Thoughts on HP abstraction

I just had an interesting thought about HP abstraction that I would like to share and get your guys’ thoughts on the matter.

So in Next, the idea is the first 50% of HP are your morale and energy expenditure to avoid attacks. The latter 50% is your ability to soak up the actual damage and this is when the physical wounds begin to appear.

Both of these concepts are encapsulated in the one in the form HP and rolling your HD/HS regenerates both. Personally, this got under my skin a lot in 4e. Especially the vast pools of healing surges and the abstraction of Warlord healing physically closing wounds.

What if these two concepts were split up? Maybe into something I will call Energy and Wounds, each of which is 50% of your total HP (names are irrelevant, I’m just using them to describe the two discrete concepts).

Energy encompasses things like your morale and regenerates completely in every short rest as you catch your breath. It can be regenerated during combat from things like Warlords powers and Second Wind type things (neither of which are really present in Next so it's more of a "if they were...")

Wounds on the other hand require a lot more time to heal (naturally) or cleric/divine healing (maybe divine healing affects both, I haven’t decided… ) . Either way, when you start taking wounds you should be worried.

Damage from enemies first hits your Energy, as you get more tired and shaken. Once your Energy is depleted, you start taking Wounds. You can’t easily recover Wounds in between encounters, as mentioned.

For me, this system functions similarly to Shield vs Hull damage from almost any Sci Fi space ship game ever. It also reduces the abstraction of healing surge and Warlord healing type mechanics.

The downside is a second statistic to track, but I feel it is no more difficult than tracking temporary HP. But yeah, it is added complexity which may be unwanted.

What this does achieve is a means to limit your adventure day when you get close to running out of Wounds, rather than when you get low on HD/HS.

Since you still, abstractly, have the same amount of total HP (Energy and Wounds combined) tough encounters are still just as lethal but reduces the effect of a lot of easy encounters slowly wearing the players HP down. Since recovering wounds is difficult, it makes the game feel more lethal and gritty, but since Energy recovers freely it means the party can press one.

Thoughts?

[Edit: thought I'd add, I'd see this as an optional rules module rather than Core]

Warlords didn't close wounds.  Loss of HP does not automatically mean physical injury, and regaining of HP does not mean physical injuries go away.  How this fallacy continues, I have no idea.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Warlords didn't close wounds.  Loss of HP does not automatically mean physical injury, and regaining of HP does not mean physical injuries go away.  How this fallacy continues, I have no idea.



Probably because a warlord can heal an unconscious, dying, deaf and blind ally from across the room.  Makes it hard to really see what they are doing as anything other than magical healing.

If their inspirational healing was limited to conscious targets who could actually benefit from being inspired it would make them more logical.

Carl
This character or monster's hitpoints was a number.  Now it's a different number.
Hit Points have never meant anything other than a get-dead-o-meter.
Warlords didn't close wounds.  Loss of HP does not automatically mean physical injury, and regaining of HP does not mean physical injuries go away.  How this fallacy continues, I have no idea.



Probably because a warlord can heal an unconscious, dying, deaf and blind ally from across the room.  Makes it hard to really see what they are doing as anything other than magical healing.

If their inspirational healing was limited to conscious targets who could actually benefit from being inspired it would make them more logical.

Carl



A General awakened a man from out of his coma in real life by reciting their companies battle cry/motto...  we hear and interact with stuff when unconcious.

I have yet to see the supposed deaf and blind ally actually happen.... so we worry about extreme corner cases and make them an ewar battle cry.

With Carl the reasonable banging the drums. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Warlords didn't close wounds.  Loss of HP does not automatically mean physical injury, and regaining of HP does not mean physical injuries go away.  How this fallacy continues, I have no idea.



Probably because a warlord can heal an unconscious, dying, deaf and blind ally from across the room.  Makes it hard to really see what they are doing as anything other than magical healing.

If their inspirational healing was limited to conscious targets who could actually benefit from being inspired it would make them more logical.

Carl



A General awakened a man from out of his coma in real life by reciting their companies battle cry/motto...  we hear and interact with stuff when unconcious.

