Elemental Escalation (Fire) questions

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The power says that the extra damage from EE is the same type as the power used to trigger EE.  That wording states that EE has a damage type.  Whether you agree with that statement or not, it is an explicit statement that EE has a damage type.

ALL arcane admixture does is ADD a damage type.  It does not look to see if the power deals damage.  It does not look to see if it is an at will, encounter, or daily power.  It looks for is it an arcane power and is it one you know how to do.  That is all.  It then adds a damage type to what is already there.  In the case of EE, it has a damage type of "varies."  Regardless of how badly written it is, that is the way it is written.  Because it has a damage type, it even fits the part where arcane admixture looks for a damage type to add another damage type to.

I will nitpick over the paragon requirement if you ignore where I stated in a previous post that EE damage is done by the power used to trigger EE.

And to clarify, which it seems it needs, the damage from EE is fire, in the instance you brought up, BECAUSE THE POWER STATES THAT EE has the fire keyword due to being triggered by a power with the fire keyword, and after L17, would add fire to any power you use it on because it adds fire damage to what the power does regardless of what damage type the power has.  If you use EE(fire) on ice prison at L17, it would have both cold and fire, the fire from EE.  Extra damage adds damage types.  It is why weapon of summer adds fire.  It is why warlock's curse+gloves of eldritch admixture add acid/cold/fire.  Heck, it is why whetstones add damage types as well.

I have established instances of where extra damage has a damage type and adds a damage type keyword to a power.

What I cannot find anywhere is the rule that states that arcane admixture cannot be applied to an arcane attack power that has a damage type.
There's no rule against it.  The feat text just doesn't do what you think it does.  You're reading text that isn't there, and there's not much I can do about that.
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I am reading the text of the feat.  There is nothing anywhere in that feat that states the power must deal damage. 

You are the one making the claim that the power must deal damage to be able to be affected by arcane admixture.  But that claim is no where in the feat.  The feat looks for an arcane power that you know.  It does not even ask for an attack power.  The feat states that it adds a damage type to the power.  It does not even say that the power has to deal damage.  You are the only one saying that.  The only evidence supporting your position that you have given is the rule about adding and subtracting damage types to powers.  Which still says nothing about adding, or not being able to add, a damage type to extra damage.

Arcane Admixture
Benefit: Choose one arcane power that you know(elemental escalation(fire)), and choose acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder(cold). The power now deals that damage type in addition to its normal damage type("varies") and gains that keyword(cold).

This is my claim.  If you add arcane admixture to elemental escalation(fire), then elemental escalation will now do "varies" damage type, with "varies" being a damage type defined in the RC, in addition to what you choose for the arcane admixture.  That is what the feat says explicitly. 

Please point out where in the feat it states that the power must deal damage to be affected by arcane admixture.  Or point out where extra damage cannot and never can gain a damage type keyword.
I'm with Mand on this.

EE absolutely CAN be Admixtured, and it absolutely will add the chosen keyword to EE.

Admixture says, "The power now deals that damage type in addition to its normal damage type," however, and EE doesn't deal damage, so has no damage type, and doesn't gain another damage type.

Just admixture elemental bolt and/or ignition.  

This is also something that most DMs would be willing to allow, even though by strict reading of the rules, it doesn't work the way you want it to. 

Admixture says, "The power now deals that damage type in addition to its normal damage type," however, and EE doesn't deal damage


And it doesnt have to. It has to deal a damage type, which Elemental Escalation does. Its the reason why Elemental Escalation has the varies keyword and Hellfire Touch has the fire keyword for exemple, its because they deal a damage type.

Admixture says, "The power now deals that damage type in addition to its normal damage type," however, and EE doesn't deal damage


And it doesnt have to. It has to deal a damage type, which Elemental Escalation does. Its the reason why Elemental Escalation has the varies keyword and Hellfire Touch has the fire keyword for exemple, its because they deal a damage type.


"the power deals that damage type in addition to its normal damage type"

does not function when the power in question deals no damage

still doesn't change the type of the extra damage
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But like I said, I think almost any DM anywhere would allow it to work if you asked nicely.  It's an extremely reasonable thing to ask for, and I wouldn't hesitate to allow it at all.

