Boseiju and suspend

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on a recent Cranial Insertion article, there was a question that i didn't understand. here it is:

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Q: When I use mana from <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Boseiju,%20Who%20Shelters%20All" rel="nofollow">Boseiju, Who Shelters All</a> to pay the suspend cost of <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arc%20Blade" rel="nofollow">Arc Blade</a>, does it make Arc Blade uncounterable?

A: Boseiju's ability only makes a spell uncounterable if you use the mana to cast a spell, and suspending isn't casting. You will eventually cast the spell when the last time counter comes off, but at that point you're casting it without paying its mana cost. So you're not spending any mana to cast it, let alone mana from Boseiju, and it won't get the uncounterable bonus.
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i'm confused because the article says that Boseiju only helps if you use its mana to /cast/ a spell; but the oracle wording says "If that mana is spent on an instant or sorcery spell" instead of something like "If that mana is used to cast an instant or sorcery spell." In addition, there are rulings on the gatherer page that make it sound like Boseiju helps when using mana on an instant or sorcery spell in ways other than casting it:

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The spell can't be countered if the mana produced by Boseiju is spent to cover any cost of the spell, even an additional cost such as a splice cost. This is true even if you pay an additional cost while casting a spell "without paying its mana cost."
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is the cranial insertion article correct in its answer? if so, could someone help me understand why, given the points i brought up? thanks. 
Added to my answer.
Ah shoot! Overwrote my answer by accident! Will repost it.
when you suspend the Arc Blade you are not spending mana on an "instant or sorcery spell", you are spending it on an ability that exiles an "instant or sorcery card"

as such Boseiju has no interaction with it
proud member of the 2011 community team
Suspend is a collection of abilities. If you spent the mana on suspend, you spent the mana on an ability of a card, not a spell. No spell exists until you cast the card when you remove the last counter.
702.60a Suspend is a keyword that represents three abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the card with suspend is in a player’s hand. The second and third are triggered abilities that function in the exile zone. “Suspend N—[cost]” means “If you could begin to cast this card by putting it onto the stack from your hand, you may pay [cost] and exile it with N time counters on it. This action doesn’t use the stack,” and “At the beginning of your upkeep, if this card is suspended, remove a time counter from it,” and “When the last time counter is removed from this card, if it’s exiled, play it without paying its mana cost if able. If you can’t, it remains exiled. If you cast a creature spell this way, it gains haste until you lose control of the spell or the permanent it becomes.”

As far as I know, the only way to spend mana on a spell is to spend it on casting the spell. Additional costs are payed to cast a spell. To cast, total cost = mana cost or alternative cost + additional costs and cost increases - cost reductions.
ikegami said:
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As far as I know, the only way to spend mana on a spell is to spend it on casting the spell. Additional costs are payed to cast a spell. To cast, total cost = mana cost or alternative cost + additional costs and cost increases - cost reductions.
== 

this clears it up for me, i think. the distinction between casting a *spell* and using an ability of a *card* is something i'm now more aware of!

ALTHOUGH, it brings up another question. i know that Lightning Storm is a really weird card in that it has an ability that can only be activated when it's a spell on the stack. suppose there is a card that increases the cost of activated abilities (such as suppression field).
` so now i can pay 2 mana and discard a card to activate the activated ability of the Lightning Storm spell. if i used boseiju mana to do this, does it then become uncounterable (ie because i am using the mana on an activated ability belonging to a *spell*)?
If [C]Chill[/C] was on the battlefield, you'd have to pay  to cast [C]Arc Blade[/C] when you remove the last time counter from it.

total cost
= mana cost or alternative cost + additional costs and cost increases - cost reductions
= free +

If you used mana from [C]Boseiju, Who Shelters All[/C] to pay that, [C]Arc Blade[/C] can't be countered.

so now i can pay 2 mana and discard a card to activate the activated ability of the Lightning Storm spell. if i used boseiju mana to do this, does it then become uncounterable (ie because i am using the mana on an activated ability belonging to a *spell*)?

No. It's not clear, but I believe it's not meant to cover that.

