Elemental Escalation (Fire) questions

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Hi,
So when I cast Elemental Bolt,does Elemental Escalation mean that I hit 2 creatures I deal the second creature Bolt damage plus an additional 1d10 or is it just 1d10 damage?

Also,its an encounter power but also a free action and it states I can only use it once per round-so can I use it once per round even though its an encounter power and not an at will?

thanks in advance
1) Each target hit by the Elemental Bolt will take the attack's damage + 1d10 extra damage of the type dealt by the Elemental Bolt

2) At 3rd, 7th, and 13th level, you gain an additional use of the Elemental Escalation's power each encounter, but you can still use the power only once per round.
1) Each target hit by the Elemental Bolt will take the attack's damage + 1d10 extra damage of the type dealt by the Elemental Bolt

2) At 3rd, 7th, and 13th level, you gain an additional use of the Elemental Escalation's power each encounter, but you can still use the power only once per round.

Thank you for the quick reply,on point 1) the Effect line of EE(fire) reads:you can make one additional creature a target of the triggering attack.

Bolt reads Target:One creature hence my confusion.

Point 2) is now clear,thanks.
You're welcome. With Elemental Escalation,  Elemental Bolt's Target line basically become:

  Target: One or two creatures

Elemental Bolt says one creature.  Elemental Escalation says to add an additional target, so you do that, and now there are two creatures targeted.  Note the distance restriction on Elemental Escalation, it's much smaller than Elemental Bolt's range.

All targets of the power that you Escalated take the full damage, the normal plus 1d10.  Can get to be pretty high damage if you use it on some of the burst powers.
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And because elemental escalation is an arcane power, you can admixture another damage type to it.  For example, you add cold to your elemental admixture and you take lasting frost and the whole frostcheese kit.  You get the benefit of cold everytime you use elemental escalation even if your normal attacks do not do cold.
EE doesn't do damage, it can't be admixtured.
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EE doesn't do damage, it can't be admixtured.



So extra damage is not considered damage?

--Each target hit by the attack takes 1d10 extra damage of the type dealt by the triggering attack. In addition, you shift up to half your speed as a free action.
--Level 17: 2d10 extra damage, and ongoing 10 fire damage (save ends).
--Level 27: 3d10 extra damage, and the attack also deals half damage on a miss. 
It can be admixtured regardless of it being able to deal damage. You can admix thunder onto Swordmage Aegis.

Regardless of EE dealing damage, because you added the keyword, the extra damage will be of that type as per the rules for extra damage; the same reason PoS is both Thunder and Lightning (though it's a rather hazy rule)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Regardless of EE dealing damage, because you added the keyword, the extra damage will be of that type


In addition to it's original damage type correct ?
Benefit: Choose one arcane power that you know, and choose acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder. The power now deals that damage type in addition to its normal damage type and gains that keyword.


This benefit does not function for powers that don't deal damage.  No, extra damage is not the power Elemental Escalation dealing the damage, it's an increase to whatever at-will you were using.  That at-will is what is dealing the damage.  Same with Power Strike, it doesn't deal any damage either.

And no, you can't admixture Aegis, because it doesn't do damage either.  Not even Assault.

Powers that don't deal damage don't have damage type keywords.
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Benefit: Choose one arcane power that you know, and choose acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder. The power now deals that damage type in addition to its normal damage type and gains that keyword.


This benefit does not function for powers that don't deal damage.  No, extra damage is not the power Elemental Escalation dealing the damage, it's an increase to whatever at-will you were using.  That at-will is what is dealing the damage.  Same with Power Strike, it doesn't deal any damage either.

And no, you can't admixture Aegis, because it doesn't do damage either.  Not even Assault.

Powers that don't deal damage don't have damage type keywords.



Except that elemental escalation has the "varies" keyword.  And the fire version actually does have a damage type of fire in addition to any other once you hit L17 otherwise it would be ongoing 10 of the same type as the initial damage instead of ongoing 10 fire.

I think that the fact that it has varies indicates that it does have damage type keywords, just that they are the same as the spell you are using it with.  There are other powers that say damage type varies as well that are arcane. 
It shouldn't have "Varies" though, not by the existing keyword rules.  It should be errata'd out, but its presence does not change the fact that it does not do damage.  Even for the fire one, that's still the at-will power dealing the ongoing damage, not EE.
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This benefit does not function for powers that don't deal damage. No, extra damage is not the power Elemental Escalation dealing the damage, it's an increase to whatever at-will you were using.Powers that don't deal damage don't have damage type keywords.


Hellfire TouchSkulker's Venom and a multitude of other extra elemental damage inflicting powers disagree with you.
That people write powers incorrectly does not mean the rules aren't what the rules say they are.
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Lets see.

Bless Weapon does not add radiant because extra damage cannont have a damage keyword.

