the story in a way that doesn't involve an arm wrestling match over resting.


Then, what is a day, and what is an encounter ?

What happens in countries, planets, or planes where sunrise is a matter of hours, days (as 24 hours periods), or months ? What happens when there is no sun or moon ?

You fight a group of goblins.
One hobgoblin scout arrives during the fight and shouts to call for help before to die.
There's one goblin left standing and a group of hobgoblin arrives.
The goblin is still alive when the last hobgoblin is killed, has an hostage (a prisoner or else), and has never stop shouting to call for help since the arrival of the hobgoblin group.
The party starts to negociate for the life of the hostage.
Another hobgoblin group arrives, the goblin kills the hostage and goes to find more help.
There's one hobgoblin left standing and another larger group arrives, following the goblin from the first group of foes, the heroes chose to retreat.
After an hour, the heroes are safe, the hobgoblins (and the goblin) have lost their trail.
The goblin wins.

In this example, how many encounters are there ?

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In 4e and Next, I simple go X minutes after you catch your breath. So if the fighting stops and walk around the dungeon for X minutes doing nothing in particular, it counts as a recharge of "encounter" powers. If you are running before the second wave of guards show up, not breath is caught so no rest.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

In 4E, I ruled that any moment of calm where you were allowed to catch your breath allowed encounter powers back and suges spent. "Catching your breath" takes a few rounds of time.

Like:
* Combat halt's for a moment because of some dialog or something, new encounter.
* Combatants are for some reason separated for a few rounds, new encounter.
* Characters finish combat in one room and goes into the next relatively at once, new encounter.

I also allowed:
If a player gets out of combat completely (no attacks are made against the player, the player is not threatened and no damage is taken) for a few rounds that player have gotten a short rest. I used an Endurance check when needed.

However:
* Players rush through encounters on time, where every round counts, then they do not get to take short rests automatically and if they do, then those rounds need to be counted.

* An extended physical challenge, such as pursuing a fleeing foe or being chased is a single encounter unitl the players or some player gets the oportunity to stop and breathe.
My only issue with these things is they are a bit too binary.

I mean, what happens if you can catch your breath for 3 minutes?
7 minutes?
Or sleep for 2 hours?
7 hours?

That said, i'm glad there's at least a step between at-will and daily.

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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It's real world and gamist world in one.

10 minutes can be a long time. If you are overtaking a stronghold you may not have 10 minutes of rest, especially if you are very loud (and honestly what battle isn't) before something else comes looking for you.

These encounter powers are more powerful than something that you can always use, but require some downtime. Downtime that doesn't always have to be, or can be taken. If the princess dies in 20 minutes, a 10 minute rest isn't really feasable.
Wow.  I was actually easier in 4e than some of you.  I've assumed from 1e on that after every battle the group rests up for approximately 10 minutes.   Fixing dings in armor, bandaging wounds, etc...  So narratively, whenever there was a break in the action I just gave them their encounter powers back.

In non-combat mode though, I tended to do everything in 10 minute increments.  They specify their marching order if in a dungeon, and their standard operating procedure.  Searching a room took ten minutes.   Basically ten minutes was the time currency for non-combat.

The exception to the above would be when time is running out and they are racing to stop something from happening.  But in such situations it is pretty risky and the odds of hitting a trap are high if one exists.  The odds of being surprised also goes up.  And of course without any rest between fights they don't get their encounters back.  But for my groups this would have been a very special "mode" and most of the time it's ten minutes per group action.  Obviously things like long conversations etc... were just estimated and alloted.



 
I use the 4E mechanic of short rest as just "whenever the DM says the last encounter is done" and so I tell my players when they can recharge encounter powers. So after a combat, they can search and loot and keep a look out or keep moving, but they will not know if they will be able to recharge their encounter powers before the next encounter. When the next one does actually happen, before initiative is rolled, I let them know they can recharge them...or not. I may let them know right after the encounter if I think it works better than way. So sometimes it is better to keep some tension and not let them know until the very last moment. 

Thus, the actual time itself means nothing in my games. You could sleep for 8 hours after an encounter, and wake up and have a new encounter and hear me say "your encounter powers are not recharged". It is more of a goal based recharge for me, not a time based one. If the PCs accomplish a certain goal, which may be as simple as defeating an encounter, or perhaps it is finding the hidden key after the encounter, or maybe it is exploring the dungeon through the door that just became available after defeating the encounter and finding the next clue, or whatever, then they get the powers back. So this motivates them to keep moving and keep thinking and keep going so as to make sure they are making progress in the mission they are on. It also lets me set up encounters in such a way that if the players go at them the best way, they recharge powers each time, but if they do not find the best plan of attack, they may not. This would be a disincentive to just mindlessly plowing through the mission, but would encourage some effort of thinking it through, finding clues to discover the best way through, etc. Making it goal based works for me.