I have yet to see the supposed deaf and blind ally actually happen.... so we worry about extreme corner cases and make them an ewar battle cry.

With Carl the reasonable banging the drums. 



But if he is deaf and blind - would the power work?  Sounds like a 'reasonable' question to me - not a corner case at all.  Powers that do both exist.  Is there any question in your mind what the rules indicate would happen in that case? 

For that matter - if it did interfere with the power, that would make it a valid tactic to use against the party/ warlord.  Sounds like a perfect case of the 'fluff' being ignored because the mechanics are what really matter (in 4e).
  
  In an AD&D-style world, the fluff would matter.  The warlord's ability would require that the target be able to see/ hear him - but it would work in a null magic zone; the cleric's ability would work whether or not the target was able to see/ hear him- but a null magic zone would block it.

What some call 'fluff' is a description of what is happening in the world - and it has consequences.


Calling it a 'corner case' doesn't change the illogic in the rules.


It just raises a smoke screan you can try to hide behind.

Carl
Warlords didn't close wounds.  Loss of HP does not automatically mean physical injury, and regaining of HP does not mean physical injuries go away.  How this fallacy continues, I have no idea.



Probably because a warlord can heal an unconscious, dying, deaf and blind ally from across the room.  Makes it hard to really see what they are doing as anything other than magical healing.

If their inspirational healing was limited to conscious targets who could actually benefit from being inspired it would make them more logical.

Carl



A General awakened a man from out of his coma in real life by reciting their companies battle cry/motto...  we hear and interact with stuff when unconcious.

I have yet to see the supposed deaf and blind ally actually happen.... so we worry about extreme corner cases and make them an ewar battle cry.

With Carl the reasonable banging the drums. 



But if he is deaf and blind - would the power work?  
Carl


Very very rare situations blown out of all proportion are exactly corner cases the game has degrees of simplicity that are required ... you can paste on hundreds of little if then clauses and make the game utterly unmanageable to deal with it or accept that the game is broad brush strokes.


  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Blindness for the protagonist is almost always of the "blood in the eyes" sort and both are very temporary conditions. If a DM wanted to put a simple restriction that the Warlord required line of sight or hearing for there inspiration to work it would be approximately the same ball park as saying the cleric couldnt do it in hand cuffs (the game says wing it).

Just as when I have a player who wants to use his at-will ice spell to put a layer of ice on the water to walk across a lake... wing it. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Warlords didn't close wounds.  Loss of HP does not automatically mean physical injury, and regaining of HP does not mean physical injuries go away.  How this fallacy continues, I have no idea.



Probably because a warlord can heal an unconscious, dying, deaf and blind ally from across the room.  Makes it hard to really see what they are doing as anything other than magical healing.

If their inspirational healing was limited to conscious targets who could actually benefit from being inspired it would make them more logical.

Carl



A General awakened a man from out of his coma in real life by reciting their companies battle cry/motto...  we hear and interact with stuff when unconcious.

I have yet to see the supposed deaf and blind ally actually happen.... so we worry about extreme corner cases and make them an ewar battle cry.

With Carl the reasonable banging the drums. 



But if he is deaf and blind - would the power work?  
Carl


Very very rare situations blown out of all proportion are exactly corner cases the game has degrees of simplicity that are required ... you can paste on hundreds of little if then clauses and make the game utterly unmanageable to deal with it or accept that the game is broad brush strokes.




The General awakening the comatose companion is precisely the rare corner case; that kind of thing fails to work much more often than it actually works. The game of broad brush strokes would have to ignore these corner cases as rules examples.
Warlords didn't close wounds.  Loss of HP does not automatically mean physical injury, and regaining of HP does not mean physical injuries go away.  How this fallacy continues, I have no idea.



Probably because a warlord can heal an unconscious, dying, deaf and blind ally from across the room.  Makes it hard to really see what they are doing as anything other than magical healing.

If their inspirational healing was limited to conscious targets who could actually benefit from being inspired it would make them more logical.

Carl



A General awakened a man from out of his coma in real life by reciting their companies battle cry/motto...  we hear and interact with stuff when unconcious.

