The Challenging Champion: Optimizing Divine Combat Challenge

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This is a work in progress. Advice/tips/critique is most appreciated.


Creds to Mommy_was_an_Orc for the idea

MwaO made the suggestion of a Fighter|Pally build to take full advantage of the classes' compatible mark punishment mechanics a while back, and since I've found nothing similar on CharOp (besides perhaps the Polepally), I figured it was a good idea to present a 1-30 build.


[sblock Build Concept]
The Challenging Champion aims primarily to optimize defender performance by combining a Fighter's pimped out CC MBA punishment with the Pally's "infinite range no-action auto-hit"-DC/DS punishment and associated options.


From this, the build simply tries to gather the best options from both classes to improve its "Divine Combat Challenge" mechanic, for example:



  • Flail slide-proning package for nasty CC attacks and OAs

  • Champion of Order for lasting lockdown and punishment through OAs

  • Mass-DS and lasting mark powers

  • "Black Hole"-powers such as Come and Get It and Warrior's Urging

  • Markless punishment such as Knightly Intercession and Dust Storm Assault

  • Front loaded action-denial powers such as Mark of Terror and Stunning Smite


The rest is pretty standard Fighter/Pally primary defender stuff along with a few unusual item choices.


[/sblock]


[sblock Level 1-30 Summary]Challenging Champion, level 30
Half-Orc, Fighter/Paladin, Champion of Order, Indomitable Champion
Hybrid Talent: One-handed Weapon Talent
Arcane Student Who Saw Too Much
Ironwrought


FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 28, CON 16, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 24, CHA 13


STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 14, DEX 12, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 11


AC: 51 (49 bloodied)   Fort: 51   Ref: 47   Will: 49
HP: 225   Surges: 14   Surge Value: 56
Inititative: +31   Speed: 7


TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +26, Endurance +22, Insight +27


POWERS
Ironwrought Attack: Inevitable Strike
Half-Orc Racial Power: Furious Assault
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Paladin Feature: Divine Challenge
Fighter Attack 1: Footwork Lure
Paladin Attack 1: Ardent Strike
Fighter Attack 1: Passing Attack
Fighter Attack 1: Villain's Menace
Paladin Utility 2: Call of Challenge
Paladin Attack 3: Hold Fast
Paladin Attack 5: Arc of Vengeance
Paladin Utility 2: Virtue
Fighter Attack 7: Come and Get It
Paladin Attack 9: Knightly Intercession
Fighter Utility 10: Clearheaded
Champion of Order Attack 11: Certain Justice
Champion of Order Utility 12: None Shall Pass
Paladin Attack 13: Castigating Strike
Fighter Attack 15: Dust Storm Assault
Paladin Utility 16: Divine Aegis
Paladin Attack 17: Mark of Terror
Fighter Attack 19: Strike of the Watchful Guard
Champion of Order Attack 20: Rule of Order
Fighter Utility 22: Prescient Shield
Fighter Attack 23: Warrior's Urging
Paladin Attack 25: Roaring Thunder
Indomitable Champion Utility 26: Epic Tenacity
Paladin Attack 27: Stunning Smite
Fighter Attack 29: Force the Battle
Indomitable Champion Utility 30: Unmatched Defense


FEATS
Level 1: Devout Protector Expertise
Level 2: Blessed Strength
Level 4: Mighty Challenge
Level 6: Hybrid Talent
Level 8: Improved Defenses
Level 10: Thirst for Battle
Level 11: Lashing Flail
Level 11: Flail Expertise replaces Devout Protector Expertise
Level 12: Daunting Challenge
Level 14: Superior Will
Level 16: Shield Specialization
Level 18: Honored Foe
Level 20: Armor Proficiency: Plate
Level 21: Rapid Combat Challenge
Level 21: Weakening Challenge replaces Mighty Challenge
Level 22: Divine Mastery
Level 22: Superior Initiative replaces Thirst for Battle
Level 24: Martial Resolve
Level 26: Epic Reflexes
Level 28: Epic Will 
Level 30: Epic Fortitude?


