Hit Die: Or are all Wizards are wimps?

Serioulsy you guys?

Genflaps here, mountaineer by trade as well as master of the mythical arts.
You'd be surprised by all the varrieties of mountain flower that a good Herbalist can use.
Sure my fitness has suffered slightly from all the hours I've devoted to the arcane arts, but I can still get out there on the cliff face anyday,
and I do, every second Sunday.

Even the Mountain Dwarfs recognise a hardier human than most climbs the great peaks.

My Constitusion has been rated as 16, which they tell me give me a +3 bonus to all hardy tasks.
And soaking up the grueling punishment of life is why I use d8 Hit Dice.

Now I would be a d10, but the doctors tell me my choice of profession has impacted my hardy somewhat,
but stuff em, I'm still hardier than most.

Cept those Mountain dwarfs of course, some of them, I hear told get up to d12.

========

So yeah. The idea.

Base Hit Dice is d4
Constitution modifier increases HD step.
Classes can have Hit Dice step modifiers, ie Wizard's HD step = -1

So for our friend Genflaps: !6 CON => +3 mod -1 wizard = +2 HD steps

ie
d4 => d8 
http://collectingrealities.blogspot.co.nz/
I literally just wrote something like this in a thread over. I think there's something to adding the dimension of classes adding a modifier and calculating a thing at the end, but don't classes do that anyway?
That's how Con actually works right at the moment. You get your Con mod added to your Hit Dice every level and every +1 to hp equals going up one hit die.
Yes, as Fleck said, a +1 modifier is the exact same thing as a die increase. Average of a d4 = 2.5. Average of a d6 = 3.5.
Yes, as Fleck said, a +1 modifier is the exact same thing as a die increase. Average of a d4 = 2.5. Average of a d6 = 3.5.



The average is the same, but the max goes up by 1 (d4max+1 = 5; d6max=6).
And if you have a +3, the average of d4+3 and d10 is the same, but the max goes up by 3 (d4max+3 versus d10max).

If people actually roll it can make a difference in some cases.  Of course - the minimum drops (d4min+1 = 2; d6min = 1; d4min+3 = 4; d10min=1).

So it's not the same  - just swingier for those who like to roll.

And for somethings - like using Hit Dice to recover  hit points - it can make a difference.  Since Healer's Touch can maximize the hit points recovered you would regain one more hit point per die using a d6 compared to a d4+1. Or three more hit points if you have a +3,


And how would that work with a fighter starting with d12?  Roll a d18 if you have a 16Con?

Carl
Yes, as Fleck said, a +1 modifier is the exact same thing as a die increase. Average of a d4 = 2.5. Average of a d6 = 3.5.



The average goes up by 1; the max goes up by one (d4max+1 = 5; d6max = 6).
And if you have a +3, the average goes up by three, but the max goes up by 3.

If people actually roll it can make a difference in some cases.  Of course - the minimum also goes down by 1 (d4min+1 = 2; d6min = 1).


So it's not the same  - just swingier for those who like to roll.

And for somethings - like using Hit Dice to recover  hit points - it can make a difference.  Since Healer's Touch can maximize the hit points recovered you would regain one more hit point per die using a d6 compared to a d4+1. 

Carl


Good points. Not that I've seen anybody actually roll hit dice in the past decade or so...

It would have an impact on Hit Dice healing, true. Can't tell right now if that'd be good or bad.
It would complicate something now easy without any gain.
Yes, as Fleck said, a +1 modifier is the exact same thing as a die increase. Average of a d4 = 2.5. Average of a d6 = 3.5.



The average goes up by 1; the max goes up by one (d4max+1 = 5; d6max = 6).
And if you have a +3, the average goes up by three, but the max goes up by 3.

If people actually roll it can make a difference in some cases.  Of course - the minimum also goes down by 1 (d4min+1 = 2; d6min = 1).


So it's not the same  - just swingier for those who like to roll.

And for somethings - like using Hit Dice to recover  hit points - it can make a difference.  Since Healer's Touch can maximize the hit points recovered you would regain one more hit point per die using a d6 compared to a d4+1. 

Carl


Good points. Not that I've seen anybody actually roll hit dice in the past decade or so...

It would have an impact on Hit Dice healing, true. Can't tell right now if that'd be good or bad.





And as long as they have stacked the dice against rolling you probably won't.


