A curiosity

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How many of you still play Darksun 4e?

And how many of you are waiting for Darksun 5e?

How did you like the 4ed?

Thanks. 
The Siltskimmer Page - www.siltskimmer.org
1) i'm still playing 
2)After watching the playtest packets, D&D next doesn't interest  my group  at all
3) with material from past edition it could be really fun ,without that it's very limited 
I'm OK with 4E Dark Sun, but it's only good if you heavily use the 2E supplements for world detail AND roll back a lot of the stupid un-Dark Sun changes (the biggest being arcane defiling, but I also dumped tieflings and stuff like that). Not sure I'm interested in DDNext; we'll see after it's been out for a while. I would buy Dark Sun supplements that come out just for world detail stuff, though.
Yeah, echo the sentiments above. The 4e books are ok mechanically (though a few typos irk me) but leave enormous gaps in the mythos of the setting. If you can get your hands on the 2e supplements then you are off to the races.


In particular you are going to want to hunt for:

2e original boxed set (for background flavor)
Dragon Kings (for deeper explanation on the setting's magic system and epic-level ideas)       
City by the Silt Sea (if you want Dregoth for a major antagonist)
Slave Tribes (for life outside the city-states)
Complete Gladiator Handbook (if you want to use arena combat)   
I am actually playing for the first time the 4th edition (and the 5th is about there...). I had about 6 sessions of 4 hours. The feeling is mostly there (I am playing it, not GMing it) as of course, both GM doesn't have the same approach and I am happy to play instead of gming (for once in my life!).

Though,  I am having hard time with the lack of everything from the casters classes. The fighters types gained something interesting while the magical classes were ripoff of 95% of their abilities.

I'm feeling there isn't much versatility. When you aren't in battle, you use... nothing but your roleplay and when you are in battle, you have always the same powers to use and in the same order as you did.

How do you feel about this? Did you found any ways to overcome the boringness of these characters? 
The Siltskimmer Page - www.siltskimmer.org
are you talking about 4th edition? I thought it did a much better job of making battles interesting than 2E or even 3E (which was definitely better than 2E). I guess this isn't really a Dark Sun conversation anymore, though.
to add onto Kerapalli, the racial handbooks (Elves of Athas, Thri-Kreen of Athas) and Dune Trader have been invaluable to me, as well as City-State of Tyr, for planning my Dark Sun 4E game (we're on our 2nd year now).
Ah yeah, forgot Dune Trader. That's a good one.

Basically the 4e provides a decent mechanics "skeleton" for a game, but if you want the true Dark Sun flavor your have to heavily rely on the 2e products. It's worth the effort if you can dig them out. 
I would also add Veiled Alliance to the necessary products. It has some invaluable information on the seven original city-states (and a couple of the villages) that is much more in depth than the Wanderer's Journal (from the original box set).

City-state of Tyr is invaluable for campaigns set in Tyr, while The Ivory Triangle box set is quite useful for campaigns set in (or around) Gulg and/or Nibenay.

I personally have not found a lot of use from Slave Tribes (which seems weird to me), but would agree with waxwingslain and kerapalli about Dune Trader. I'd also agree about the usefullness of the race books and Gladiator's Handbook.

As for 4e, quite frankly, I have no use for it. It is my OPINION that Wizards failed miserably converting the setting and will likely never play it. The 3.5 conversion from athas.org is the way to go for me (which I still run a campaign with, from time to time).
Yes, I am speaking of 4th ed.

I am a Darksun a GM for as long as I remember, from 2nd ed, by 3.5ed athas.org to 4th ed (which I am only player). I do have all supplement and I think I am quite a good GM for the setting (2nd to 3.5e).

My concern was about the 4th ed mechanic, not the setting (albeit there are things I have hard time with the "new darksun", but a new GM = a partly new darksun and I accept it).

Don't you feel limited as a spell caster? Or simply in the way you can build a PC ? 
The Siltskimmer Page - www.siltskimmer.org
I forgot about Veiled Alliance--another crucial supplement that, like squidfur says, has uses far beyond Alliance characters.