But if the question is, "does it work this way by RAW?", then the answer is no.

Like Mand said, "the power deals that damage type in addition to its normal damage type" falls apart when the power doesn't deal damage.  If EE dealt damage, then it would do the admixtured type in addition to its normal type of damage, and it would work the way you want it to.

Pretend it explicitly deals zero damage, rendering it as follows:


Elemental Escalation (Fire)

As elemental energy flows through you, the rage of your internal inferno infuses it, and you move like a wildfire.


Encounter        Arcane, Elemental, Varies
Free Action      Personal


Trigger: You use a sorcerer at-will attack power.


Effect: You can make one additional creature a target of the triggering attack. If the attack’s range is melee or ranged, the additional target must be within 5 squares of you. If the attack’s range is area or close, the additional target must be adjacent to the burst or blast.
Before resolving the attack, each target of the attack takes 0 fire damage.
    Each target hit by the attack takes 1d10 extra damage of the type dealt by the triggering attack. In addition, you shift up to half your speed as a free action.

 


 Using Arcane Admixture (thunder) on EE would change that to:


Elemental Escalation (Fire)

As elemental energy flows through you, the rage of your internal inferno infuses it, and you move like a wildfire.


Encounter        Arcane, Elemental, Thunder, Varies
Free Action      Personal


Trigger: You use a sorcerer at-will attack power.


Effect: You can make one additional creature a target of the triggering attack. If the attack’s range is melee or ranged, the additional target must be within 5 squares of you. If the attack’s range is area or close, the additional target must be adjacent to the burst or blast. 
Before resolving the attack, each target of the attack takes 0 fire and thunder damage.
    Each target hit by the attack takes 1d10 extra damage of the type dealt by the triggering attack. In addition, you shift up to half your speed as a free action.


 The only damage dealt by EE is that zero damage, so it's the only damage that will be affected by admixture. The extra damage is dealt by the triggering attack, so it is the triggering attack that would have to be admixtured in order to have its damage type affected. 
Ok.  Here is a non-hypothetical example.

EE(fire) is added to ice prison by a L17 elementalist.  What damage types does ice prison now have? 
Ice Prison will have the Cold and Fire keywords, and it will deal 1d8+2d10+Cha cold damage, and ongoing 10 fire damage.
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So the power that does no damage on its own can add a damage type to a power that does not have that damage type.  Yet you cannot add a damage type to that power, which does no damage on its own, with a feat that says you can.
At level 17 Elemental Escalation deals damage. It deals Ongoing damage more specifically.

Ice Prison will have the Cold and Fire keywords

Why would Ice Prison get the fire keyword from Elemental Escalation ?
Because the attack is causing ongoing fire damage, as a result of the EE rider.  It's a result of a hit with the base power.

Koshi, yes, that is what I'm saying.  Because EE is making another power do things, and every modification that happens to that base power happens to that base power, but modifying the keywords of EE doesn't change what EE does because it doesn't do damage.
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But the point I am trying to make is that the power, EE, has a damage type.  Arcane admixture says "add another damage type to the damage type the power already deals"(paraphrasing).  There is nothing in the feat that says the power "has to deal damage", "when it deals damage", or anything along those lines. 

I do understand what you are saying.  I just do not agree.  There is nothing in the rules that I can find that states that arcane admixture does nothing to EE.  It is an arcane power.  It is one you know.  It definitely has a damage type.  From reading the feat, that is all it is looking for.
Of course. YOU always deal damage. But through powers.

Or through feats (Slashing Storm); or through PP features (Stormwarden), etc. ; )
But the point I am trying to make is that the power, EE, has a damage type.  Arcane admixture says "add another damage type to the damage type the power already deals"(paraphrasing).  There is nothing in the feat that says the power "has to deal damage", "when it deals damage", or anything along those lines. 

I do understand what you are saying.  I just do not agree.  There is nothing in the rules that I can find that states that arcane admixture does nothing to EE.  It is an arcane power.  It is one you know.  It definitely has a damage type.  From reading the feat, that is all it is looking for.

