Haunting tune and at-will daze

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I have been working on a couple of builds that are able to have at-will daze by paragon, thanks to the nightmare master assassian feat. My first question is how effective dazing enemies is at paragon, since i have build that prones and dazes by lvl 12. My 2nd question is whether the level 5 skald aura daily benefits from psychic lock and/or nightmare master.

Edit unfortunately i found out that the daze only last till the start of the targets turn not mine, but does daze stop them from making immediate and interrupt abilities as wells. 
daze is a pretty powerful condition to hand out at-will.  Especially if you can knock the target prone as well.  Since then the target has the choice to: stand up and do nothing else, attack with penalties, crawl away eating an OA, sit there and do nothing.  If this build is a defender type or hybrid then you're doing pretty good if you can pull that off at-will.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

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The main thing is that nightmare assassin is only dazed until the start of their next turn.  It means they can't take opporunity & immediate actions and they grant CA, and if you have anything that does extra to dazed enemies, like an impending ki focus, it works until thier turn starts. 

But they have their full set of actions when their turn starts so being proned and dazed still lets them stand up and still have a standard and minor once their turn starts.  Regular dazing is normally more effective and you can add things like dizzying mace.
The main thing is that nightmare assassin is only dazed until the start of their next turn.  It means they can't take opporunity & immediate actions and they grant CA, and if you have anything that does extra to dazed enemies, like an impending ki focus, it works until thier turn starts. 

But they have their full set of actions when their turn starts so being proned and dazed still lets them stand up and still have a standard and minor once their turn starts.  Regular dazing is normally more effective and you can add things like dizzying mace.



Oh dam maybe i should of paid more attention to that, thought it was my next turn, so essentially it is easy combat advantage as well as allowing movement for my allies, i guess that isnt terrible but it defiently makes the build a whole lot less powerful, damm. It kind of invalidates the psion build but adds a lil more control to my hexblade build thanks.
lol yeah if it's only until the start of the targets next turn, then it's almost not worth the effort.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

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Worth bearing in mind, though, that if you can do this on OAs and mark punishments, it's potentially almost as vicious as proper dazing.
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I guess can i ask does the skald daily level 5 daily haunting tune actually work with pschic lock and nightmare master since it does auto-damage or to  'hit' do you require an attack roll???
Worth bearing in mind, though, that if you can do this on OAs and mark punishments, it's potentially almost as vicious as proper dazing.



I can't look at the combo right now, I'm at work.  But what powers would allow for this to work ?  Do you need to use power of skill on top of the other costs to be able to use it as an MBA ?

And if something requires you to hit then you have to roll to hit, powers that do auto damage like magic missile never gain the benefit of things that require a hit.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

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Can i ask, if i said instead of attacking i would attack when my enemy started his move or his attack action what would happen, if i could daze or daze+prone???
I guess can i ask does the skald daily level 5 daily haunting tune actually work with pschic lock and nightmare master since it does auto-damage or to  'hit' do you require an attack roll???

You are correct.  Haunting Tune just makes an auto-damage aura, and both of those feats require a power to hit.  Haunting Tune never hits anything, so it can't trigger those feats.

If the second question is regarding delaying your action until the enemy's turn, this kind of thing is poorly looked upon here.  Mostly because if you do it, the DM can do it too, and soon nothing is working like it should.  For example, a DM can delay his own monsters to attack during a defender's turn, preventing any retaliation through immediate actions or opportunity attacks.  Best not to go down that road.
I guess can i ask does the skald daily level 5 daily haunting tune actually work with pschic lock and nightmare master since it does auto-damage or to  'hit' do you require an attack roll???

You are correct.  Haunting Tune just makes an auto-damage aura, and both of those feats require a power to hit.  Haunting Tune never hits anything, so it can't trigger those feats.

If the second question is regarding delaying your action until the enemy's turn, this kind of thing is poorly looked upon here.  Mostly because if you do it, the DM can do it too, and soon nothing is working like it should.  For example, a DM can delay his own monsters to attack during a defender's turn, preventing any retaliation through immediate actions or opportunity attacks.  Best not to go down that road.



