Dominating Licid and Layers

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I understand that, somehow, [C]Dominating Licid[/C] probably works within the rules. I don't understand how.

My confusion stems from "303.4i If a non-Aura permanent has an ability that refers to the "enchanted [object or player]," that phrase doesn't refer to any object or player."

At the time control-changing effects are evaluated in layer 2, it's a non-aura permanent. When it's activated ability makes it an aura in layer 4, layer 2 has already been evaluated.

So, with the layers evaluated in order, how does Dominating Licid actually gain control of a creature? 
Continuous effects aren't evaluated once and then ignored for the rest of the game. They're always on. As soon as the Licid becomes an aura and attaches to the targeted creature, the control effect kicks in.

The layers exist to define how some contradictory effects might behave. For example, casting Giant Growth on a 1/1 makes it a 4/4. Casting Turn to Frog, without looking at the rules, could make the creature either a 1/1 or a 4/4. Layers exist so that players know which answer is correct (in that case, the creature would be a 4/4 frog.)

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Continuous effects aren't evaluated once and then ignored for the rest of the game. They're always on. As soon as the Licid becomes an aura and attaches to the targeted creature, the control effect kicks in.

The layers exist to define how some contradictory effects might behave. For example, casting Giant Growth on a 1/1 makes it a 4/4. Casting Turn to Frog, without looking at the rules, could make the creature either a 1/1 or a 4/4. Layers exist so that players know which answer is correct (in that case, the creature would be a 4/4 frog.)


That interaction takes place almost entirely within Layer 7.

For the Licid to be an Enchantment - Aura, Layer 4 must be applied to the object that is Dominating Licid "613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object's card type, subtype, and/or supertype." This happens after Layer 2 is applied "613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied."

I understand that Continuous Effects are evaluated constantly, but 613.1 clearly states that "The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. [...] Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:" So, while Continuous Effects are constantly evaluated, they must always be evaluated in order.

Given that, the control changing effect must always be evaluated before the type-changing effect, so the Licid cannot ever actually change control of a creature when it's an aura.

Edited for clarity.

I think I see where your confusion is occurring. Layers only apply to multiple effects that are affecting a single object. The licid's ability turns itself into an aura, and while it's attached to a creature, a change of control effect is affecting that creature. Layers don't apply to this situation, because the two effects are on different permanents. 
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
So, with the layers evaluated in order, how does Dominating Licid actually gain control of a creature? 

It doesn't. You are correct, the rules aren't perfect. We just have to pretend that Dominating licid works when it really doesn't work. Sorry



I think I see where your confusion is occurring. Layers only apply to multiple effects that are affecting a single object. The licid's ability turns itself into an aura, and while it's attached to a creature, a change of control effect is affecting that creature. Layers don't apply to this situation, because the two effects are on different permanents. 

This is incorrect. Layers apply in the same way to all the continuous effects that affect the characteristics or set the control of objects.

shhh...

nothing to see here
move along

There's nothing wrong with this interaction. (Jedi hand wave)

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Licids! *shudders*

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There's nothing wrong with this interaction. (Jedi hand wave)


There's nothing wrong with this interaction.
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No Jedi mindtricks are necessary because it really does work perfectly fine. You have to keep in mind that the two effects apply to different objects.


  • One effects makes Dominating Licid an Aura.

  • The other effect changes the control of Unamed Creature.


There's no interaction that needs to be resolved using layers or timestamps.


  • When looking at Dominating Licid, you apply one effect in layer 4.

  • When looking at Unamed Creature, you apply one effect in layer 2.


Right? Maybe the Jedis really got me bad.

I don't think that's the way it works. I'd have thought that we apply layer 1 to the whole battlefield, then layer 2, etc. I think the examples with ability removal (such as double animated Humility) assume that too. I can't see anything in rule 613 either way, though.
No Jedi mindtricks are necessary because it really does work perfectly fine. You have to keep in mind that the two effects apply to different objects.


  • One effects makes Dominating Licid an Aura.