ITEMS 14,625,000 gp expected, no rare items
Agile Godplate Armor +6
Heavy Shield
Feyslaughter Alhulak +6
Symbol of the Champion's Code +6
Helm of Ghostly Defense
Elemental Ward Cloak +6
Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier)
Strikebacks
Foe Binder Ring
Champion's Ring
Diamond Cincture (paragon tier)
Boots of Caiphon
Backlash Tattoo
Magnificent Tsor's Punishing Retort
Flickers of Faith (heroic tier)
The Fading One - Spirit Body
Quickening Waters
Kingslayer's Curse - Face Me, Cowards
Book of Five Truths (The Fourth Truth)
527,950 gp left


[/sblock]


Though mostly standard options from each class, the combo should result in a very strong defender. I'll add the numbers and explain the mechanics in detail later, but feel free to ask if anything seems weird.


Have I missed anything? Could another race/pp/weapon/whatever be better? All suggestions to improve the concept (Divine Combat Challenge) are welcome!


[sblock Edit History]-Skipped Dragging Flail, got Honored Foe, Plate and Epic Will earlier, and Epic Fortitude added at lvl 30.
[/sblock]

Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
Reserved for whatever. Feel free to post!
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
Epic feat:  Paladin's Truth to ignore resists and immunities of anything you have marked.

You might also consider Gladiator Champion if you want to be more of a black hole style defender.  That would prevent the second creature from shifting completely away from you.  It would result in fewer creatures trying to attack allies, and thus, fewer activations of your mark punishment though BUT would let you lock down multiple creatures at once.

Bargle wrote:
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
 

Zelink wrote:
You're already refluffing, why not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
Another option is to go with a Dragonborn and Harlequin Style. Then you get +(Cha + 1) to your defenses whenever you use brash strike. In that case, you're leaning more towards being a striker, since your target is probably going to trigger your mark punishment much more often.
Undeniable Challenge + Voidsoul Genasi is quite fun.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Another option is to go with a Dragonborn and Harlequin Style. Then you get +(Cha + 1) to your defenses whenever you use brash strike. In that case, you're leaning more towards being a striker, since your target is probably going to trigger your mark punishment much more often.




This is what I prefer.  It makes it really unattractive to hit you (stupid defenses) and really really unattractive to hit your party (DC/DS/Interrupts/Fighter arsewhoopins).
I have a human Cavalier|Fighter that I have been running in LFR.  I started him at level 1 and he's just made it to level 4.

He uses a Falchion for his weapon.  His at-wills are Strike of Hope, Ardent Strike, and Reaping Strike.  If I know I am having an issue hitting something, I switch to Reaping Strike so I can at least deal some damage and keep the thing marked.  Anything that I am not focusing on gets to deal with my Defender's Aura.  If I hit with Ardent Strike and something provokes my mark, I get to deal 3+CHA-mod damage and make a MBA on it.

I am still working on how I want to proceed.  I am currently thinking to either MC with Master of Stories to get the Skald's Aura and PMC Bard to get a Bard at-will at Paragon, or I might go with Kensai for my paragon path, to help ensure that I hit.  Either of those options might work alright for me. 
@TheMalteseFalchion: Yeah, I did consider Paladin's Truth but skipped it because a) already have this vs. demons and elementals, and b) which feat would you trade for it? Regarding Gladiator Champion, I don't think I need the extra stickiness as I have DC/DS and Daunting Challenge. The name is fitting though - it's a champion! 

@Mellored: Fun and also deliciously evil! But you sort of need the whole Void package to make it worth the cost IMO. And I believe someone has already presented such a build...

@Black_Knight999 and Jugulator007Dragonborn and Harlequin Style is good, especially since you can get another minor action mass-DS with DB. But it has one major problem: it requires your standard action to affect a single enemy. Therefore I believe it quickly loses power after mid/late heroic, unless you somehow manage to have most of your encounter and dailies as really good non-standard action attacks or find a way to Brash Strike as a non-standard reliably. Looking at the current Challenging Champion's most basic power order in epic, something like:
1. Call of Challenge
2. Warrior's Urging / Certain Justice (depending on encounter)
3. Helm of Ghostly Defense Interrupt on first hit (insubstantial)
4. Stunning Smite (+ DC Certain Justic target)
5. Castigating Strike
6. Encounter over
Turns the Dragonborn HS + BS combo into a situationally useful/mop-up trick and thus not worth the cost as far as I can see. But maybe I'm missing something here, never played a HS Fighter.

@Undrhil: Why are you using a 2-handed weapon instead of a shield? 
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
A void paladin would probably work better then my void warden. Not that you need the full package, those 2 powers work great by themselves.

