CD: Zehir, saves a few feats I guess?

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The Fang of Zehir paragon path does... things. Nothing very interesting though. 

F11: static untyped speed bonus.
F11: ongoing damage and slow on action point. 
E11: no action extra damage on a hit
U12: at-will polymorph into a serpent form with great bonuses to hide. 
F16: ignore all poison resistance
D20: blast 3 damage + ongoing

The features are also available as feats (Fleet Footed, Venom Hand Master). The E11 already comes with the Guild Executioner paragon path, and I can't imagine a class besides the Executioner being interested enough in this effect to take the path. That leaves the action point effect, the daily (both nothing special) and the polymorph, which is ok.
This might be good for my teleport build. It stacks with fleet footed.

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my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

That PP is red. Its just so...bad.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Does the level 16 feature also ignore poison immunity? If it only ignores resist then it is pretty bad...
 
Does the level 16 feature also ignore poison immunity? If it only ignores resist then it is pretty bad...
 



Just Resist, which is pretty terrible when you consider there is a Heroic tier feat that lets you ignore both resist and immunity.
yup. 1 feat utterly obsoletes this PP
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I agree its red.  I thought it can't be that bad and did quick search for poison immune.  Over 1000 monster hits in the compendium and the first 10 random ones I checked were immune so there probably are not that many false hits.  That is just poor game design and poison almost shouldn't be a damage type if they are going to make about 1 in 5 creatures immune to it.  This makes me glad I never tried to make a poison focused PC.

The encounter power is pretty bad too.
I have only seen two cases where poison is great.  

1) You are an assassin and can take venom hand master
2) You are an elemental warlock so you can change the damage type to something else on your turn.

That is it.  Unless you can combine it with something else too. 
1) still doesn't make poison great, it makes it not actively shooting yourself in the foot. Poison support is, for all practical purposes, negative.



This. And it Requires a MC, Class, and feats, which is a net loss, not a net gain.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
There's a Drow feat that grants Vuln. 5 Poison for the entire encounter. That's almost useful.
And there's Power of Poison, but meh.
That leaves the action point effect, the daily (both nothing special) and the polymorph, which is ok.

The action point effect is also copypasta'd from the druid Coiled Serpent PP, although they spiced it up with a slow.

Overall, there's just a huge lack of originality here on top of the glaring weakness of the offerings.  Brings back bad memories of Dragon content circa Essentials release.
and the polymorph is one of the useless ones that are cute, but kinda meh.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Hi guys, sorry if you were disappointed in the path; I figured the emphasis on poison wouldn't be popular here Wink, but hey, the god of poison and all!  Hopefully, the story elements featured earlier in the article will prove useful to some of your campaigns.  Finally, if you want to, make sure to express your specific mechanical concerns in the errata forum so R&D knows about them.
Tim Eagon My DDI Articles Follow me on Twitter @Tim_Eagon
If you're going to make a poison PP, make it not blow. Those powers suck, the features suck, and you can do everything with a better PP.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Add immunity piercing or it will never be used.  It does not make sense that the god of poison would be able to be stopped by poison immunity. 
THEN IT WOULD BE OP!!!

Oh wait, then you're at base because you took a PP with awful powers and +1 to speed... 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I agree the PP is pretty weak. Also of note, as few player content as we get these days, wasting one on worshippers of an evil god that can't be used in 90% of campaigns out there is rather disappointing to me.
I have only seen two cases where poison is great.  

1) You are an assassin and can take venom hand master
2) You are an elemental warlock so you can change the damage type to something else on your turn.

That is it.  Unless you can combine it with something else too. 


When the Widow of ARach-Tinilith theme came out, I posted a skeleton for an actually half-decent drow Avenger|Executioner/Rogue Master of Poisons. It makes baseline, at least. I've even checked it out again to see if this PP was better than the original... was cured of that notion pretty quickly. 

Shroomy: if you know that your crunch content is not going to be popular, then why don't you make the effort of changing it into something that you know *will* be popular?  This is just laziness on your part.
It's basically the same problem as the anti-lycanthrope PP, except without any uniqueness (as mentioned, the 11 and 16 features can be replaced by feats). A PP needs to be passable in the worst circumstances possible, and excel when offered an ideal situation; in this case, I would have expected to see the ability to ignore poison immunity at 11th - Undead and Constructs are absolutely iconic in D&D and facing multiple encounters in a row of poison immune creatures is not only common, but actually expected (Catacombs and Laboratories). Poison, to me, calls up the image of survival experts warning to keep calm, because a high pulse spreads the poison through your body faster, speeding it's effects; I've always thought an interesting mechanic to have as part of the poison build would be similar to Blood Pulse, any action of strenuous effort would cause additional suffer to the target (each attack or move action the target takes, eont, deals X damage to the target). And really, no FFS: Unconscious on a poison daily just makes me sad.