The 4E mechanic fails Dark Sun as a setting in one very major way (arcane defiling) but I have not noticed my spellcaster PCs being limited or weakened or anything. I use vaguely 2E-style (Prism Pentad elective defiling) arcane defiling rules (it's super beneficial, and only really affects plants) and our big sorcerer PC is Veiled Alliance and has always refused to defile anyway.
Yeah I think the mechanics are... adequate, though I think the monster book was a bit weak, given the huge amount of unique monsters that 2e had. I'd spend a lot of time re-skinning monsters and pairing them with old beasties from the 2e supplements to give more flavor to the setting. In particular a lot of the monsters could use at least a bit of psionic fluff to make them jive with the old stuff.   
Agree completely with both of those points. In fact, I thought it was rotten that they actually sometimes DID include unique, Dark Sun-flavored monsters from 2E (the so-ut, for example) but dumbed them down (it became "the rampager").
...and don't forget to stop by Grummore's links page....it's the hugiestLaughing       (.....check his sig)



heehee....just wanted to clarify that the suggestions of 2e products are for newer fans, not veterans such as the ol' silly frog himself.
How many of you still play Darksun 4e?

I could never bring myself to play it to be honest.

And how many of you are waiting for Darksun 5e?

Nope. I'm happy to just make it myself and cut WotC out of the picture. Although I do need WotC for the 5th ed rules.

How did you like the 4ed?

4th Ed Dark Sun matched 2nd ed Dark Sun quite closely to be honest. The drawback for me was that it was done using 4th ed rules.

Nope. I'm happy to just make it myself and cut WotC out of the picture. Although I do need WotC for the 5th ed rules.

What kind of rules do you use then? I'm curious! Savage world.. or?

The Siltskimmer Page - www.siltskimmer.org
Never played 4e, although I thought the DS4e books were decent enough for a limited-run release.  Some of the artwork was really nice.  I'm in mixed minds about 5e.  Will check out DS if they re-release it, but am unlikely to buy into the edition as a whole.  I'm playing a hybrid of D&D3.5, Pathfinder, athas.org, Conan d20 and some other variant/homebrew rules for my DS games
I jumped into a 4E Dark Sun campaign as soon as the books came out.  Actually, started a bit before with what information from Encounters until the books were out.  The timing worked out to my favor.  

However, by that time, 4E was not as fun for me for some reason.  I was just starting to play around with how to make 4E Dark Sun feel more deadly when that group disbanded for many reasons.  What I found was that:

Defiling was not good enough.  If all it did was give them a reroll, and all of us are smart enough to understand how bad defiling is, the one arcane caster I had was never tempted to defile.  However, as soon as I made it an optional rule that defiling increased the damage die and/or added dice to the damage pool, the caster had to hide what he was doing as that was worth it to him!  

I don't think the monsters did enough damage.  I was just starting to toy around and increase their damage, as per the charts for damage by type and level, before we quit.  I get that 4E as a rule system allows the characters to survive two or three hits before going down but that seems so against Dark Sun!  

Having said that, I liked the updated art.  I liked the game world information and ideas, including support in the online magazines again!  I also liked the idea of survival days as a nice way to summarize the need to have something like that.  However, I also found that by upper heroic level and paragon levels that by then the survival days weren't something they needed to worry about that much.  Up until that point, though, quite good!

I'm currently playing Dark Sun using Alternity and those two together work like peanut butter and chocolate!  

turlough 
Yeah, the place to talk about defiling changes is probably another thread, but I agree with you that it wasn't good enough. In short, I altered it by allowing a re-roll on either damage or to-hit, with the caster choosing the better of the two. That makes it pretty awesome, to tell the truth--re-rolling every round and picking the best result basically means you almost never miss.

Also, more complicated types of defiling allow characters to restore encounter or even daily powers. Using a daily repeatedly is about as powerful as things get.

This altered system ONLY works if your PCs actually are inclined against defiling and care about Athas, so if they do it it's a huge thing and not just some optimizer powergamer who only cares about the numbers. But my players are really good, so I'm happy with it. I love tempting the sorcerer with a reroll when he's just missed with his daily... 
Pretty much what waxwingslain said.  I use 2e fluff (I hate the shoehorned PoL/Dawn War stuff, as I've said in mad mantra) and altered Defiling in an otherwise 4e based dark sun.  I'm still enjoying it, but totally look foward to 5e's take on Dark Sun.

Crazed undead horror posing as a noble and heroic forum poster!

 

 

Some good pointers for the fellow hobbyist!:

  • KEEP D&D ALIVE, END EDITION WARS!
  • RESPECT PEOPLES' PREFERENCES
  • JUST ENJOY THE GAME!
Never played 4e, although I thought the DS4e books were decent enough for a limited-run release.  Some of the artwork was really nice.  I'm in mixed minds about 5e.  Will check out DS if they re-release it, but am unlikely to buy into the edition as a whole.  I'm playing a hybrid of D&D3.5, Pathfinder, athas.org, Conan d20 and some other variant/homebrew rules for my DS games



Care to enlight me with this? Do you have produced a document or several documents concerning this? I'm always a curious guy.
The Siltskimmer Page - www.siltskimmer.org
...and don't forget to stop by Grummore's links page....it's the hugiest       (.....check his sig)
heehee....just wanted to clarify that the suggestions of 2e products are for newer fans, not veterans such as the ol' silly frog himself.