The only other suggestion i have is stealth.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

A void pally can probably be great, yes. But the aim of this build is to optimize the CC + DC/DS combo, which doesn't fit the void mechanics very well. 

Why stealth? 
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
I almost think the flail expertise proning makes you too sticky.  If you want to optimize retaliation, it might be best to make it easier for the enemies to violate your mark.  If they just obey you round after round, all those resources are for nothing.
Well, if you use Void Assumption to vanish, the enemies have no choice but to disobey your mark, eating whatever Divine Challenge punishment you gave them.(Well, they could always opt to do nothing, but that's still a win outcome, since the enemy spent his turn doing nothing)
It's +5 vs melee and ranged, assuming they guess the square. It might also give you an occasional OA, for a possible tripple damage.

Persistant tail is a simple way of getting it, though it may not be worth the resources (mainly Wis).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

@Scatterbrained: I'm trying to optimize primary defender performance through the DCC combo. If marked enemies always choose to obey the mark, attacking me should perhaps suck even more. Though the build has quite a few ways to punish enemy hits, or just being adjacent, and can increase defenses significantly, maybe it needs even more on the "don't hit me"-side to balance out? Any suggestions (besides HS+BS)?

(Even a lvl 35 monster with a +40 vs. AC attack would probably only have a 25-7.5% hit chance, besides likely eating an MBA if actually hitting.)

But Dragging Flail doesn't seem very important, I wonder why I kept that, really... Thanks!

@EnglishLanguage: Of course, though that's also all the enemies eat. IE: great in epic with WC, but in other respects it's mostly working against the CC (and CoO) mechanics which require you to be present. I think this would be much better for a straight pally.
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
Persistent Tail stealth could actually be great... Why Wis, BTW? I'd assume Dex, but it would be a much better deal if it could somehow depend on Wis.
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
I can't think of any Wis to Stealth, so that would be the main sacrifice... your probably want some items too. May not be worth it. Though you do get init.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

No the point of HS is that you give one guy a huge disincentive to attack you or anyone else, and everyone else the normal penalty.  And yes you get an extra encounter minor action DS power.
@mellored: Ah, that's what you meant about Wis, of course. Sorry, I'm a bit slow... I'd have to try building this from scratch to see how good it actually could get. But considering the only things that currently rely on a high Wis is Honored Foe and Prescient Shield, so it shouldn't be the end of the world losing it as a secondary (and I'll get more out of the HOrc Dex bonus). Will defense can easily be increased with at least +2, since it currently includes no item bonuses.

@Jugulator007: If I've written anything that contradicts what you're saying about HS here, it wasn't intentional. ;) Doesn't affect the "standard action at-will spamming"-problem though, (or the feat cost).
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
Actually, never mind.
persistant tail takes your immidiate, which means no CC...
unless you have rapid challenge.

Still may not be worth it.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Between fighter and paladin I feel as though you have enough minor/off turn powers available (knightly intercession, glowering threat, ray of reprisal, etc) to make it worth it.
Actually, never mind. persistant tail takes your immidiate, which means no CC... unless you have rapid challenge. Still may not be worth it.

Yeah, noticed that problem. In addition, it should ideally be a true perma-hidden build (always hide and move while hidden after any attack) which seems very hard force onto a Fighter|Pally chassis even in epic, if not impossible? Though I guess something like a Chaladin|Assassin/Warlock build could be a ridiculously effective epic defender. But just by going the Dex route and swapping out some equipment, you could easily get near perma-concealment and a bit better defenses. Not yet sure it's straight up better than the current build though.

Between fighter and paladin I feel as though you have enough minor/off turn powers available (knightly intercession, glowering threat, ray of reprisal, etc) to make it worth it.

Hmm... You may be right - a HS Dragonborn Baladin|Fighter build might have great potential. Think I'll have a look into that, actually. Thanks!
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
Thanks.

Problem with Baladin is that you don't ramp up Honored Foe. Honored Foe of 6-7 temps+DR 5 against marked targets+Weakening Challenge is going to create a default catch-22 problem that's quite annoying. Draconic Sanction+Castigating Strike+Call of Challenge+DC ought to wreak havoc against enemy tactics.