@Shroomy: It's a shame you don't think our community is worth considering when designing mechanics. We are oh so fond of them, and several of us consider making up new game elements to be our favorite pasttime and are more than willing to offer up ideas or simply act as a sounding board.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
At least he posted?  Gotta give him credit for that, doesn't happen often.
A Beginners Primer to CharOp. Archmage's Ascension - The Wizard's Handbook. Let the Hammer Fall: Dwarf Warpriest/Tactical Warpriest/Indomitable Champion, a Defending Leader. Requiem for Dissent: Cleric/Fighter/Paragon of Victory Melee Leader Ko te manu e kai i te miro, nona te ngahere. Ko te manu e kai i te matauranga e, nano te ao katoa. It's the proliferation of people who think the rules are more important than what the rules are meant to accomplish. - Dedekine
The PP should have ignore poison immunity at 11th like Zathris said, and a morninglordlike, level 16 feature giving poison vulnerability and something like slow.
Sapphire - Swormage Dragon Guardian - Dont touch my allies build. Swordmage / Sigil Carver / Draconic incarnation The Holy Slayer - A Striker - Defender Fighter | Cleric / Barbarian - Paragon of Victory WEREBEAR BATTLEMIND: You wont go where you want. - A Battlemind (Druid) / Unbound Nomad / Topaz Crusader


@Shroomy: It's a shame you don't think our community is worth considering when designing mechanics. We are oh so fond of them, and several of us consider making up new game elements to be our favorite pasttime and are more than willing to offer up ideas or simply act as a sounding board.



I've actually used the CO board a resource in the past (not so much directly asking for assistance, since I'm under a NDA), but please remember that as a freelancer, I don't have complete freedom or control over the finished product, which is why I encourage you to communicate to WotC via the errata forum if you are disastified with the mechanics.
Tim Eagon My DDI Articles Follow me on Twitter @Tim_Eagon
[...] but please remember that as a freelancer, I don't have complete freedom or control over the finished product[...]



And this, IMO, is the problem.
You should have some SEMBLANCE control over a PP that is absolutely ****.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
From the pointy-haired management perspective, it is always safer for the Powers That Wiz to err on the side of "terrible" for new features.  A terrible feature just drops silently into the abyss, without affecting the game.  But if a feature winds up being unexpectedly good, it could cause all kinds of headaches until it gets nerfed, and then even more headaches after it gets nerfed.

From a CharOp perspective, we wish they'd stop being such **** and wasting our time with all these ineffective wastes of design space.
From the pointy-haired management perspective, it is always safer for the Powers That Wiz to err on the side of "terrible" for new features.  A terrible feature just drops silently into the abyss, without affecting the game.  But if a feature winds up being unexpectedly good, it could cause all kinds of headaches until it gets nerfed, and then even more headaches after it gets nerfed.

From a CharOp perspective, we wish they'd stop being such **** and wasting our time with all these ineffective wastes of design space.



How does that make sense. You want your product to be used.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
You've got that all backwards, from a management perspective, printing stuff that makes people want to buy the book and letting balance go hang makes sense.
Yeah, except the "book" is "free" with your DnDinsider account.

In which case, they already have your money (and often, 3-6 months at a time).
Most subscribers are paying for just the builder and compendium and never even read the articles.

I'm not complaining or trying to start anything, just saying that in the case of these articles balance (even pathetically underpowered balace that will never need to be nerfed) means more than anything, sadly...
FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline. -Alcestis
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Shroomy: if you know that your crunch content is not going to be popular, then why don't you make the effort of changing it into something that you know *will* be popular?  This is just laziness on your part.


He said "popular here", as in on this board.

Shroomy not catering to CO in his article is not laziness. You saying it is is absurd.
Writing content that provides nothing unique to the game is though.



This. You're just wrong Khan. The fact its an evil diety requirement and is a bad PP means nigh no one will take it.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
The real sticking point, to me, is that Venom Hand Master is available 15 levels earlier and bypasses immunity.

Bargle wrote:
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
 

Zelink wrote:
You're already refluffing, why not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
Wow, these guys are so enthused by the PP that they're roleplaying Zehir cultists with their relentless venomous attacks!

Too bad Shrooms are immune to poison. Cry
Writing content that provides nothing unique to the game is though.