Even after level 17, EE does not deal damage.  Saying it "has a damage type" is both misleading and irrelevant.

Adding an additional damage type to EE's zero damage via admixture will not add that additional damage type to the triggering power. 

At all levels, EE causes the triggering power to deal additional damage, and after level 17, EE(Fire) causes the triggering power to deal ongoing fire damage.

At this point, arguing with you is becoming tiresome, so please just talk with whoever your DM is about it, because our opinions don't matter, and because regardless of the rules, any DM who doesn't allow it is just being silly.

If you're making it for LFR, though, the RAW still says no, so just admixture Elemental Bolt or Ignition (or Ice Prison) and stop arguing.  
Elemental Escalation at level 17 is dealing damage. Ongoing damage is a form of damage and it has a damage type. I'd say Elemental Escalation at level 17 would add a new damage type to the ongoing damage type if Arcane Admixtured.

after level 17, EE(Fire) causes the triggering power to deal ongoing fire damage.

Because the attack is causing ongoing fire damage, as a result of the EE rider.  It's a result of a hit with the base power.

I disagree. The ongoing damage is not addition to Ice Prison's damage since its not an extra damage. The ongoing damage is not part of the triggering damage in any way. The hit is just what enables it to come into effect. 

The ongoing damage is dealt by Elemental Escalation and thus Ice Prison shouldn't gain the fire keyword in Mand12's exemple.


RC 224 Ongoing Damage: Some powers deal damage on consecutive turns after the initial attack. Such damage is called ongoing damage. 
To reach that conclusion though, you have to ignore all of the mechanics about how EE works.  Take the additional target.  Is it being targeted by EE, or the base power?  Answer:  Base power.

Everything EE does is a modification to the base power.  In this respect it is an extension beyond the simple extra damage rules.  It's no different from Mark of Storm, or any of the effects that modify attacks.

To use a contrasting example, Dread Smite is a power that deals damage, and deals ongoing damage.  And it's not at all the same as what EE does.  "Each target hit by the attack" means that it is a modification to the attack, the entirety of the line. 

What you're trying to tell me is that EE can change the targets of an attack, change what happens when an attack hits that target, but the result of that attack isn't being done by the attack.  That's not how attacks work.  This clearly falls under the category of the result of an attack roll.
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To reach that conclusion though, you have to ignore all of the mechanics about how EE works.  Take the additional target.  Is it being targeted by EE, or the base power?  Answer:  Base power.

I don't ignore anything that Elemental Escalation says. But i don't let it do more than it says, like you do. Additional targets are targeted by The triggering power since Elemental Escalation has no target line.


Everything EE does is a modification to the base power.  In this respect it is an extension beyond the simple extra damage rules.  It's no different from Mark of Storm, or any of the effects that modify attacks.

 Elemental Escalation doesn't say that it modify all the power does. It make one additional creature a target of the triggering attack. And Mark of Storm is a Feat enought controversial please don't bring it onto this discussion.  But if you do, you know my take on it. The Forced Movement doesn't have to be part of the attack to occur. Same here for the ongoing damage.:P


To use a contrasting example, Dread Smite is a power that deals damage, and deals ongoing damage.  And it's not at all the same as what EE does.  "Each target hit by the attack" means that it is a modification to the attack, the entirety of the line.

 Not because the Power tells you what each target of the triggering power takes some effects that these effect inherently becomes effect dealt by the triggering power. In the same vein, a Power such as Kord's Favor doesn't make the triggering attack heal yourself and gain the Healing keyword since it is delivered by Kord's Favor itself. The Extra damage are in additions to the triggering attack's damage because they say they do. Ongoing damage are not in addition's to other damage  and is thus dealt by Elemental Escalation. Ongoing damaging Powers such as Unleash Corruption, Hasten The End and  Elemental Chains have the cold & necrotic or the varies keyword because they deals (ongoing) damage of the type associated with it. 


What you're trying to tell me is that EE can change the targets of an attack, change what happens when an attack hits that target, but the result of that attack isn't being done by the attack.  That's not how attacks work.  This clearly falls under the category of the result of an attack roll.