It is an attack power.  It does have a damage type which is "varies", which is a keyword which is defined in the RC.  Reading the keyword rules, there is nothing that states that it cannot have a damage type.  As a matter of fact, by the keyword rules, EE(fire) should actually have the keywords of "varies" and fire because it adds fire damage to the spell you are casting starting at L17.
It does add radiant, to the attack.  Not to Bless Weapon.
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But there is nothing in the rules that states that an arcane attack power cannot have a damage type and cannot have arcane admixture added to it. 

Please list the rule that states it cannot have a keyword or where in arcane admixture it states it cannot be applied.
That people write powers incorrectly does not mean the rules aren't what the rules say they are.


What rule are you referring to and what this rule say exactly ?
But there is nothing in the rules that states that (insert fallacious statement here) cannot (rest of statement)


Incorrect logical argument, Munchkin fallacy.



Elemental Escalation does not do damage.  The power it modifies does, but elemental escalation does not. 
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That people write powers incorrectly does not mean the rules aren't what the rules say they are.


What rule are you referring to and what this rule say exactly ?


The rules on adding and removing keywords.  Which is explicitly what Arcane Admixture falls under.

I repeat:  a power or effect adding extra damage does not mean that the power adding that damage is dealing the damage.  Extra damage is always dealt by the base attack, always.  "Always in addition to other damage" if you need a direct quote. 
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Mand12, I don't think you understand keywords and how they work. Even utility powers like Onatar's Gift or Blade of Holy Fire that empowers a creature to deal extra fire damage has the fire keyword because they have effect that relate to fire.

Arcane Admixture add the keyword because it says it does.  Keywords are not strickly for when a power deals damage. They are generally present in a power because it deals elemental damage. If a power has a keyword because it has an effect associated to the element, its not necessarly wrong. There's hundreads of powers showing this.

RC 110 Keywords: Keywords help in describing a power's effect.

And they all use it imprecisely.  But that's not even relevant to the question at hand, the presence or absence of damage type keywords in powers that add extra damage means absolutely nothing to the question of what keywords the power they're modifying gain.



Elemental Escalation does not deal damage.  Please explain how you think otherwise.
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Elemental Escalation deals extra damage. That it is added to the attack's damage doesn't change that it comes from Elemental Escalation.
Nothing "deals" extra damage.  Extra damage is always in addition to other damage.  Yes, Elemental Escalation is the reason, but it's not "dealing" damage.
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Nothing "deals" extra damage.


Of course. YOU always deal damage. But through powers. Powers do grant the ability to deal damage or extra damage, so is their nature. Elemental Escalation does.

And Arcane Admixture let Elemental Escalation now deals a damage type in addition to its normal damage type and gains that keyword. 

RC 223 Extra Damage: Many powers and other effects grant the ability to deal extra damage. Extra damage is always in addition to other damage and is of the same type or types as that damage, unless otherwise noted. Because of this rule, an effect that deals no damage cannot deal extra damage. However, a power doesn’t necessarily have to hit a target to deal extra damage—it needs only to deal damage to the target.

No, the power that the extra is being added to is dealing the damage.

Elemental Bolt, or whatever other sorc at-will you're using, that is what is dealing the damage.  Both its normal damage and the extra damage.

Extra damage is by definition a modification of existing damage, dealt by an existing power or effect, and not damage on its own.  It is always part of the existing damage roll, and all of it is dealt by the existing power.
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RC pg 223: Extra damage is always in addition to other damage and is of the same type or types as that damage, unless otherwise noted.

That last little bit states that extra damage can be a different type.  Where does it say in that sentence that you cannot add a damage type to extra damage?

Arcane Admixture
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Arcane Admixture

Paragon Tier Prerequisite: 11th level, any arcane class
Benefit: Choose one arcane power that you know, and choose acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder. The power now deals that damage type in addition to its normal damage type and gains that keyword. Each time you gain a level, you can choose to reassign either the power to which this feat’s effect applies or the additional damage type applied (or both).
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you select this feat, choose a different power. You can’t apply this feat to the same power more than once.



Elemental Escalation
-Is it an arcane power? Yes
-Is it a power that you know? Yes
-Does it have a damage type? Yes, the damage type is the same type as the spell you trigger it on

The power states that the extra damage has a damage type and where it gets it.  I would say that is a specific, explicit statement that it has a damage type.  Arcane admixture allows you to add a damage type to the normal damage type it deals.  There is nothing in arcane admixture that states that the power must do damage.  Only that the power is an arcane power that you know.