What I'd look at is a Dragonborn with:
18 Str/13 Con/14 Wis/16 Cha where you level Str/Wis. This has some interesting effects:
If you get expertise at 1st, you have the same to-hit chance with Valorous Strike that the Inexhaustible Dragon Sovereign does until 8th. By the time your miss chance with Ironwrought is significant enough in comparison, you qualify for the upgrade to Castigating Strike.
Hybrid Talent for Two-Handed Weapon opens up Pinning Immobilization - hit a marked someone with an MBA and kill their round.
And Draconic Sanction is a nice mass-sanction to use after Come And Get It

Okay, so the relative damage of your DC/Sanction isn't going to be so hot, particularly in Epic. But it isn't that bad. In Heroic, it is more than close enough. In Epic, it is all about the catch-22 up above, particularly in the context that a CC means immobilization.
I tried to do this myself with a Half-Orc for Blessed Strength (and Mighty Challenge on top of that) so I could pretty much ignore Charisma.  I went with 16 starting Con and MC Warlock to get Avernian Knight, although I later started wishing I'd gotten more Wisdom.

The problem I kept running into was mostly the same as with my Hammer Knight- I was simpy too sticky, and the DM would never trigger my punishment, so I ended up spending more and more resources on simply surviving the beatdown, though... 
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
Between fighter and paladin I feel as though you have enough minor/off turn powers available (knightly intercession, glowering threat, ray of reprisal, etc) to make it worth it.



Question on Knightly Intercession, do you get Divine Sanction as either a Hybrid or MC Paladin? If the Knightly Intercession power allows you to use your Divine Sanction, how does it work with a Hybrid or MC Paladin? Thanks. 
Between fighter and paladin I feel as though you have enough minor/off turn powers available (knightly intercession, glowering threat, ray of reprisal, etc) to make it worth it.



Question on Knightly Intercession, do you get Divine Sanction as either a Hybrid or MC Paladin? If the Knightly Intercession power allows you to use your Divine Sanction, how does it work with a Hybrid or MC Paladin? Thanks. 

Divine sanction is from the power, not the class.  Any one can powerswap into paladin to use it.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I tried to do this myself with a Half-Orc for Blessed Strength (and Mighty Challenge on top of that) so I could pretty much ignore Charisma.  I went with 16 starting Con and MC Warlock to get Avernian Knight, although I later started wishing I'd gotten more Wisdom.

The problem I kept running into was mostly the same as with my Hammer Knight- I was simpy too sticky, and the DM would never trigger my punishment, so I ended up spending more and more resources on simply surviving the beatdown, though... 



One of the key aspects of a Straladin is that they have access to Honored Foe/Virtuous Recovery, both feats which basically simulate unerrata'd Battlerager by themselves. Throw in Lay on Hands and a high Wisdom and a Straladin can almost ignore any kind of damage.
Straladins don't really do that because they're not worried about ignoring damage, they're worried about being relevant because they lack control and a strong mark. Hybrid Fighters have the strong mark and pinning challenge is ridiculously nasty control, but they need some auto-marking capabilities and survivability if they go two-handed instead of one... 
Between fighter and paladin I feel as though you have enough minor/off turn powers available (knightly intercession, glowering threat, ray of reprisal, etc) to make it worth it.



Question on Knightly Intercession, do you get Divine Sanction as either a Hybrid or MC Paladin? If the Knightly Intercession power allows you to use your Divine Sanction, how does it work with a Hybrid or MC Paladin? Thanks. 

Divine sanction is from the power, not the class.  Any one can powerswap into paladin to use it.



Thanks Mellored. Is there a Diet version of you?
Thanks Mellored. Is there a Diet version of you?



I wouldn't ask that. His diet version is probably revenant.

The thinnest, lightest unkillable build on the market!

Bargle wrote:
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
 

Zelink wrote:
You're already refluffing, why not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
Thanks.

Problem with Baladin is that you don't ramp up Honored Foe. Honored Foe of 6-7 temps+DR 5 against marked targets+Weakening Challenge is going to create a default catch-22 problem that's quite annoying. Draconic Sanction+Castigating Strike+Call of Challenge+DC ought to wreak havoc against enemy tactics.