 Elemental Escalation doesn't change what happen to triggering attack when it hit. It adds additional target and (grant the ability to) deal extra damage (added to the triggering attack's damage) and deal ongoing damage (not added to the triggering attack's damage).
Elemental Escalation doesn't change what happen to triggering attack when it hit.


Yes, it does.  That's what those effect lines are for.  The part where it says "each target hit by the attack (blahblahblah)."

Your logic is the same as in the argument that Mark of Storm can't trigger Polearm Momentum - and it has been rejected.
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Don't change subject with Mark of Storm please. (And not everyone rejected it BTW)

A triggered effect doesn't become inherently part of the triggering effect simply because it triggers it.
Elemental Escalation at level 17 says:

Elemental Escalation
Encounter        Arcane, Elemental, Varies
Free Action      Personal
Trigger: You use a sorcerer at-will attack power.
Effect: Each target hit by the attack takes 1d10 extra damage, and ongoing 10 fire damage (save ends).

This in itself doesn't make the ongoing damage part of the sorcerer at-will attack power is all i am saying. While the extra damage may not be dealt by Elemental Escalation's effect but the sorcerer's attack's damage, the ongoing damage certainly is.

It's not changing the subject, it's demonstrating the inconsistency of your argument.

If we're to the point where you're telling me that an effect that happens when an attack hits a target isn't part of "attack roll and its effects" then we're at an impasse.  You're completely wrong on this case, for numerous reasons which I've already described in detail.

Final question, before I give up on you completely:

"Each target hit by the attack takes 10 ongoing fire damage."

If Elemental Escalation is dealing the ongoing fire damage, on its own, how does it determine which creatures are targets?  How does it determine which creatures are hit?
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The inconcistency is in your extrapolation on the interactions between the two powers, i simply stick to what the power says it does and nothing more. 

The Effect of Elemental Escalation tells you who gets the extra damage and the ongoing damage (''each target hit by the attack'' is the target designator), just like Unleash CorruptionHasten The End, or Elemental Chains do in their Effect line designate who's affected. All those powers deal ongoing damage when being triggered and all have the associated damage type keyword - because they do deal this damage type effect.

You say you stick to what the power does, but you're not.  The power says that something else happens on a hit.  Under all of the effects that do something like that, the effect becomes part of a hit, and part of the attack.  Whether it's extra damage or ongoing damage or the slide or the fly-half-your-speed is irrelevant.

How you don't recognize this as blatantly inconsistent with consensus about effect riders is beyond me.
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You say you stick to what the power does, but you're not.  The power says that something else happens on a hit.  Under all of the effects that do something like that, the effect becomes part of a hit, and part of the attack.  Whether it's extra damage or ongoing damage or the slide or the fly-half-your-speed is irrelevant.

Can you cite the rule that say this because no rules do AKAIK.  If all those powers wouldn't deal ongoing damage they woudn't have the associated damage keyword present in a power when this damage type is dealt by the power. Just because you refuse to acknowledge that doesn't make it false. And i don't think such concensus exist for powers.

No where in the rules does it even say once what you claim triggered powers do. So i can only come to the conclusion that triggered powers effects don't become inherently part of their triggering power hit line since no rule say they do. Only exception is for extra damage which explicitly say so.


RC 114 Damage Type:
 If a power has one of these keywords, it deals the associated type of damage. 
 
Definition of attack.  I said this before.
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Definition of attack doesn't say: ''Under all of the effects that do something like that, the effect becomes part of a hit, and part of the attack''  anywhere go look again.
As I said before, if you're really trying to argue that an effect that is described as the result of a hit isn't part of the attack, then we're at an impasse.

By your argument even the hit line of powers wouldn't be part of the attack.  Part of the attack power, yes, but not part of the "attack roll and its effects" definition.

What rule is there that says that the Hit line of a power is part of the attack?

If you insist on this hyper-reductionist perspective, then you quickly get into stupid things like "Well, there's no rule telling me to read on page 287 before I started using my character, so none of that applies to what I'm doing."
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A hit line is part of the attack definition because its an effect resulting from the attack roll. But this does not necessarly apply to other seperate triggered power's effect that can be used when you hit a target. 