ALTHOUGH, it brings up another question, but i'll need help to properly convolute it. i know that Lightning Storm is a really weird card in that it has an ability that can only be activated when it's a spell on the stack. suppose there is a card that increases the cost of activated abilities (such as suppression field).
` so now i can pay 2 mana and discard a card to activate the activated ability of the Lightning Storm spell. if i used boseiju mana to do this, does it then become uncounterable (ie because i am using the mana on an activated ability belonging to a *spell*)?

sorry, still no (unless you used it on the actual mana cost)
proud member of the 2011 community team
There's no clear answer. I believe it's not meant to cover that.




so you're not sure of the answer, then?
Paying the suspend cost is not casting the spell.

You are merely exiling it with some time counters.

Once the last time counter is removed, you may cast the spell without paying its mana cost. 

You don't need to generate mana because the spell costs to cast.

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There's no clear answer. I believe it's not meant to cover that.


so you're not sure of the answer, then?

it's not covered in the rules (that I can find)

proud member of the 2011 community team
so you're not sure of the answer, then?

"spent on a spell" is not defined in the rules.

There's no clear answer. I believe it's not meant to cover that.




so you're not sure of the answer, then?

You're asking if he's sure that there's no clear answer?




that too? i was asking if he's sure that boseiju doesn't cover this situation of making Lightning Storm uncounterable in this way (ie if he's not sure then maybe others might chime in on their opinions, and if he is sure could he back it up with some Comp Rules so i can delight in exploring another nuance of the rules), but i also have irrationally strong interest whenever the Magic Rules Machine might have a hole in it, too, so the answer to "are you sure there's no clear answer?" interests me, too.
 sorry, still no (unless you used it on the actual mana cost)

wrong answer - read the rulings
The spell can't be countered if the mana produced by Boseiju is spent to cover any cost of the spell, even an additional cost such as a splice cost. This is true even if you pay an additional cost while casting a spell "without paying its mana cost."


an activated ability of a spell is not part of the cost of that spell

I'd argue that Boseiju only applies if you spend mana on the "total cost", activated abilities are not part of that
proud member of the 2011 community team
@2got4U, [C]Lightning Storm[/C] doesn't have an additional cost or otherwise add to the spell, so the ruling doesn't help.
so you're not sure of the answer, then?

"spent on a spell" is not defined in the rules.




ah, so that's why there is no clear answer.

hm. so have i stumbled upon a situation where there might be a hole in the rules (until it's given a ruling)? 
There's no clear answer. I believe it's not meant to cover that.




so you're not sure of the answer, then?

You're asking if he's sure that there's no clear answer?




that too? i was asking if he's sure that boseiju doesn't cover this situation of making Lightning Storm uncounterable in this way (ie if he's not sure then maybe others might chime in on their opinions, and if he is sure could he back it up with some Comp Rules so i can delight in exploring another nuance of the rules), but i also have irrationally strong interest whenever the Magic Rules Machine might have a hole in it, too, so the answer to "are you sure there's no clear answer?" interests me, too.

Yes, I misread your post.
I have deleted mine.

It's not Logic, it's Magic!

Aren't we talking about Chill and casting a suspended spell from exile?

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DJ Vortex

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Aren't we talking about Suppression Field and casting a suspended spell from exile?

no ;)
we're talking Suppression Field and Lightning Storm's ability
proud member of the 2011 community team
No, Suspend is a done deal: it doesn't work. (unless additional costs chime in)

We moved on to Lightning Storm.

It's not Logic, it's Magic!

well it works if you have some additional cost to pay to cast the suspended spell

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DJ Vortex

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Taking offers on my set of unopened limited edition full art judge foil basic lands, message me if interested.
 

Aren't we talking about Chill and casting a suspended spell from exile?



That was the first question.  The current question is Suppression Field and Lightning Storm and using mana from the  sheltering tree to pay for the activated the ability.
 
I think the answer is that the Lightning Storm can still be countered, since an activated ability is not a spell and the mana is spent on the ability.
with respect to the second question, I'd say it wouldn't make it uncounterable, the cost is for an activated ability not a cost to cast the spell

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DJ Vortex

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Taking offers on my set of unopened limited edition full art judge foil basic lands, message me if interested.
 

We're all interpreting it the same way, so that's a good sign.
Agreed.

It's not Logic, it's Magic!