Yes, losing HF is one issue with the Baladin route, another perhaps equally important is getting the stats for the better CC-related feats (such as the pole or flail package). And strong marks don't go as well with a 2-handed setup, especially not without Wis as a good secondary and a decent Con. So an otherwise "cheaper" 2-handed boost like PI is out of the question. I whipped up a few Harlequin Baladin versions but none were on par with the Challenging Champion IMO, notably suffering vs. multiple foes and from having two attack stats (thus having weaker CC punishments or less accuracy, for example). Their "unhittable" HS + BS defenses would still make them superior vs. solos, but their mostly non-standard encounter and dailies aren't good enough to compensate for their weaknesses otherwise, despite having access to some great Cha-based options. 

What I'd look at is a Dragonborn with:
18 Str/13 Con/14 Wis/16 Cha where you level Str/Wis. This has some interesting effects:
If you get expertise at 1st, you have the same to-hit chance with Valorous Strike that the Inexhaustible Dragon Sovereign does until 8th. By the time your miss chance with Ironwrought is significant enough in comparison, you qualify for the upgrade to Castigating Strike.
Hybrid Talent for Two-Handed Weapon opens up Pinning Immobilization - hit a marked someone with an MBA and kill their round.
And Draconic Sanction is a nice mass-sanction to use after Come And Get It

Okay, so the relative damage of your DC/Sanction isn't going to be so hot, particularly in Epic. But it isn't that bad. In Heroic, it is more than close enough. In Epic, it is all about the catch-22 up above, particularly in the context that a CC means immobilization.

That's certainly a nifty stat/power combo for a Dragonborn build, but how would you bring the defenses up to par? I mean, this build could actually be in even greater need of superior defensive abilities, considering it's perhaps even stickier while its MBA doesn't apply any attack penalties. Regardless, if the Divine Combat Challenge concept deserves turning this thread to a short build guide, I believe it should include a Dragonborn version simply because of the extra mass-DS if nothing else.

And I don't think DC/DS damage should be much of an issue for a Fightadin (Pallighter?) after heroic, since you should be able to mostly rely on whatever other punishment shenanigans (pimped out CC etc) you have from early paragon and onwards. And in epic, the DC/DS punishment that matters is WC, regardless of what flavor of true/hybrid pally you are (with the possible exception of a Morninglord Baladin/HOrc). 

I tried to do this myself with a Half-Orc for Blessed Strength (and Mighty Challenge on top of that) so I could pretty much ignore Charisma.  I went with 16 starting Con and MC Warlock to get Avernian Knight, although I later started wishing I'd gotten more Wisdom.

The problem I kept running into was mostly the same as with my Hammer Knight- I was simpy too sticky, and the DM would never trigger my punishment, so I ended up spending more and more resources on simply surviving the beatdown, though... 

 

One of the key aspects of a Straladin is that they have access to Honored Foe/Virtuous Recovery, both feats which basically simulate unerrata'd Battlerager by themselves. Throw in Lay on Hands and a high Wisdom and a Straladin can almost ignore any kind of damage.
Straladins don't really do that because they're not worried about ignoring damage, they're worried about being relevant because they lack control and a strong mark. Hybrid Fighters have the strong mark and pinning challenge is ridiculously nasty control, but they need some auto-marking capabilities and survivability if they go two-handed instead of one... 

It's a bit annoying the hybrids can't ever access the stellar HF+VR+LOH combo that typically would help them much more than true Straladins. But yeah, +Wis still usually beats +Con for a primary defender hybrid's survivability, despite the lack of LOH. 

BTW, must say I like the "Hell's Crusader" flavor of your build, Metafictional. Hmm... Speaking of "Hells", seems he's just one big growling mount from becoming the perfect 4e outlaw biker!

Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
I was thinking something along the lines of this:
Heroic Tier: Mimics Inexhaustible Draconic Sovereign via putting off defensive bonuses for bonuses to hit. As an example, Valorous Smite is based on Charisma and this build only has a 16 starting Charisma instead of 18. But at 1st level, should have Devout Protector Expertise instead of Polearm, giving it the same to-hit chance with Cha powers as the IDS.