Rolling right now gives you a lower average than taking the safe route.  Only an idiot (or someone who really trusts in their luck - if that is different) would bother to roll for that reason.  Despite that fact that it also violates the "Always Round Down" rule as well.



If you have d10 hit dice, you should get 5 points for not rolling, not 6.  It is the right thing to do (round down) and it gives those who take the risk and roll a tiny (.5 points per level) benefit on average.  That is the least they deserve for being willing to take a chance.


Carl              

Yes, as Fleck said, a +1 modifier is the exact same thing as a die increase. Average of a d4 = 2.5. Average of a d6 = 3.5.



The average goes up by 1; the max goes up by one (d4max+1 = 5; d6max = 6).
And if you have a +3, the average goes up by three, but the max goes up by 3.

If people actually roll it can make a difference in some cases.  Of course - the minimum also goes down by 1 (d4min+1 = 2; d6min = 1).


So it's not the same  - just swingier for those who like to roll.

And for somethings - like using Hit Dice to recover  hit points - it can make a difference.  Since Healer's Touch can maximize the hit points recovered you would regain one more hit point per die using a d6 compared to a d4+1. 

Carl


Good points. Not that I've seen anybody actually roll hit dice in the past decade or so...

It would have an impact on Hit Dice healing, true. Can't tell right now if that'd be good or bad.





And as long as they have stacked the dice against rolling you probably won't.


Rolling right now gives you a lower average than taking the safe route.  Only an idiot (or someone who really trusts in their luck - if that is different) would bother to roll for that reason.  Despite that fact that it also violates the "Always Round Down" rule as well.



If you have d10 hit dice, you should get 5 points for not rolling, not 6.  It is the right thing to do (round down) and it gives those who take the risk and roll a tiny (.5 points per level) benefit on average.  That is the least they deserve for being willing to take a chance.


Carl              




I agree whole-heartedly. Rounding up for the average HD completely removes rolling for HP as a viable option. If this isn't changed back I will certainly houserule that "Always Round Down" applies to average HD.

Meh, I never liked how in 3.x 25 point buy gave you slightly lesser ability scores than 4d6 drop lowest, and I most certainly don't want to see rolling hit dice to give you an advantage. Both option should be equal on average.

I guess the designers felt 'You gain x hit points every even level and x+1 hit points every odd level.' was an unnecessary complication. It would be fairer though.


If you have d10 hit dice, you should get 5 points for not rolling, not 6.  It is the right thing to do (round down) and it gives those who take the risk and roll a tiny (.5 points per level) benefit on average.  That is the least they deserve for being willing to take a chance.


Carl              




+1000
Reading this thread gave me an idea... we've already seen them split attribute bumps between race and class, so what if hit point bumps were split among race, class, and background? The combination of all three elements would determine a character's starting hit point total (if not the HP earned each level).

Wizards, sages, and elves are fragile, but dwarves, knights, and fighters are tough. Backgrounds are the key here... instead of always offering exactly three trained skills, some could offer a variable amount of bonus HP or even a bonus HD at level one. So your Dwarf Wizard Knight could have a d4 from Wizard (bumped to d6 for being a Hill Dwarf) and a bonus d8 for being a Knight. It'd be nice if skills were bumped by all three elements, too... but that's a discussion for another thread.

Wounds Module [updated for Basic]

Proficiency Module

Reading this thread gave me an idea... we've already seen them split attribute bumps between race and class, so what if hit point bumps were split among race, class, and background? The combination of all three elements would determine a character's starting hit point total (if not the HP earned each level). Wizards, sages, and elves are fragile, but dwarves, knights, and fighters are tough. Backgrounds are the key here... instead of always offering exactly three trained skills, some could offer a variable amount of bonus HP or even a bonus HD at level one. So your Dwarf Wizard Knight could have a d4 from Wizard (bumped to d6 for being a Hill Dwarf) and a bonus d8 for being a Knight. It'd be nice if skills were bumped by all three elements, too... but that's a discussion for another thread.



It would be interesting to give backgrounds something else to contribute, but too much and it becomes harder to balance. Right now all backgrounds give you three skills and a minor ability that's usually RP based. If you make your own you get three skills you pick and your DM assist's in your minor ability. These are very simple things because it's just what your character was raised doing and something else that's fun to play with. Once you start deciding that certain backgrounds bump hit die it complicates things and could make some obviously better than others. At least in this system of the playtest, octobers could be different.