Daily recovery is also goal based, it cannot happen before reaching 1 MileStone (so even if you spent months of downtime or travel, you do not get them restored until you achieve at least that 1 MileStone), and if you reach 2 MileStones you get a Daily recharge when you get your Encounter recharge. So once they hit MileStone 2, if they met the goal to allow encounter recharge, they instead get full recharge of all just as if taking a long rest. Currently this includes hitpoints and surges restored, but this could be set up so you recover these at some other trigger goal if you like. If they do not reach MileStone 2, but did reach MileStone 1, I allow them to restore all if they can actually rest for 6 hours, which may prove impossible in some situations, but may be possible in others, though perhaps with a cost (like enemy strong points they overcame being restocked and the enemy now on high alert). So this usually encourages them to shoot for 2 MileStones instead. Which is about 4 encounters.

Thus, Daily powers are more like Once per 4 Encounter powers.  
It seems most forumers here are actually on the same wavelength. They know there is a technical definition for a “short rest”, but handle it intuitively anyway.

Personally, I treat the encounter and the short rest, combined, “as if” taking about 15 minutes. But I dont separate between them and I dont actually mark the passing of minutes.

The fact is, each round is roughly equivalent to 6 seconds. So virtually EVERY combat portion of the encounter lasts less than 1 minute. The fighting time is so short, there is no point treating it as a significant length of time. The only thing that can prolong an encounter is if targets are out of reach behind objects, there are simply too many targets or new targets arrive while the action is still going on, or if some kind of chase ensues. Even this extra time is just treated as part of the average 15 minutes.

(Note, I actually treat each round as if roughly 9 seconds, with all participants taking their 9-second turns almost simultaneously. So there is exactly 100 rounds per roughly 15-minute encounter, and 100 encounters per 24 hours. Metricizing time into tens makes it easier for me to ballpark time. So 3 rounds equals 3% of an encounter, and 3 encounters equals 3% of a day. I rarely have to know precisely how much time passes, but if some time-sensitive issue turns up, I can easily guestimate about how many rounds have passed in the encounter, or how many encounters have passed in the day.)

So basically, I say, if a pause in combat grants the opportunity to search for loot and bandage wounds, then this is the same thing as a short rest.

In other words, finding treasure is the same thing as completing a short rest.

Altogether, the fight and the clean-up afterward total roughly 15 minutes. To me this amount of time, as well as the brevity of the actual combat seems realistic enough.
Then, what is a day, and what is an encounter ?

What happens in countries, planets, or planes where sunrise is a matter of hours, days (as 24 hours periods), or months ? What happens when there is no sun or moon ?

You fight a group of goblins.
One hobgoblin scout arrives during the fight and shouts to call for help before to die.
There's one goblin left standing and a group of hobgoblin arrives.
The goblin is still alive when the last hobgoblin is killed, has an hostage (a prisoner or else), and has never stop shouting to call for help since the arrival of the hobgoblin group.
The party starts to negociate for the life of the hostage.
Another hobgoblin group arrives, the goblin kills the hostage and goes to find more help.
There's one hobgoblin left standing and another larger group arrives, following the goblin from the first group of foes, the heroes chose to retreat.
After an hour, the heroes are safe, the hobgoblins (and the goblin) have lost their trail.
The goblin wins.

In this example, how many encounters are there ?




Honestly, they're just conventional terms that loosely correspond with segments in the narrative. There's no need to give them strict definitions, and actually that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid because I prefer to let the dynamic of a given scenario dictate these things. I find it's easiest to just use an earth day 'cause that's what we all know and the term "sunrise" is really just used as a marker. Even in places where the days are different lengths, people I've played with tend to think in terms of earth time so why fight it?


In your example probably the negotiation would be a reasonable place to call a rest, but it really depends on how long they negotiate. It also depends on how beat up they are and how strong the next wave is; I don't wanna stack the odds so hard against the players that they don't have fun so if things have been particularly tough and I don't think they'll have any chance of survival, I'll call a new encounter so they get their powers back.


The thing you're trying to do is quantify what I'm saying, and I'm deliberately not quantifying what an encounter is, what a short rest is, or what a day is. I'd rather power regeneration be determined by the narrative and I don't like it when players feel like they can force a new day to happen by setting up camp for 8 hours no matter what time of day it is, nor do I really like it when they try to force a short rest into a spot where it's really not appropriate.


Basically I want control over when they get their powers back and I don't want them to have very much say in it.