I have yet to see the supposed deaf and blind ally actually happen.... so we worry about extreme corner cases and make them an ewar battle cry.

With Carl the reasonable banging the drums. 



But if he is deaf and blind - would the power work?  
Carl


Very very rare situations blown out of all proportion are exactly corner cases the game has degrees of simplicity that are required ... you can paste on hundreds of little if then clauses and make the game utterly unmanageable to deal with it or accept that the game is broad brush strokes.




The General awakening the comatose companion is precisely the rare corner case;



Reality is unrealistic.  Dont come back to me with your realism arguments if you are going to pull that hoo hah. It pretty much undermines the core of your jive. (simpler rules resulting from ignoring the real corner cases ... vs... more complex rules by chasing after another set of edge cases).
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 


A General awakened a man from out of his coma in real life by reciting their companies battle cry/motto...  we hear and interact with stuff when unconcious.



As we all know, there are no doctors in military hospitals, only generals shouting: "C'mon boys, that bullet in your chest is no big deal! Man up soldier and get back to battle".

So many things become easier when you seperate health from hit points...
As a module, like the WP/VP system, I could get behind this. For standard heroic dungeon crawl games, I think it's unneccessary. That's the beauty of pnp rpgs.
Poe's Law is alive and well. Emerikol is right*

As a module, like the WP/VP system, I could get behind this. For standard heroic dungeon crawl games, I think it's unneccessary. That's the beauty of pnp rpgs.


I see so many benefits, I just don't understand why they don't use it.



  • Martial Healing.

  • Spells such as Sleep or Hold Person and attacks like Bull Rush can deal "damage" without breaking immersion

  • Jumping off a cliff, swimming in lava/acid and other silly things you can do with a huge bag of hit points isn't possible anymore

  • You can introduce thresholds (like the bloodied value on Health) to create crippling injuries

  • Mundane items such as Flasks of Oil or Acid are still usable at higher levels (4th edition version was horrible). If you're burning or covered in acid, it goes straight to your Health.

  • Slitting someone's throat during his sleep actually kills the guy.

  • Poisons are dangerous at all levels.

  • And so many more.


It adds a very interesting extra layer of realism without adding too much complexity to the game. It also leaves room for heroic battles because unlike GURPS, you still have Hit Points that absorbs most of the damage you take while in combat.

In my opinion, if Martial/Morale Healing doesn't work, then Divine Magic healing shouldn't work too, as it ruin my verisimilitude, i won't elaborate on why, because it would get controvertial.
In my opinion, if Martial/Morale Healing doesn't work, then Divine Magic healing shouldn't work too, as it ruin my verisimilitude, i won't elaborate on why, because it would get controvertial.



You're just playing the devil's advocate. Divine healing is not faith healing. Whether you believe in god and faith healing is irrelevant in D&D. In D&D, gods exist and have magic. At least in the default settings. Clerics shouldn't have spellls at all in a settings where gods don't exist.
Warlords didn't close wounds.  Loss of HP does not automatically mean physical injury, and regaining of HP does not mean physical injuries go away.  How this fallacy continues, I have no idea.



Probably because a warlord can heal an unconscious, dying, deaf and blind ally from across the room.  Makes it hard to really see what they are doing as anything other than magical healing.

If their inspirational healing was limited to conscious targets who could actually benefit from being inspired it would make them more logical.

Carl



A General awakened a man from out of his coma in real life by reciting their companies battle cry/motto...  we hear and interact with stuff when unconcious.

I have yet to see the supposed deaf and blind ally actually happen.... so we worry about extreme corner cases and make them an ewar battle cry.

With Carl the reasonable banging the drums. 



But if he is deaf and blind - would the power work?  
Carl


Very very rare situations blown out of all proportion are exactly corner cases the game has degrees of simplicity that are required ... you can paste on hundreds of little if then clauses and make the game utterly unmanageable to deal with it or accept that the game is broad brush strokes.




The General awakening the comatose companion is precisely the rare corner case;



Reality is unrealistic.  Dont come back to me with your realism arguments if you are going to pull that hoo hah. It pretty much undermines the core of your jive. (simpler rules resulting from ignoring the real corner cases ... vs... more complex rules by chasing after another set of edge cases).


