Rule question, order of resolution of feat, item and class feature effects

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Are there any rules that explain what order class features, feats and item properties are applied?

Example:

An Invoker with the feats Devastating Invocation and Punishing Radiance uses a power with the Radiant keyword and scores a critical hit.

Which feat takes effect first?

Do feats take effect before class features or item properties?

Can a player choose the order which feats, item properties and class features are applied to the resolution of a power?

A second example:

A Genasi Swordmage|Wizard Malec-Keth Jannisary Radiant One wielding a Frost Glaive.

Frost Glaive says "all damage dealt by this weapon is cold damage"

MKJ F16 Primordial Blade says "your attacks deal 1d4 extra damage of the selected damage type"

Radiant One F21 Starborn says "whenever you deal damage to a target that is granting combat advantage to you, you deal extra fire and radiant damage to the target equal to your intelligence"

So, the Genasi casts some AoE spell at enemies granting combat advantage and uses the Frost Glaive to turn all damage to cold damage.

Can I choose what order I apply the affects?

That is, can I use Frost Glaive to turn all damage to cold damage then use Primordial Blade to add 1d4 fire damage and then, since I'm hitting someone granting CA, use Starborn to also do Radiant damage?

It seems to me that I should be able to apply the effects in whatever order I want and hence, deal Cold, Fire and Radiant damage in the second example.

Can anybody confirm or deny this or cite some rules that explain what order things are applied?

 
That is, can I use Frost Glaive to turn all damage to cold damage then use Primordial Blade to add 1d4 fire damage and then, since I'm hitting someone granting CA, use Starborn to also do Radiant damage?

It seems to me that I should be able to apply the effects in whatever order I want and hence, deal Cold, Fire and Radiant damage in the second example.

Can anybody confirm or deny this or cite some rules that explain what order things are applied?

You don't need to apply effects in a certain order for this to work.  The Primordial Blade damage, damage dealt by the weapon, and the Starborn damage are all different damage sources.  What you can't do rather, is turn PB or Starborn damage into cold damage with your weapon.

As for the first question, the wording implies that both invoker feats happen at the same time.  A power that regularly causes vulnerability, like say Bone Crusher, does not benefit from the vulnerability it creates.  Your example would require wording that provided an exception to this rule.  So I'd say no, although I'll be interested to see if someone with a better grasp of RAW can show otherwise.

edit - don't listen to me, ever.
So, since they're "extra damage" they're a seperate source and I'm good to go.

Interesting. 
"All" means "all", the damage is entirely converted to cold by the frost weapon.



I agree except that it depends on WHEN that effect is applied.

Is the Frost Weapon effect applied last, after Primordial Blade and Starborn apply their effects or, is it applied first.

So, I used a lghtning, thunder power through a frost weapon, all of that damage goes to cold damage, then I add 1d4 fire damage from Primordial Blade followed by fire and radiant from Starborn.

Order of resolution is important because Frost Blade converts "all" damage when it is used.  If another source adds extra damage after the conversion, the Frost Blade conversion is over.

If order of resolution isn't important, what order do the two feats in my first example take effect?
I agree except that it depends on WHEN that effect is applied.



No, it doesn't.

Let's say that Frost Weapon happens "first".

So you do say 20 thunder damage with a power.  Frost Weapon converts all of this to cold damage, which per the damage type rules removes the thunder keyword and adds the cold keyword.

Then PB adds 1d4 fire damage, adding the fire keyword.  This damage is also done by the Frost Weapon, so it is ALSO converted to cold damage, which removes the fire keyword we just added.

Then Starborn adds 8 fire and radiant damage, adding the fire and radiant keywords.  This damage is also done by the Frost Weapon, so it is ALSO converted to cold damage, which removes the fire and radiant keywords we just added.

IOW:

Q: Was the damage done by the Frost Weapon?

Yes -> it is converted to cold damage!
No -> it is not converted to cold damage!

That is your logic, and it doesn't happen at any point it time - it is universally true at all times of all damage done by the Frost Weapon. 
I agree except that it depends on WHEN that effect is applied.



No, it doesn't.

Let's say that Frost Weapon happens "first".

So you do say 20 thunder damage with a power.  Frost Weapon converts all of this to cold damage, which per the damage type rules removes the thunder keyword and adds the cold keyword.

Then PB adds 1d4 fire damage, adding the fire keyword.  This damage is also done by the Frost Weapon, so it is ALSO converted to cold damage, which removes the fire keyword we just added.

Then Starborn adds 8 fire and radiant damage, adding the fire and radiant keywords.  This damage is also done by the Frost Weapon, so it is ALSO converted to cold damage, which removes the fire and radiant keywords we just added.

IOW:

Q: Was the damage done by the Frost Weapon?

Yes -> it is converted to cold damage!
No -> it is not converted to cold damage!

That is your logic, and it doesn't happen at any point it time - it is universally true at all times of all damage done by the Frost Weapon. 



Intertesting.  Do you have any rule references to support this position?

Where in the rules does it say that all damage done by an attack is done by the weapon/implement of the attack?

I'd argue that Primordial Blade does the 1d4 extra fire damage and Starborn does the extra fire/radiant damage.  The weapon converts all damage done by the power but not the damage done by the PP feature and the ED feature.

I don't have a rule reference for my interpretation which is why I'm asking you for your rule reference.