This. You're just wrong Khan. The fact its an evil diety requirement and is a bad PP means nigh no one will take it.


It's like we're speaking different languages.

I responded to a comment that literally didn't make any sense. Erachima is making a separate point. Quoting Erachima to refute me in this way doesn't work.
It wasn't hard to see I was adding to erachima point. Which is entirely valid. I've only ever seen one person attempt a poison build, and got frustrated when everything was immune to it. Its a bad PP, restricted by an evil diety, and my point still stands. Your desire to yell at CharOp is irrelevent, it IS lazy design.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Look, I'm happy for Shroomy he got commissioned by Perkins, and the rest of the article is downright inspired. It's just sad to see it brought down by such a completely crappy path.

If you are approached by the game's makers to produce crunch, I would expect you to at least have a level of system mastery where you know that a lot of monsters are immune to poison. Then you start basing the paragon path on that, and build from there to create something that actually makes players want to play a poisonthemed character. What you don't do is add a level 16 feature that is worse than a heroic feat. If you produce that, you either didn't bother to look it up (lazy) or have no idea how to produce interesting crunch, which I specifically did not accuse Tim of.

So you're kind to defend him, but you're just wrong.
Look, I'm happy for Shroomy he got commissioned by Perkins, and the rest of the article is downright inspired. It's just sad to see it brought down by such a completely crappy path. If you are approached by the game's makers to produce crunch, I would expect you to at least have a level of system mastery where you know that a lot of monsters are immune to poison. Then you start basing the paragon path on that, and build from there to create something that actually makes players want to play a poisonthemed character. What you don't do is add a level 16 feature that is worse than a heroic feat. If you produce that, you either didn't bother to look it up (lazy) or have no idea how to produce interesting crunch, which I specifically did not accuse Tim of. So you're kind to defend him, but you're just wrong.



*shrugs* not writing crunchy mechanics for people on this board to go gaga over still has nothing to do with laziness. A different outlook on the game maybe, valuing the fluff over the mechanics? I do realize that not caring overly much about mechanics is considered a deadly sin by some here (and I use that wording on purpose as those people tend to also elevate mechanics to a religion ). But I am just guessing,  honestly I do not really know why the article turned out a (cool and well done) fluff piece with little crunch. From the article I seriously doubt Shroomy was "approached by the game makers to produce crunch" . More likely a suggestion was made to the Dragon editors (possibly by Shroomy) to do a piece on Zehir, with an addition of "Oh and lets add a PP". 

Is the PP horrible from a char-op perspective? Well I personally do not see any redeeming mechanical features, so probably. So I would say on this forum it is perfectly fine to burn it to the ground, deride it, curse it, call it uninspired, a mechanical fail made redundant by a heroic feat, etc. And I would agree with that mostly. But lets focus on the mechanics, not the person...to accuse the writer of being lazy.. Just not cool IMO. If anything I would consider tossing stuff like that from the sidelines a lot more lazy..

Edit: oh and of course if Shroomy was in fact commisioned by the Dragon editors to produce crunch, then I take most of this back But even then, still not lazy, just mechanically horri..err..bad. Additionally we also have little idea how much of the work was changed in editing.. not are we likely to know (nor should we). So, again, why not keep it about the mechanics and not the people..

To DME, or not to DME: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous powergaming, Or to take arms against a sea of Munchkins, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;No more;
So I would say on this forum it is perfectly fine to burn it to the ground, deride it, curse it, call it uninspired, a mechanical fail made redundant by a heroic feat, etc. And I would agree with that mostly. But lets focus on the mechanics, not the person...to accuse the writer of being lazy.. Just not cool IMO. If anything I would consider tossing stuff like that from the sidelines a lot more lazy..



I can hardly blame the game itself, can I? There is nothing in the mechanics that demands poison being a bad damage type, or Zehir needing a bad paragon path. I'm sorry, but blaming the mechanics is a ridiculous argument.

If we assume that Perkins didn't specifically ask for a bad paragon path that doesn't add anything to the game, that leaves only the author and the editor. Maybe Tim isn't to blame here, after all he did say on the DDI forum that the editor also had a hand in the final version of the path. But even then he should've put his foot down if he cared anything at all about his article. In that case he should've asked the editors for something better than this, and if they didn't deliver he should've refused to have it published until they improved it.