Don't tell me that the game is broad brush strokes and then cherry pick specific corner cases to support your interpretation of specific rules.
 Having my own corner case of walking my bleeding friend to the hospital by threatening to tell his mother, I have no problem with warlord inspirational healing.

How about have the realism restrictions come off at certain levels.

At 5, it works on the deaf or blind.

At 10, it works on the unconscious

At 20, it works on the dead. "I DON'T REMEMBER GIVING YOU PERMISSION TO DIE! INSUBORDINATION! GIT UP!"

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!


A General awakened a man from out of his coma in real life by reciting their companies battle cry/motto...  we hear and interact with stuff when unconcious.



As we all know, there are no doctors in military hospitals, only generals shouting: "C'mon boys, that bullet in your chest is no big deal! Man up soldier and get back to battle".

So many things become easier when you seperate health from hit points...



Well sure making sure hit points mean fightin on and putting in distinctive wounds has been my argument since forever .. but this element of the argument was in favor of not worrying about unconcious hero hearing the bards magic music and the warlords battle cry and being able to influence them.

Because unconcious even when seemingly beyond the reach of science does not equal gone it may be just hard to reach.

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

 

At 20, it works on the dead. "I DON'T REMEMBER GIVING YOU PERMISSION TO DIE! INSUBORDINATION! GIT UP!"



Aragorn did that in mass scale so to speak.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

In my opinion, if Martial/Morale Healing doesn't work, then Divine Magic healing shouldn't work too, as it ruin my verisimilitude, i won't elaborate on why, because it would get controvertial.



You're just playing the devil's advocate. Divine healing is not faith healing.  



Why not... let in combat healing be just that... and maybe the cheap energy drink potions

Allow ritualized true healing, and some higher healing coma inducing potions (so they are much like drinkable rituals).
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

In my opinion, if Martial/Morale Healing doesn't work, then Divine Magic healing shouldn't work too, as it ruin my verisimilitude, i won't elaborate on why, because it would get controvertial.



You're just playing the devil's advocate. Divine healing is not faith healing.  



Why not... let in combat healing be just that... and maybe the cheap energy drink potions

Allow ritualized true healing, and some higher healing coma inducing potions (so they are much like drinkable rituals).



I would be fine with all of this, but they need to remove physical injuries from the whole hit point abstraction otherwise there are wierd interactions with faith healing or martial healing.

But if you do that, you need to include something to modelize the wounding part. This could be anything really: a health score, a wound system where you get penalities for being wounded, just about anything would work.
I like the idea of Warlord healing working in a null-magic zone but not working on unconscious/blind & deaf and Cleric healing working on unconcious/blind & deaf but not in a null-magic zone. And I don't think this is too complicated to codify. Most of the time they both work, but some of the time only one works. It is very similar to line-of-sight and line-of-effect rules. You can see through an invisble wall, but you can't shoot an arrow through it. And you can shoot an arrow through a cloud of darkness but you can't see through it. And I would not call any of these corner cases. People fall unconscious all the time.

Now about the OP's idea. I like it but I think it has some problems, first and foremost that it asks for TOO MUCH of a change. Even though HP isn't really a measure of health or wounds, a lot of people see it that way and, to use your shield/hull analogy, I don't think people will like the idea of their "hull" only being half of their total health. But I like the idea and have thought of similar ideas before but with less dramatic changes.

I would prefer to use the Temporary HP system and simply have characters gain some amount of Temp HP during a short or long rest. This amount could be based on Con and/or level and would allow for some out of combat healing without a healer or healing kits.


Here is a quick idea on how to implement it that isn't too far off of how HP and Healing currently work.

Starting HP = Max Hit Die (Same as now but without Con Mod)
Each level increase HP by rolling one Hit Die (Same as now but without Con Mod)

After a short or long rest, gain Temporary Hit Points equal to [Con Mod] x [Level].

With this system a character would have the exact same total HP (HP+Temp HP) as they do now, so big fights would be equally as leathal. But now they can recover some Temp HP during rests.