Otherwise Deadly Smite, to take your earlier exemple, would be a damage dealt by the triggering power by your definition and would thus gain the cold and necrotic keyword but we know it doesn't do this because its not a extra damage and so Deadly Smite is not a damage dealt in addition to the triggering attack's damage. To contrast, Assassin's Shroud's damage is in addition to the triggering attack's damage because it say so in the power otherwise it wouldn't because its not an extra damage. 

A triggered power's effect come into effect because the trigger is met, but doesn't become part of the triggering event inherently. Otherwise any triggered  teleport effect would convey the teleportation keyword to the triggering power, any triggered healing effect would convey the healing keyword to the triggering power etc..As i said previously, a Power such as Kord's Favor doesn't make the triggering attack heal yourself and gain the Healing keyword since it is delivered by Kord's Favor itself even if it can only be used when you hit with an attack.
So you're still claiming that an effect that is caused by the result of an attack roll isn't part of an attack.
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Elemental Escalation is not caused by the result of an attack roll but by using a sorcerer at-will attack power. :P

''Each target hit by the attack takes'' is the determinant for who gets the damaging effect and not the trigger causing the effect.

Trigger: You use a sorcerer at-will attack power.

''Each target hit by the attack takes'' is the determinant for who gets the damaging effect



And how is this not exactly how all attacks work?
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Elemental Escalation is not exactly like how all attacks work because its not a Hit effect from an attack roll result.
"Each target hit by the attack takes"

is not a hit effect from an attack roll result?
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No. Elemental Escalation is not a Hit line its an Effect line.

Its an effect affecting creatures that have been hit by another power.
"It's an effect affecting creatures that have been hit"

Exactly my point.
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No your point is that its a hit effect. Don't steal my point Wink

''Each creatures hit by the attack takes'' is a target designator for a different triggered power's effect, not a Hit effect.  
As I said before, if you're really claiming that the result of a hit determination of an attack roll isn't part of an attack, then we're at an impasse.  We've now devolved to the NO U stage of debating.  Unless someone else can chime in with something new, we could go in circles forever.  Or not.
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I am not claiming that the result of a hit determination of an attack roll isn't part of an attack, i am claiming that designating a target (that has been hit by an attack) for an effect doesn't make it part of the attack.

You really see no difference between these two hypothetical powers below ? Only one of them would be in addition to the triggering attack's damage and be maxed if it was a Crit. Yet on your opinion both are identical and their effect become part of the triggering attack hit's effect. I say only the Power B's effect will be part of the the triggering attack because the extra damage rules say so.

In the same vein Elemental Escalation's effect has extra damage (in addition to the triggering attack's damage) and ongoing damage (not in addition to the triggering attack's damage)

Power A                                                                       Power B
Trigger: You hit a creature with an attack                   Trigger: You hit a creature with an attack
Effect: The target hit by the attack take 2d6 damage    Effect: The target hit by the attack take 2d6 extra damage 


So you think Echoing Weapon is pretty worthless then?
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.

Power A                                                                       Power B
Trigger: You hit a creature with an attack                   Trigger: You hit a creature with an attack
Effect: The target hit by the attack take 2d6 damage    Effect: The target hit by the attack take 2d6 extra damage 



I think where I stop agreeing with you is when the trigger changes from "you hit a creature with an attack" to, "you use a sorcerer at-will power." 

If EE required the hit before any of its effect lines, it would be perfectly fine with me to resolve the at-will power separately, and to consider the level 17+ ongoing damage to have come from EE.

Because it does not, AND because the damage is listed as extra damage (and there's nothing in the rules about "extra ongoing damage"), it resolves at the same time as the triggering power,  with all of the effects of EE being passed on to the triggering power for resolution. 

But, for a third time, I feel the need to stress how incredibly unimportant our opinions on the matter are. The OP should just ask his/her DM to allow it, and the DM should say yes, because regardless of rules lawyering, it's an exceedingly reasonable request, and it doesn't break or even hurt anything to have it work in the desired fashion.  My personal preference as someone who's played a fire elementalist would be to just admixture my at-wills anyway (cold for EB, thunder for ignition), but I can see why someone might want to do it to EE instead.  
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