That said backgrounds effecting something real in your character. "Working Class" backgrounds like Commoner and Artisan give you a boost to Hit Die, "Military Class" backgrounds like Knight or Soldier give you a +1 to weapon attack, "Academic Class" backgrounds like Sage and Priest give you a +1 to Magic attack and "Privileged Class" backgrounds like Noble (or even Charlatan) pick between +1 to Magic attack or Weapon attack.

The problem with this is now some backgrounds are obviously better for certain classes than others. Why would my Fighter be a Priest when he doesn't even have a magic attack? But it's something to play around with.

Hit Die are tricky. On the one hand, I actually like how hard this system on D&D is right now. Something like this should be a Mod in the finished version for people who are playing a one shot or really want a challenge. There's so much tension because one unlucky miss for you could mean your about to die. But i recognize that taking one hit and going down isn't very fun.
I certainly wouldn't have Backgrounds affect any of the Bounded Accuracy levers (attack or AC), just HP/HD (hits), Skills, & Trait. The idea is that all BGs would affect Hits, but those with fewer Hits would get more Skills and vice versa. So your Sage would a bonus d4 HD, but would come with 5-6 Lore skills. A Soldier Wizard wouldn't have as much Lore, but they'd have the extra toughness comensurate with their military experience.

Wounds Module [updated for Basic]

Proficiency Module

Even though I only agree with Phoenix182 about half the time, I love that his voice is part of these boards.  We can get a little insulated in our own little anecdotal world.

Never been at a table that didn't roll hit points.



I can wish that were true - but I tried to get my players to roll last levelup.  The couple who were on the fence changed their mind when they compared average to static.


But to trade anecdotal stories:  WHen we played AD&D back in the late 70s, early to mid '80s (1st ed) we always rolled hit points (of course).

But we rolled them at the start of every adventure.  Your hit points repesented how you felt that day - not a permanent measure of your health.  So crappy rolls only affected you for one adventure - and godly rolls only helped you out for that one adventure.    And, in the long run, they averaged out.

It worked for us - better than permanently rolled numbers seem to have worked for many other people.  It wasn't until I left Ithaca and started playing elsewhere that I realized that everyone didn't do it that way. 


Carl
Even though I only agree with Phoenix182 about half the time, I love that his voice is part of these boards.  We can get a little insulated in our own little anecdotal world.



It's definitely been an eye-opener for me. Not in a million years would I have guessed that there were people like I've encountered here. Has forced me to completely rethink my relation to, and understanding of, roleplaying.



My experience has been the same.  I am perhaps more surprised though by your opposite as I am by you.  Also unlike some groups on these boards I believe I could play in your game and have fun.  It would feel strange but it would still be fun.
"The class is the class in a class based game."
~Phoenix182

Can we get that on the cover of the next Next playtest?
Viva La "what ever version of D&D you are playing right now!"
Whenever a class has envy of another, there should be a specialty to close the gap. Like jack of all trades, or a speciality called hardiness to increase your hit die pool. In the same fashion, if opportunity attacks where the sole provence of a fighter, there could be a specialty available called combat reflexes that could offer a non-fighter class the same ability. Overall, specialties can be a partial answer to multiclassing by offering minor features available to all classes. The trick it to keep them generic enough to not impose a specialty tax on any given class, like the current version of the healer specialty (max healing).
Woah you guys missed the point.

The class does NOT determine the Hit Dice. Just modifies the size.

So for example Fighters would get a increase in dice size, maybe +1.

So a Fighter with a CON score of 16, ie a modifer of +3, gets a total dice size increase of +4.

+4 from d4 = d10


dice track d4 => d6 => d8 => 2d4 => d10 => d12 => 2d6
http://collectingrealities.blogspot.co.nz/
So a 10 CON fighter has a d6 hit die and 6 HP at first level, while a 16 Con wizard has a d10 and 10 Hp?

"Bortak! Stop hiding behind the wizard with the wheat grass shake and Golds Gym t-shirt and fight!"

"I can't! *cough* I'M SCARED!"
The way I figure it, the time and concentration spent in becoming a Fighter is largely spent on physical improvement in one way or another. This durability presents mechanically as Hit Points. Wizards, on the other hand, require more mental faculties. The closest thing I've seen to a wizard's apprentice doing serious exercise is Luke Skywalker in Episode V: The Unmatching Timelines. While I'm not saying "all wizards are wimps, all fighters are muscular," it is tremendously likely in a given sample. And if you OPT to have your character focus on personal endurance as well as their spells, the OPTion of the "Survivor" specialty is there to boost it. It may feel like this prevents you from picking something else, but (A) you can't have everything, and (B) it's existence at your table is optional to begin with.