 

I've played a few systems that have a fatigue mechanic sorta like what you're talking about and it's not bad. I think the brick wall we're hitting is we want it to feel like D&D and all that lovely stuff.


I personally never bought the whole "brighten your morale = more hp" thing. I thought it was stupid from day 1 of 4e and I still think it's stupid. When DMing 5e, I totally ignored their attempt to abstract hp from bodily harm. I know it's unrealistic but it's expedient and I honestly think any attempt to make hp anything else is just creating work for the sake of having work. I've never struggled with describing hp loss as bodily harm and I really don't see what the fuss is about. Any published hp abstraction I will ignore and call whatever class that's doing the healing as some kind of magic that's invoked in whatever flavour suits.



But if I was to run with it, just for the sake of discussion, I'd probably just keep it a big pool and let the needs of the story dictate whether the damage is physical or not. I'd probably favour a solution that kept hp as a single expression because it's easier and just describe damage in ways that are appropriate to the situation.


The temp hp thing could work if that's your bent. It isn't mine but I could see that happening.


I've seen a split health system work and I know it could work here, but I'd not be happy if it was brought into D&D as anything but a house ruled variant.

I like the idea of Warlord healing working in a null-magic zone but not working on unconscious/blind & deaf and Cleric healing working on unconcious/blind & deaf but not in a null-magic zone. And I don't think this is too complicated to codify. Most of the time they both work, but some of the time only one works.

I could get behind this, except that it implies the existence of null-magic zones.  And null-magic zones, while flavorful as hell, are just huge pains to run.  I think they need to stay gone.

Still, the spirit of the thing is very valid.  Anything that messes with magic in some fashion affects the cleric, but not the warlord.  Fair and flavorful.

Oh, and we should note that the spell healing word in the playtest packet specifically requires that the target be able to hear you.  So WotC is definitely thinking along these verisimilitude lines.
I think the best solutions is to give a list of class features and let DMs ban whichever inspirations/words/tactics/shouts/boasts they which.

So a warlord could have 3 of them.

Inspiring Word: Heal 2d8 HP
Motivating Word: Target gain 2d8 Temporary HP
Stimulating Word: Target gets 1d8 damage reduction.

The DM can ban inspiration warlord if morale healing bothers him or her.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

 
Oh, and we should note that the spell healing word in the playtest packet specifically requires that the target be able to hear you.  So WotC is definitely thinking along these verisimilitude lines.


Which is ok as long as things arent too bogged down with extreme amounts of it.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I think the best solutions is to give a list of class features and let DMs ban whichever inspirations/words/tactics/shouts/boasts they which. So a warlord could have 3 of them. Inspiring Word: Heal 2d8 HP Motivating Word: Target gain 2d8 Temporary HP Stimulating Word: Target gets 1d8 damage reduction. The DM can ban inspiration warlord if morale healing bothers him or her.



Temp hit points havent even seen them (its at a higher gradient of detail than the core it seems)


  • Giving them to multiple allies and in general "more" in a radius could make up for them having to be pre-emptive 

  • can temporary hit points temporarily awaken the fallen? 

  • They are less useful for the business day this might require you have inspiration as more of an encounter power and let the healer do his as daily.


  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

This character or monster's hitpoints was a number.  Now it's a different number.
Hit Points have never meant anything other than a get-dead-o-meter.



Get-Dead-O-Meter. Heh. I like that. I think I'll add that to my D&D vocabulary, right next to "Jerrying," "Snatchy Bite-Bite," and "Wheaton's Vicious [....]punch."

Anyway, yeah. The way I play, HP are hard enough to keep track of. I see the value of it as a module, though. Kind of like Health and Stamina. A lot of games have that. The sticky part is deciding which is affected by what. Psychic I can see as affecting stamina first, but a sword does not affect your energy levels. You may not be able to USE your energy much without, say, your left leg, but you still have it. Necrotic (radiant for undead) would affectboth evenly, I think, and then you'd have to decide where the extra point goes if damage is odd. And what if your health is zero, but you have tons of energy? ... My head hurts now. I'll stick with HP. But if it works for you, cool. Even if it isn't presented as a module, it should be no sweat to houserule.