I can understand how that could greatly hinder ur play, espically since we only use our delays really to hit enemies out currently out of reach, guess i will probs just stick with giving combat advantage and allowing mobility, as well as proning when i stick on polearm momentum, though i did feel it would be annoying to stop creatures from doing anything i guess my at will daze will have to wait lol.
Kurobara, I still think the feat is worth considering.  But they worded it that way since at will dazing is superpowerful.  I am planning to put up a domination warpriest build in my cleric build handbook that mcs assassin partly for that feat.

A lot of its effectiveness depends on initiative order an if you attack someone who went right before you its useful, but that can vary a lot between encounters.  At will preventing enemies from using their immediates and opportunties is useful.  1500 creatures in the compendium come up when you search for "immediate" and 700 hits for "opportunity" and it gives you CA for any followup attacks and your allies CA.
A bit of a cheesy way to make Nightmare Master work the way you want is to ready your fear attack on the start your intended target's turn. A readied attack is an immediate reaction, so you actually make the attack on your target's turn at the cost of your immediate action. If you hit, it's effectively dazed for a full round.

Doing it with Fell Strike (Cleric at-will fear attack that prones) on a reach weapon makes life really miserable for your targets. Echoing Dirge (Warlock at-will close blast 5 push 2) lets you hit another creature, preferably one that just took its turn (although you have to announce both targets when you ready the attack).
You can't technically ready for the start of someone's turn (you have to ready for an action). Your triggery instead is "Ally X saying "Now!"". Convenient that ally says "Now" at the start of the enemy's turn.
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Eh. You can ready an action for "When that guy tries to do anything that requires an action" which is basically for the start of his turn.

Either way, you shouldn't ever ready an action to exploit, with the exception maybe of readying after a save, or readying for a range effect. "I'm imobalized by this spider web now, but as soon as I get out I'm going to charge that guy." Downside is that you have a 45% chance of wasting an action. "I'm going to wait to hit this guy until my party member with the shield pushes him passed me."

Readying to abuse immediate mechanics is stupid, plain and simple.
yep and it gets even more stupid when the DM takes it in stride and starts doing it too.  Then it's like that aristocrats joke that is not proper for these boards.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

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Something that people don't seem to have mentioned is that dazing every turn until the target starts at-will is still stupidly powerful. I actually have  a character who gets dazed until the start of his turn rather frequently in one of my campaigns atm, so I've seen a lot of situations where it can really screw up someone's day.

Things to consider:

Dazed stuff can't take ops. This means your party  has total freedom of movement around that monster until it's turn starts. This makes your party a party of skirmishers all of a sudden. This is awesome.

Dazed stuff can't take immediates. People have been over this already. It's also really awesome, though situationally so. Not as reliable as no-ops.

Dazed stuff grants CA. You are handing out a free +2 to hit to your entire party, or at least one or two people. If you're willing to delay until right after the mob goes, you give it to everyone for ever. The rogue will wet himself with glee.

Dazed stuff can't fly (usually). This is also highly situational, but your melee characters will love you forever for it. (Hover) isn't very common, and creatures without hover fly their speed downward and then fall as per normal when dazed. if you have a ranged fear power, you just screwed that dragon over hard.

Dazing mid-turn basically instantly ends an in-progress turn. If you can get fear powers as an op, if an enemy takes any action that provokes an op, that is their only action that turn. It's insanely annoying to DMs everywhere.
Only stun knocks flying creatures down now.  Daze is not mentioned in the RC section on flying.  And delaying until after a monster's turn gives him a chance to screw up your plans, aside from just being kind of dumb action-economy wise. 

It's certainly good on things that rely on IRs and OAs and such, but stupidly powerful is really pushing it.
A bit of a cheesy way to make Nightmare Master work the way you want is to ready your fear attack on the start your intended target's turn. A readied attack is an immediate reaction, so you actually make the attack on your target's turn at the cost of your immediate action. If you hit, it's effectively dazed for a full round.

Doing it with Fell Strike (Cleric at-will fear attack that prones) on a reach weapon makes life really miserable for your targets. Echoing Dirge (Warlock at-will close blast 5 push 2) lets you hit another creature, preferably one that just took its turn (although you have to announce both targets when you ready the attack).



Well i did put echoing dirge on a hexblade with nightmare killer and polearm momentum, so i dazed and proned, but since the daze dosent last i am not sure that polearm momentum is worth the invesment it required me to get.