There's always going to be a concern that the wizard is too powerful. I feel that more HP would only make that worse.
"Our idea of rules modules has a wide range of scope; sometimes, our rules modules might just be small tweaks and variant rules, while other times they could be large-scale changes and entirely new subsystems. We want people to make the game their own, and that means provided a whole array of possibilities based on what you, the players, tell us that you want." -D&DNext Q&A Blog, 8/29/12, Answer #3.
The way I figure it, the time and concentration spent in becoming a Fighter is largely spent on physical improvement in one way or another. 



Its defensive skills eh the fighter has a parry option.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I think ther OP usa missing the rationale behind the low HP in the first place. If you're busy being a "mountaineer by trade" as well as an herbalist, then you do not have time to study the tones which would make you a wizard in the first place. The low HD for wizards reflects that truism.

Frankly, the character concept presented in the OP comes across as try one more of those "I'm good at EVERYTHING" FanFic abominations which any sensible DM would drop a load of rocks on.
The way I figure it, the time and concentration spent in becoming a Fighter is largely spent on physical improvement in one way or another. 



Its defensive skills eh the fighter has a parry option.



Thought I would follow up on this...   What if hit points just didnt go up, but parry did (more than CS does now by a bunch). No falling off a building and parrying the ground.

The difference between a wizard and a fighter defensively would be explicit skilled actions that involve choices...  not extremes of base hit points. Maybe your martial artist can spend some of those dice buffering vs a fall but that wouldnt be the default it would be an explicit design choice.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Garth - i don't agree with this.   When people fall off buildings, some break their backs, andbounce land on their feet with no damage.   So, I think a fighter who is not flat footed should have better hp when falling than the mage - he's more likely to land "goodenough".    
So, I don't like your suggestion.  
Theoretically, if you let the fighter parry the ground, your model ibetter - the alert fighter is still more likely to land well, and the flat footed fighter is likely to hurt himself.   
Garth - i don't agree with this.   When people fall off buildings, some break their backs, andbounce land on their feet with no damage.  (not very often and not very reliably). 



Actually its sort of an expansion off of a really old Dave Arneson house rule I read about.. he had your initial hp be fairly static.. (On one occasion I heard he recommended 4HD )  then he had a progressing armor class. One of the implications is armor class just doesnt do much when smashing against the ground.  

I kind of like how CS dice could be expanded upon to do the work of progressing hit points. Perhaps you would start with say your CON value + a class based number  One value might be the base hit points would feel more like physical toughness and your defenses would feel active. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

 
Theoretically, if you let the fighter parry the ground, your model ibetter - the alert fighter is still more likely to land well, and the flat footed fighter is likely to hurt himself.   


 
I think I actually like the idea of the perfect landing (parrying the ground) remembering that an epic fighter is dealing with fliers and huge beasts potentially with knock backs that hurl them accross the scene and so on ..  thats cooler than the passive hit point buffer in some sense.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Serioulsy you guys?

Genflaps here, mountaineer by trade as well as master of the mythical arts.
You'd be surprised by all the varrieties of mountain flower that a good Herbalist can use.
Sure my fitness has suffered slightly from all the hours I've devoted to the arcane arts, but I can still get out there on the cliff face anyday,
and I do, every second Sunday.

Even the Mountain Dwarfs recognise a hardier human than most climbs the great peaks.

My Constitusion has been rated as 16, which they tell me give me a +3 bonus to all hardy tasks.
And soaking up the grueling punishment of life is why I use d8 Hit Dice.

Now I would be a d10, but the doctors tell me my choice of profession has impacted my hardy somewhat,
but stuff em, I'm still hardier than most.

Cept those Mountain dwarfs of course, some of them, I hear told get up to d12.

========

So yeah. The idea.

Base Hit Dice is d4
Constitution modifier increases HD step.
Classes can have Hit Dice step modifiers, ie Wizard's HD step = -1

So for our friend Genflaps: !6 CON => +3 mod -1 wizard = +2 HD steps

ie
d4 => d8 

The simpler rule would be to just bring back +hp per level with con. a +1 Hp per level is eqivalent to increasing a die step from 1d6 to 1d8, if less fun than being able to roll a bigger die