Also, in what order do the feats I listed in the first example apply?  Where is the rule that supports your answer to this question?
Extra damage is done by the power. Things that add extra damage do not, themselves, deal any damage. Ever. They add onto something else that is dealing damage. So when you say "The weapon converts all damage done by the power" you just agreed. It is all one instance of damage.
And damage dealt by the power is damage dealt by the weapon/implement - this is a function of the Weapon or Implement keywords.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Thanks Alcestis and Mand12, can either of you provide a book and page with rules explaining this?

I'm not disagreeing, I just don't know where to find this information.  My searching hasn't yielded any results.

I'll try digging through the keywords to find language that says that.

I'll also look up extra damage.
If Frost Weapon said something like "all damage dealt by this weapon is converted to / becomes /etc." then there might be a timing question.  However, the actual language is that all such damage is frost damage.  The damage doesn't "start out" something else and get converted; from the moment the damage existed, it was frost damage.
I'm NOT disagreeing, just asking for rule references.  This forum is dedicated to RAW.  So, where in the rules are some of the things you guys are saying written.  I just want to read the rules so I can improve my system mastery.

Where in the rules is Alcestis

"Extra damage is done by the power.  Things that add extra damage do not, themselves, deal any damage.  Ever."

stated?

I am not looking for an arguement I just want to read the rule that explains this stuff.
The extra damage rules are in the PHB and the RC, in the damage section, under the extra damage part. Not terribly subtle.

As Mand pointed out, the reason the Weapon/Implement does all the damage is because of the Weapon/Implement keyword rules, which are under the keyword rules, sub-section Accesory Keywords.
It's quite possible I'm having trouble with this because I'm using the online compendium to look up rules.  Here is the extra damage rule from the online compendium:

"
Many powers and other effects grant the ability to deal extra damage.
Extra damage is always in addition to other damage and is of the same type or types as that damage, unless otherwise noted.
Because of this rule, an effect that deals no damage cannot deal extra damage.
However, a power doesn’t necessarily have to hit a target to deal extra damage—it needs only to deal damage to the target.

Example:
Valenae the cleric might have an ability that causes her to deal 5 extra radiant damage to undead creatures.
That ability means she deals 5 extra radiant damage whenever she deals damage to an undead creature.
"
Last line in your quote. A power doesn't need to hit to deal extra damage. The only thing a power needs to do to deal extra damage is deal initial damage. So, a power deals initial damage, and then deals extra damage.

Second to last line in your quote. An effect that deals no damage cannot deal extra damage. So, if something does no damage, it cannot deal extra damage. Note the inherent point made here in both cases: the same thing that did the initial damage, also deals the extra damage.
So, in the case of devastating invocation, if I crit with an invoker power and I have the devastating invocation feat, the power I crit with is generating the damage listed in devastating invocation?


DI Text:
"
When you score a critical hit with an invoker power, each enemy within 5 squares of the target of the critical hit takes damage equal to 5 + your Wisdom modifier.
The damage type is the same as that dealt by the critical hit.
"

This isn't listed as "extra damage", its just damage.  Is this damage still covered by the extra damage rule despite lacking the extra damage wording?

That shouldn't work because it DI says critical hit with an invoker power, I could use an invoker power that doesn't do damage, if one exists ala Mass Charm, and it should still trigger DI.

So, what is dealing the damage if I crit with an invoker power that deals no damage and I have devastating invocation?  The last line of DI doesn't apply as the invoker power has no damage type?

Whispers of Defeat would be one such power, on hit is does no damage.

Binding Invocation of Chains is another.  Power slows(save ends) on hit.  What happens when I crit on that power with DI?  What does the damage?  What kind of damage is it?  The DI condition is on-hit, no on damage.
Not extra damage. Not covered by the extra damage rules.
Is this damage still covered by the extra damage rule despite lacking the extra damage wording?


In a word - no.

"extra damage" is a specific rules element, it's not just a synonym for "damage that was more than the initial damage"
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
So, is the power still doing this damage or is the feat doing the damage?
The power.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Binding Invocation of Chains is another.  Power slows(save ends) on hit.  What happens when I crit on that power with DI?  What does the damage?  What kind of damage is it?  The DI condition is on-hit, no on damage.


The power deals the damage, and it is generic, un-typed damage, since the power doesn't usually do a certain type of damage.

"However, attacks that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a critical hit."
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
That is referring to critical dice.
Since it's a free action to turn the frost weapon's at-will power on and off, can we turn the power off after it converts the original damage from the attack but before it converts the extra damage from the other sources?
Since it's a free action to turn the frost weapon's at-will power on and off, can we turn the power off after it converts the original damage from the attack but before it converts the extra damage from the other sources?

Only if you want to have none of the damage be cold. Elemental weapons are all or nothing.
No.  The other sources are not actually adding the damage in a sequence; there is one damage roll, it happens at a single moment in time, and is completely resolved in a single step.

That is referring to critical dice.

It is referring to extra damage you deal for critically hitting, yes. Often dice, sometimes a static bonus. Technically, could refer to this feat, though I'd expect a pretty different answer depending on who I polled. I'd cheerfully shrug and nod along with any player or DM who went one way or another, but if you're wanting a cite for a type of damage that a power does, on a power that does no damage, well "None" is a clear enough answer to what is only murky for non-damaging powers, and this is clearly damage you're dealing because you critically hit which non-damaging powers don't let you do ;)

It's obviously not the most optimized answer, but seemed worth bringing up, after some of the absurdity trying to dodge the energy changing mechanics. The simplest answer is to just avoid non-damaging powers. Everyone likes damage.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director