Something I like above so many other things in D&DN: Modularity encourages houseruling. Don't have a module for what you want? Make one up.
"Our idea of rules modules has a wide range of scope; sometimes, our rules modules might just be small tweaks and variant rules, while other times they could be large-scale changes and entirely new subsystems. We want people to make the game their own, and that means provided a whole array of possibilities based on what you, the players, tell us that you want." -D&DNext Q&A Blog, 8/29/12, Answer #3.
I think people are making a mistake regarding how HP are described.

Let's take a boxing match as an example.
Two boxers keep on hitting eachother.  Many of the hits land and hit faces, stomaches, arms etc. It hurts, there is pain involved, but there is no bruising or cuts.
Time goes on, the hits get harder, the boxers more tired, the pain harder to ignore.  Now you start to see some split lips, black eyes etc.
Eventually, you have a KO.

In the D&D world, that KO can be death, dismemberment, or any other "life threatening injury".

Yes you don't get cuts and scrapes until 50% hp, but that doesn't mean that only luck and endurance is being hit or hurt during the first 50%. 
This character or monster's hitpoints was a number.  Now it's a different number.

Hit Points have never meant anything other than a get-dead-o-meter.



This.  Anything else regarding hitpoint is all fluff.  Describe you wounds, or lack there of, as you like.  Just don't overcomplicate it for those of us who don't need ridiculous details.  "Bloodied" is just a way of saying the character or monster is at 1/2 or less of normal max HP, without going out of game and announcing to the other player that you character is at 6 out of 20 HP and could use some healing.  "Bob II is reeling from that blow and is looking fairly bloodied"


What if it was all psychic damage that Bob II took?  "Bob II is reeling from that blow and is looking fairly bloodied" 


See, it's just a number.  If you want to get all detailed, you might as well have a bunch of HP scales versus different damage type.  That's not a game I want to play.  


TjD

I think people are making a mistake regarding how HP are described.

Let's take a boxing match as an example.
Two boxers keep on hitting eachother.  Many of the hits land and hit faces, stomaches, arms etc. It hurts, there is pain involved, but there is no bruising or cuts.
Time goes on, the hits get harder, the boxers more tired, the pain harder to ignore.  Now you start to see some split lips, black eyes etc.
Eventually, you have a KO.

In the D&D world, that KO can be death, dismemberment, or any other "life threatening injury".

Yes you don't get cuts and scrapes until 50% hp, but that doesn't mean that only luck and endurance is being hit or hurt during the first 50%. 



But boxer's take short rests in between rounds to regain energy (HP in your analogy) without the use of magic. I think a short rest should grant some amount of healing. The only reason I suggest Temp HP is so people don't see "Heal Con Mod HP during a short rest" and think, "O I get 2 HP every ten minutes, lets just rest an hour." You could make it healing instead of Temp HP, you would just have to make the rules clear you can't gain more HP by making mutiple short rests in a row.
I wonder if there would be less contention over the "bloodied" concept if it was refferred to as "winded" or "fatigued" instead of "bloodied".

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I wonder if there would be less contention over the "bloodied" concept if it was refferred to as "winded" or "fatigued" instead of "bloodied".



If it looks like 4E and acts like 4E, many people will rage quit it even if it is a great idea.
I wonder if there would be less contention over the "bloodied" concept if it was refferred to as "winded" or "fatigued" instead of "bloodied".



Definately.  Most people get used to 'bloodied' - but there is often a moment when you first hear of the concept when you have to ask "Just how is that skeleton 'bloodied' after all".


In fact - we had just that moment last week at our table.  Most of us have played together with both 3.5 and 4E, but we have a couple of players who actually started with 5E.  Because most of us know the 4E conventions, we often use them as references - and one of the players referred to a skeleton being 'bloodied' and after asking what that meant, one of the new players asked exactly that question.

It's not an obstacle to the concept being useful - but it does create a moment of disconnect when it is used in reference to non-living creatures. 

But I'm not really sure what the better term would be 'fatigued' would be a problem for constructs, for example.