Sound harsh? Yes, but an author has the right to publish something that gets remembered for its quality. Now, the article will only go down in CharOp history (or more likely be quickly forgotten) as the article that produced yet another bad paragon path. And that's a shame, because after 4 years you'd expect people to know how to design and develop a paragon path that is at least decent. The way it's published now, the path is an embarrasment to the game, the game's developers and ultimately to the author himself. That's what Tim has to live with now, while he could've gone down in CharOp history as the guy that finally published something that made poison worthwile.
So I would say on this forum it is perfectly fine to burn it to the ground, deride it, curse it, call it uninspired, a mechanical fail made redundant by a heroic feat, etc. And I would agree with that mostly. But lets focus on the mechanics, not the person...to accuse the writer of being lazy.. Just not cool IMO. If anything I would consider tossing stuff like that from the sidelines a lot more lazy..



I can hardly blame the game itself, can I? There is nothing in the mechanics that demands poison being a bad damage type, or Zehir needing a bad paragon path. I'm sorry, but blaming the mechanics is a ridiculous argument.

If we assume that Perkins didn't specifically ask for a bad paragon path that doesn't add anything to the game, that leaves only the author and the editor. Maybe Tim isn't to blame here, after all he did say on the DDI forum that the editor also had a hand in the final version of the path. But even then he should've put his foot down if he cared anything at all about his article. In that case he should've asked the editors for something better than this, and if they didn't deliver he should've refused to have it published until they improved it.

Sound harsh? Yes, but an author has the right to publish something that gets remembered for its quality. Now, the article will only go down in CharOp history (or more likely be quickly forgotten) as the article that produced yet another bad paragon path. And that's a shame, because after 4 years you'd expect people to know how to design and develop a paragon path that is at least decent. The way it's published now, the path is an embarrasment to the game, the game's developers and ultimately to the author himself. That's what Tim has to live with now, while he could've gone down in CharOp history as the guy that finally published something that made poison worthwile.

+1

Sapphire - Swormage Dragon Guardian - Dont touch my allies build. Swordmage / Sigil Carver / Draconic incarnation The Holy Slayer - A Striker - Defender Fighter | Cleric / Barbarian - Paragon of Victory WEREBEAR BATTLEMIND: You wont go where you want. - A Battlemind (Druid) / Unbound Nomad / Topaz Crusader
Its not even CharOp history. You can't play it in LFR, many DMs would be leery of letting you worship and evil snake god, and thats BEFORE getting frustrated by poison. It's just a PP that will likely never be used.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!

The path is a mixed bag, but hardly as terrible as this murder of crows is making out.

The only truly regrettable element is More Souls for Zehir. The compendium finally manages text strings correctly, so we can establish that at least 773 ("immune disease, poison" and "immune poison") and probably most of the 1,036 hits for "immune" and "poison" are unaffected. Out of 5,056 writeups, there are only 141 with "resist X poison" in their writeup, so maybe twice that have some form of poison resistance, for a range of 2.3% to 5.6% of published targets foes. Why yes, that is a terribly, terribly niche benefit.

The other poison features are 1/encounter, on an AP attack, and a daily. A shrewd player will be able to largely ensure that he uses them on the ~80% of targets that they will fully impact. It's not good that Envenomed Action can't simply be paired with Fingers of Zehir once per day; that is a little regrettable, too, but neither is it a deal killer.

Beyond that, you get a +1 to speed, always useful but especially when paired with the glory and awesome that is Shadow Serpent Form. Permahidden builds, behold your beautiful new bride. Huge power bonus to Stealth? Check. No speed penalty? Check. Hide behind allies? Sweet baby Crom, check. Roll for hidden with only concealment and without giving up my %$#!@ immediate action for Persistent Tail? Yes, sign me up now and I'll gladly drink the poison Kool-Aid, check!!!

Sure, it only works every other turn, but a clever player with a speed 7+ PC should be able to position himself next to a fully concealing terrain feature on alternating turns with regularity. Or just be a true dual implement wielder with a Shadow Master Ki Focus in one hand for attacking-from-hidden rounds and something differently nasty for the alternating turns.

There are several ranged-AoE builds that don't have a defining PP available to them. Most of them are implement-based, which means you'll probably need to take something like the Windlord theme to gain at least a single encounter weapon attack on which to use the other PP features, but it's not inconceivable that a very specifically built Predator Druid or Blaster Mage would jump at the chance to take this PP.

Just change the L16 to ignore immunity before you officially publish it, 'K? ;) 
BTW, when I half-jokingly said that I knew the path wasn't going to be popular here, it was because it was poison-centric, which puts it up there with fire and necrotic for least popular damage types on the CO board, and because it was associated with an evil deity, which generally means its disallowed by OP, and lots of you guys are OP participants. I didn't mean to imply that I did not care about the mechanics.
Tim Eagon My DDI Articles Follow me on Twitter @Tim_Eagon