For example:
-Elemental Bolt(lightning)
-Arcane admixture:Cold(Elemental Escalation)
--You cast elemental bolt(lightning) and trigger elemental escalation.  Elemental escalation has a damage type, lightning, which, due to arcane admixture, you add cold to it.  Your elemental bolt now does lightning and cold and targets a second target within 5 squares of you.          
always in addition to other damage


How is this unclear?  Elemental Escalation cannot do damage.  It doesn't matter whether you want to change the damage type of the extra damage, the point is you can't do it by admixturing EE because EE doesn't do damage, and admixture only works on things that do damage.  The presence of the damage type keyword in a power that doesn't do damage does not mean that the power does damage.

"unless otherwise noted" means things like "an extra 2 fire damage" on a power that doesn't deal fire damage.  But it's in reference to the actual attack power being used, not the source of the extra damage.

The third question in your list is wrong.  It's not "does it have a damage type" it's "does it deal damage."  Admixture doesn't require the power to have a damage type at all.  What it requires is that the power deal damage, which EE doesn't do.
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EE doesn't do damage, it can't be admixtured.

Technically, that is incorrect.

The only prerequisites for Arcane Admixture are "11th level" and "any arcane class". For the benefit of the feat, you can choose a power that doesn't deal any damage -- the feat just won't have any effect in that case.

Powers that don't deal damage don't have damage type keywords.

As Plaguescarred noted, there are plenty of counterexamples to this.

However, even if a nondamaging power has a damage type keyword, or if a power has an extra keyword as written, it has no impact on the power's damage. (Ex. Blazing starfall always has the "fire" keyword, even if it's used without the rider.)

Elemental Escalation cannot do damage.

I agree.

Elemental escalation modifies the triggering at-will power by giving it an extra target and making it do extra damage. The elemental escalation power itself does not deal any damage, and is not affected by Arcane Admixture.

(For comparison, another power that works similarly is promise of storm.)
EE doesn't do damage, it can't be admixtured.

Technically, that is incorrect.

The only prerequisites for Arcane Admixture are "11th level" and "any arcane class". For the benefit of the feat, you can choose a power that doesn't deal any damage -- the feat just won't have any effect in that case.


Didn't say anythign about prerequisites, I said it can't be admixtured.
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Even if Elemental Escalation would deal no damage, i'd say it still can be admixtured and gain the associated keyword, say thunder for exemple, simply because Arcane Admixture says the power gain the keyword without necessarly needing to deal damage. 

And there could still be benefits for using an elemental power for exemple how thunder power benefit from Solid Sound.
Even if Elemental Escalation would deal no damage, i'd say it still can be admixtured and gain the associated keyword, say thunder for exemple, simply because Arcane Admixture says the power gain the keyword without necessarly needing to deal damage.

Yes, I agree. If you take Arcane Admixture and select a power that doesn't deal damage, the power will still gain the keyword (as noted in the feat), even though there will be no functional change in the power.

Even if Elemental Escalation would deal no damage, i'd say it still can be admixtured and gain the associated keyword, say thunder for exemple, simply because Arcane Admixture says the power gain the keyword without necessarly needing to deal damage. 

And there could still be benefits for using an elemental power for exemple how thunder power benefit from Solid Sound.



Yes, damage type keywords on powers that don't deal damage can and do interact with effects like Solid Sound, that's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that attempting to admix Thunder into Elemental Escalation wouldn't allow the attack to gain the Thunder keyword, even if you assume that you can admix EE in the first place.

The Thunder keyword on EE would gain you the benefit of Solid Sound, but it wouldn't gain you the benefit of Mark of Storm.
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Even if Elemental Escalation would deal no damage, i'd say it still can be admixtured and gain the associated keyword, say thunder for exemple, simply because Arcane Admixture says the power gain the keyword without necessarly needing to deal damage. 

And there could still be benefits for using an elemental power for exemple how thunder power benefit from Solid Sound.



Yes, damage type keywords on powers that don't deal damage can and do interact with effects like Solid Sound, that's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that attempting to admix Thunder into Elemental Escalation wouldn't allow the attack to gain the Thunder keyword, even if you assume that you can admix EE in the first place.

The Thunder keyword on EE would gain you the benefit of Solid Sound, but it wouldn't gain you the benefit of Mark of Storm.



So the extra damage, which now has thunder added as a damage type, would not qualify for mark of storm even though you "hit with a power that deals thunder/lightning?"

You stated that the original power does the damage.  I completely agree.  However, the extra damage from elemental escalation does have a damage type, and specfically has a damage keyword which is "varies", which is explicitly stated as being the same as the original power.  Arcane admixture would add another type to that because it says it does.  So the extra damage now has the original type in additon too the type from arcane admixture.

There is another arcane encounter attack power that deals extra damage and has a damage keyword.  Echoing weapon.  Would you say that cannot be affected by arcane admixture as well?
No, because adding the Thunder keyword to Elemental Escalation doesn't change the damage, because EE doesn't deal damage.