  • The other effect changes the control of Unamed Creature.


There's no interaction that needs to be resolved using layers or timestamps.


  • When looking at Dominating Licid, you apply one effect in layer 4.

  • When looking at Unamed Creature, you apply one effect in layer 2.


Right? Maybe the Jedis really got me bad.




Sadly, continuous effects are evaluated for all objects in parallel, rather than for each object in turn - when looking at the gamestate, you look at Unamed Creature during layer 2 and no effect applies, then in layer 4 you apply an effect to the Licid.

If you evaluate each object independently, then a Confiscate-ball is undetermined: Player A casts ConfiscateA on something. Player B casts ConfiscateB on ConfiscateA. Player A uses Enchantment Alteration to move ConfiscateA onto ConfiscateB. Who controls ConfiscateA and who controls ConfiscateB?
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That would be resolved with timestamps due to a dependency loop. Since Confiscate A has a more recent timestamp, it "wins" and Player A controls both.

There is nothing in that scenario that could not be resolved by examining each object independently.
It is meaningless to talk about whether the effects are applied to each object one by one, or to all objects simultaneously -- if one arrives at an incorrect conclusion in either case, the rules have been misapplied.
That would be resolved with timestamps due to a dependency loop. Since Confiscate A has a more recent timestamp, it "wins" and Player A controls both.

There is nothing in that scenario that could not be resolved by examining each object independently.
It is meaningless to talk about whether the effects are applied to each object one by one, or to all objects simultaneously -- if one arrives at an incorrect conclusion in either case, the rules have been misapplied.



I believe it works out that Player B controls both - ConfiscateB has the earier timestamp, so changes ConfiscateA's controller to B, then ConfiscateA's effect "changes" ConfiscateB's controller to B.
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Confiscate A gets a new timestamp when it moves.

613.6d If an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification becomes attached to an object or player, the Aura, Equipment, or Fortification receives a new timestamp at that time.

Sidenote: Can this situation actually occur? Enchantment Alteration can't actually be used in this way, and Aura Graft introduces a new control effect.
Simic Guildmage could do it if one Confiscate was attached to the other to start.
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Confiscate A gets a new timestamp when it moves.

613.6d If an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification becomes attached to an object or player, the Aura, Equipment, or Fortification receives a new timestamp at that time.

Sidenote: Can this situation actually occur? Enchantment Alteration can't actually be used in this way, and Aura Graft introduces a new control effect.



Simic Guildmage
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Here is what Eli Shiffrin said in this Cranial Insertion article.
To the people who noted that the answer actually means Dominating Licid doesn't work at all: yeah. It doesn't really right now. :/ A fix for that should be forthcoming in the CR.



Eli's comment is outdated: Licids NO MORE gain «enchanted creature gets blimped» abilities;
they have them permanently. (check Gatherer!)
Dominating Licid ALWAYS have the ability «You control enchanted creature», even while he's a creature.

Hence rule 303.4i:
303.4i If a non-Aura permanent has an ability that refers to the “enchanted [object or player],” that phrase doesn’t refer to any object or player.
 


Dominating Licid actually works, whitin the rules even!
And YES, Layers are applied for the whole board simultaneously. NOT one object at a time!

Here's how it goes:

Layer 1: irrelevant
Layer 2: Dominating Licid's «You control enchanted creature» ability gives you control of the creature it's attached to.
Layer 3: irrelevant
Layer 4: Dominating Licid is turned into an Enchantment-Aura
Layer 5: irrelevant
Layer 6: Dominating Licid gains «enchant creature»
Layer 7: irrelevant 

See? No problemo!

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

Eli's comment is outdated.

It is not outdated. It was posted July 30, 2012.

The reason it does not work is because of rule 303.4i. You apply the ability "you control enchanted creature" in layer 2. At that time Dominating Licid is not an Aura, so the phrase "enchanted creature" does not refer to any object. You apply the effect and do not gain control of anything.
Eli's comment is outdated.

It is not outdated. It was posted July 30, 2012.