My site is getting "vintage"... I didn't have to update it in age and most of the 2e and now 3e site are now dead link... Only the mean mean guys like Athas.org, Scott's Balic site and me still are around, keeping their site, at least, alive.

But thanks for the punt! 
The Siltskimmer Page - www.siltskimmer.org
Never played 4e, although I thought the DS4e books were decent enough for a limited-run release.  Some of the artwork was really nice.  I'm in mixed minds about 5e.  Will check out DS if they re-release it, but am unlikely to buy into the edition as a whole.  I'm playing a hybrid of D&D3.5, Pathfinder, athas.org, Conan d20 and some other variant/homebrew rules for my DS games



Care to enlight me with this? Do you have produced a document or several documents concerning this? I'm always a curious guy.



I do have a few documents for this, yes.  Do you have a size limit on your gmail, because some of them are kinda large ;)
You have a dropbox? Otherwise, we can try one document at a time.
The Siltskimmer Page - www.siltskimmer.org
I think the biggest problem in 4E is not the arcane user, but the defender. If you play the setting as per the 2E fluff (ie - metal items are rare and expensive, magic items are very rare), the defender probably doesn't wear anything better than hide armor, which means very low AC which means a very fragile defender. I partly compensated it by giving the thri-kreen fighter natural high AC, and giving all players a math fix of +2/3 level to all defends and hit rolls, but I'm not sure that these solutions are solid enough.
Eh the armor isn't completely a deal-breaker. Just use the non-standard armors (Braxat skin, etc). Since 4e essentially relegated different weapon material types to "flavor fluff", I don't see what the same can't be done with armor to maintain balance.
1)Playing: The only group I DM for is a dark sun group going for the last 6~9 months now

2)DnDNext: I'm waiting for the full release of 5e before I start to look at it, so not really :P

3)The world: I've quite enjoyed 4e Dark Sun and have used no previous edition supplements. I like that it is a skeleton to be added to, not an encylopedia or city street referdex that I have to reference every 30 seconds. 2 of my players used to play it 2e though, but judging from their knowledge of 2e Dark Sun I am guessing they also had a very inventive DM ("The Taresque is undead in Athas right?" and "I heard it was gnomes that imploded the sun to make it so big.")

4) Boringness: That sounds a bit more like a DM style or character problem rather than a world problem? I like to include a lot of skill challenges (hiding / escaping / convincing) to keep things varied, and the only character that tends to repeat their moves consistently is the archer ranger (warning shot). That was fixed by giving her a magical mount :P

5) Spellcaster: I do feel your pain there. I think Wizards did a bad job of the whole 'defiling' thing by limiting it to dailies. There should have at least been a weaker at-will or encounter version. What exactly is making you feel limited?
Hi,

1/ Yes we're playing Dark Sun ! (but not so often...). The campaign ("La Décade des Héros") begin at the time of the first boxed set and will end with the death of the Dragon (I hope we could play thus far). I'm a Dark Sun fan since the first day !

2/ I'm waiting the 5E, I like the 4E but I miss many things from the olders editions.

3/ In my opinion, 4E is very different than the other editions: by their first level, PC are already heroes able to do great things and the adventures have to reflect this fact.
Some things I made in my campaign (they are now level 6): the heroes meet Kalak, escaped the Dragon, fly on a cloud ray (thanks IDW), traveled to Kalidnay (in the demiplane of Dread) and goes back with one orb of Kalid-Ma... etc.
The conclusion of the first tier will end with Kalak's death (level 10 who kill a Sorcerer King, it's not very common in D&D !)

I also made some changes to the rules (races, defiling...). The major difference is with the magic item: the players have to many powers and I wanted to add more. I give rewards to my players: it could be could be news or changed items, powers, feats, particularity... who could be increased, lost or modified according to the players actions or interest.

Another major particularity of the 4E is the perfect balance, and the DM's job is to surprise his players with new situations, scenes, monsters, challenge... to break that ! I'm always searching new ideas or concept (like the inclusion of the Despair deck from the shadowfell sourcebook for the move in Ravenloft), and they are many blog I want to thanks :

Obsidian Portal
Sly flourish
Save versus Death
DMG p°42
And many other...


My campaigns :

Dark Sun : La Décade des Héros (4E)

Al-Qadim / Golden Voyages (Next) Planescape (Next)

And excuse my baaadly and ruuusty english...