The best answer may just be 'injured'.

Carl
I wonder if there would be less contention over the "bloodied" concept if it was refferred to as "winded" or "fatigued" instead of "bloodied".



Definately.  Most people get used to 'bloodied' - but there is often a moment when you first hear of the concept when you have to ask "Just how is that skeleton 'bloodied' after all".
 
l



His bones seem loser and rattle more ... I prefer he has started to loose some real pieces.

Or he the green glow around the thing seems a touch faded like the enchantement is failing.
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Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

But I'm not really sure what the better term would be 'fatigued' would be a problem for constructs, for example.
Carl

Fatigue actually works perfectly fine. Have you heard of metal getting "fatigued"? It's used in engineering IIRC.

material fatigue

There ya go

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Less Death More Danger!

www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d...

Article includes an injury deck, which of course could be replaced with a d20 table.

This is going to be a love or hate it thing, so needs to be an optional module.
 
I wonder if there would be less contention over the "bloodied" concept if it was refferred to as "winded" or "fatigued" instead of "bloodied".



Definately.  Most people get used to 'bloodied' - but there is often a moment when you first hear of the concept when you have to ask "Just how is that skeleton 'bloodied' after all".
 
l



His bones seem loser and rattle more ... I prefer he has started to loose some real pieces.

Or he the green glow around the thing seems a touch faded like the enchantement is failing.



The concept isn't the problem.  But the term is illogical.  He doesn't have any blood at all - how is he bloodied.

Carl
Warlords didn't close wounds.  Loss of HP does not automatically mean physical injury, and regaining of HP does not mean physical injuries go away.  How this fallacy continues, I have no idea.



Please quote me the name of the Logical Fallacy that he was guilty of with his suggestion on how to change hit points.  I didn't know that one.  Is it Argument from Abstraction?  Reducto Hit Pointo?
The concept isn't the problem.  But the term is illogical.  He doesn't have any blood at all - how is he bloodied.

Carl

Yeah, definately think "fatigued" is the better term. Granted, it had a different usage in previous edtions (along with exhausted), but I think the term can be accurately applied in most circumstances. It certainly wouldn't be too applicable to creatures like water and air elementals (can either really be "bloodied"?), and it would a bit comical for blood golems and the like (they always start out "bloodied" ). But for the most part, I thikn fatigued is just a better all-around term to describe a creature at or below half HP.

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Warlords didn't close wounds.  Loss of HP does not automatically mean physical injury, and regaining of HP does not mean physical injuries go away.  How this fallacy continues, I have no idea.



Probably because a warlord can heal an unconscious, dying, deaf and blind ally from across the room.  Makes it hard to really see what they are doing as anything other than magical healing.

If their inspirational healing was limited to conscious targets who could actually benefit from being inspired it would make them more logical.

Carl



A General awakened a man from out of his coma in real life by reciting their companies battle cry/motto...  we hear and interact with stuff when unconcious.

I have yet to see the supposed deaf and blind ally actually happen.... so we worry about extreme corner cases and make them an ewar battle cry.

With Carl the reasonable banging the drums. 



But if he is deaf and blind - would the power work?  
Carl


Very very rare situations blown out of all proportion are exactly corner cases the game has degrees of simplicity that are required ... you can paste on hundreds of little if then clauses and make the game utterly unmanageable to deal with it or accept that the game is broad brush strokes.




The General awakening the comatose companion is precisely the rare corner case;



Reality is unrealistic.  Dont come back to me with your realism arguments if you are going to pull that hoo hah. It pretty much undermines the core of your jive. (simpler rules resulting from ignoring the real corner cases ... vs... more complex rules by chasing after another set of edge cases).


Don't tell me that the game is broad brush strokes and then cherry pick specific corner cases to support your interpretation of specific rules.


... Lets look out side of reality and see oh my maybe that is a corner case in reality but a trope of fantasy and fiction...  the number of movies with somebody crying over somebody else or otherwise waking them from a seeming death or similarly inspiring them to keep on fighting is off the charts.
The blinded deaf unconcious dude ... is just a corner case ... and a pissy little example from an ewar handbook.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."