Yes, echoing weapon cannot be admixed either.  Because admixture doesn't actually do anything if the power doesn't deal damage.

You can't admix Hypnotism, for the same reason.  Same situation.  That the effect that the power is doing ends up in another power dealing damage is irrelevant - the power that you are attempting to admix doesn't do any damage.
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Yes, echoing weapon cannot be admixed either.  Because admixture doesn't actually do anything if the power doesn't deal damage.


No you can Arcane Admixture ANY arcane powers attack or utility and doing so always do something.

It doesn't matter if the power doesn't do damage. It will gain the keyword regardless. You can even admixture Majestic Word if you want.
Yes, echoing weapon cannot be admixed either.  Because admixture doesn't actually do anything if the power doesn't deal damage.


No you can Arcane Admixture ANY arcane powers attack or utility and doing so always do something.

It doesn't matter if the power doesn't do damage. It will gain the keyword regardless.



But gaining that keyword doesn't mean that the power that is gaining extra damage from the admixed power also gains that keyword, or that the damage type of that extra damage changes.

Example:

I'm a level 1 fire elementalist.  RETH! RETH! RETH!

I take Admixture, and apply it to EE as you suggest, adding Thunder.

When I use Elemental Bolt, and also use EE on that, my damage on a hit is 1d12+1d10+1d6 fire damage.  There is no thunder damage.
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That is another question, we must first settle that any arcane power can be admixtured and gain the associated keyword.

The rest will depend if you think extra damage powers are powers that have a damage type or not. I say its irrevelant if this extra damage is dealt by the extra damage power or the damaging attack power. Its about dealing a damage type, not dealing damage. So the real question is:

Is an extra damage power deals a damage type ? If yes, it can now deal an additional damage type in addition to its normal damage type. I'd say a power that deal extra fire damage is a power that deals a damage type. And so Arcane Admixture can have it deal an additional damage type in addition to its fire damage type 

Arcane Admixture: Choose one arcane power that you know, and choose acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder. The power now deals that damage type in addition to its normal damage type and gains that keyword.


But gaining that keyword doesn't mean that the power that is gaining extra damage from the admixed power also gains that keyword, or that the damage type of that extra damage changes.

Example:

I'm a level 1 fire elementalist.  RETH! RETH! RETH!

I take Admixture, and apply it to EE as you suggest, adding Thunder.

When I use Elemental Bolt, and also use EE on that, my damage on a hit is 1d12+1d10+1d6 fire damage.  There is no thunder damage.



Ok.  First sentence is wrong or gloves of eldritch admixture and mindbite scorn would not had acid/cold/fire and psychic damage respectively to the powers you add warlock's curse to.  Warlock's curse is extra damage that is untyped.  You are using a power to add a damage keyword to extra damage.  According to your ruling, you cannot add damage keywords to extra damage because they do no damage.  So you just broke gloves of eldritch admixture.

Your example doesn't work because you cannot take arcane admixture at L1.  EE deals fire damage because that is what the power says it does.  Arcane admixture adds a damage type to a type the power already does.  That is all the feat does.  So in the example you gave, assuming you could take it at L1, you would be doing 1d12(fire)+1d6(fire)+1d10(fire/thunder, from EE which also has the thunder keyword).

Arcane admixture adds a damage type to an arcane power that has a damage type because that is what the feat says it does.  It says nothing about the power needing to deal damage.  Because it does not say it needs to deal damage then it does not.  The feat does what it says.
When you deal extra damage as a result of your Warlock’s Curse, you can choose that damage to be acid, cold, or fire (or leave it untyped).

This works just fine.  You're not changing what your Warlock's Curse does ahead of time, as Arcane Admixture would, but rather when you deal it, which is when you hit with another power, and that power is dealing the damage, which you're now changing.  And since you're changing the damage type that the base power is dealing, you change that power's keywords as per the "Adding and removing keywords" rules.

Perfectly fine, and not at all the same situation. 


"EE deals fire damage because that is what the power says it does."  NO.  NO NO NO.  That is NOT what the power says it does.  Extra damage is not the same thing as damage.  A power that causes extra damage does not deal damage.  I cannot emphasize more strongly how wrong your initial premise is, and that faulty premise is the entire foundation for your argument.  To make it absolutely, crystal clear:

Each target hit by the attack takes 1d10 extra damage of the type dealt by the triggering attack.
Each target hit by the attack takes 1d10 damage of the type dealt by the triggering attack.

These are not the same thing.  In the first case, it is the base power that is dealing the damage.  In the second case, it would be EE dealing the damage. 

"Extra damage" is a rules construct, not just English wording.  "Extra damage" is not the same thing as "damage" in the same way that "feat bonus" is not the same thing as "bonus that comes from a feat"



And really?  You're nitpicking the Paragon requirement?  Are you kidding?
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