Therefore it is WRONG, since it says «...it gains the "gain control" ability in layer 3...», which is doubly false.

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

Let's just say the problem is outdated. It's been solved.
All Generalizations are Bad
I don't think that's the way it works. I'd have thought that we apply layer 1 to the whole battlefield, then layer 2, etc. I think the examples with ability removal (such as double animated Humility) assume that too. I can't see anything in rule 613 either way, though.


I'll grant you it's not clear, but 613 says to start with a card. Not each card.

Therefore it is WRONG, since it says «...it gains the "gain control" ability in layer 3...», which is doubly false.

You are reading the answer about Volrath's Shapeshifter, which has a text-changing effect that applies in layer 3.
If you evaluate each object independently, then a Confiscate-ball is undetermined: Player A casts ConfiscateA on something. Player B casts ConfiscateB on ConfiscateA. Player A uses Enchantment Alteration to move ConfiscateA onto ConfiscateB. Who controls ConfiscateA and who controls ConfiscateB?

There's no problem resolving that by only looking at one object at a time.

Who controls Something? He who controls ConfiscateA.
Who controls ConfiscateA? He who controls ConfiscateB.
Who controls ConfiscateB? Player B

Upd: Oops, Looks like I only read half of the original scenario. Yes, there would be a problem.
Eli's comment is outdated: Licids NO MORE gain «enchanted creature gets blimped» abilities;
they have them permanently. (check Gatherer!)
Dominating Licid ALWAYS have the ability «You control enchanted creature», even while he's a creature.

There's no creature being enchanted until layer 4 is applied to the Licid, so that doesn't matter.

Upd: ok, I'm not sure about this.
Therefore it is WRONG, since it says «...it gains the "gain control" ability in layer 3...», which is doubly false.

You are reading the answer about Volrath's Shapeshifter, which has a text-changing effect that applies in layer 3.

Dooooh! I guess I deserved this one! Yell

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

So... do we need Jedi's trick after all?

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

I've always assumed that the Licids require Jedi mind tricks, just as a matter of principle. Undecided

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I'm looking forward to the CR update to see how this gets addressed.
Me too. (There's no fix in this update. Continue to play Dominating Licid in a sensible way.)
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Me too. (There's no fix in this update. Continue to play Dominating Licid in a sensible way.)


Read as "Continue not to play Dominating Licid".
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They'll fix it when they print more licids. 
They'll fix it when they print more licids. 


So they'll never fix it is what you are saying?!
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But...Soul Seizer!

which doesn't pose a problem because it gets transformed rather than having its type changed so its copyable values are already right

if they want to do Dominating Licid right they should change the Oracle text of the ability to a copy effect, then it can apply in Layer 1.

Something like:

[COST] :  Dominating Licid copies itself except that it both loses this ability and is an Aura enchantment with enchant creature instead of being a Licid creature. Attach it to target creature. You may pay  to end this copy effect.
706.9. Copy effects may include modifications or exceptions to the copying process.

613.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, “Copying Objects.”

613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.

edit: the ability could be cleaned up a little, but it'll work

credit should also be given to SadisticMystic for framing the idea and putting the solution before me

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DJ Vortex

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So it's a copy effect that doesn't actually copy anything.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

So it's a copy effect that doesn't actually copy anything.

no, the object exists on the field with copyable values (so it is copying its mana cost and name, etc)
as the activated ability resolves it will apply a copy effect to that object taking its values immediately before the effect is applied and apply the effect effectively overwriting them (and applying the modifications and exceptions in Layer 1)

I don't think anything has ever copied itself before, but it should be possible.
If needed CR support can be added to explain in detail how to process an effect of an object copying itself.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

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My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

That's hilareous! I like it
There's an easier solution. Just change "You control enchanted creature" to "As long as Dominating Licid is attached to a creature, you control that creature".
There's an easier solution. Just change "You control enchanted creature" to "As long as Dominating Licid is attached to a creature, you control that creature".



How does this function differently...?
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