Paragon Tier: As below. Straightfoward Catch-22 - resist 5 when bloodied, resist 10 after action point, get +Wis temp hit points upon being hit by foe marked with Divine Challenge/Sanction. With Weapon Master's Strike, a hit opponent generates OAs on a shift. A DC'd opponent can still trigger Combat Challenge. And to top it off, any marked opponent who is hit by an MBA is immobilized. i.e. it isn't that hard to create a situation where 2 opponents a round trigger immobilizing attacks by trying to get away from him, yet at the same time, they'll be generating tons of temp hit points and needing to pierce resist. At 12th, adds Improved Defenses. 13th, substitutes Castigating Strike(and Str instead of Cha) for Valorous Smite. 14th, bumps Wisdom up and picks up Virtuous Recovery, so has the additional benefit of resist 4+ after spending a healing surge.

Epic: Weakening Challenge. Enough said.

Show
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 11
Dragonborn, Fighter/Paladin, Dreadnought
Hybrid Paladin Option: Hybrid Paladin Will
Hybrid Talent Option: Fighter Combat Talent
Fighter Combat Talent Option: Two-handed Weapon Talent (Hybrid)
Dragonborn Racial Power Option: Dragon Breath
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Cold
Vilhon Wilds (Vilhon Wilds Benefit)
Theme: Ironwrought

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 21, CON 14, DEX 11, INT 9, WIS 17, CHA 17

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 13, DEX 10, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 14


AC: 27 Fort: 24 Ref: 18 Will: 25
HP: 99 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 26

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +16, Endurance +13, Intimidate +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Arcana +4, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +8, History +6, Insight +8, Nature +8, Perception +8, Religion +4, Stealth +5, Streetwise +8, Thievery +5

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Ironwrought Attack: Inevitable Strike
Dragonborn Racial Power: Dragon Breath
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Paladin Feature: Divine Challenge
Fighter Attack 1: Weapon Master's Strike
Paladin Attack 1: Ardent Strike
Paladin Attack 1: Valorous Smite
Paladin Attack 1: Majestic Halo
Paladin Utility 2: Call of Challenge
Fighter Attack 3: Parry and Riposte
Fighter Attack 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter Utility 6: Dauntless Endurance
Fighter Attack 7: Come and Get It
Paladin Attack 9: Shout of Condemnation
Fighter Utility 10: Iron Defiance
Dreadnought Attack 11: Inexorable Advance

FEATS
Level 1: Polearm Expertise
Level 2: Draconic Challenge
Level 4: Improved Initiative
Level 6: Superior Will
Level 10: Hybrid Talent
Level 11: Honored Foe
Level 11: Pinning Challenge

ITEMS
Magic Glaive +3 x1
Amulet of Protection +3 x1
Symbol of the Champion's Code +2 x1
Magic Wyvernscale Armor +3 x1
====== End ======



  
Gladiator theme, keep them close + weakening challenge = no one is going anywhere without lurker powers.
I was thinking something along the lines of this:

This looks nice. Two questions:
Why Dreadnought? Seems to have quite a bit of overlap with Ironwrought and feats (making the U12 redundant, for example).
Why Shout of Condemnation instead of Knightly Intercession? Seems with 3 mass-DS encounter powers, Come and Get It and serious durability you'd gain more from a markless interrupt lasting DS power.

I think this build could be superior in heroic, the main problem I see in later levels would be the lower AC (and Ref to some extent). Even if some of it can be compensated through durability options, I don't think it'll be enough and/or too costly to bring it up to par, especially in epic. What's your take on this?

EDIT: There's also the problem of not being able to defend with your OA as effectively after heroic (compared to the current build in the OP).

Gladiator theme, keep them close + weakening challenge = no one is going anywhere without lurker powers.

I'd prefer to keep this free from setting specific elements. Otherwise this is such a no-brainer in epic it almost goes without saying.
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
I was thinking something along the lines of this:

This looks nice. Two questions:
Why Dreadnought? Seems to have quite a bit of overlap with Ironwrought and feats (making the U12 redundant, for example).
Why Shout of Condemnation instead of Knightly Intercession? Seems with 3 mass-DS encounter powers, Come and Get It and serious durability you'd gain more from a markless interrupt lasting DS power.

I think this build could be superior in heroic, the main problem I see in later levels would be the lower AC (and Ref to some extent). Even if some of it can be compensated through durability options, I don't think it'll be enough and/or too costly to bring it up to par, especially in epic. What's your take on this?

EDIT: There's also the problem of not being able to defend with your OA as effectively after heroic (compared to the current build in the OP).



The OA is immobilization against any marked target. Have a Feyslaughter weapon(which isn't item independent, but usually reasonably easy to obtain in most games) and basically, no marked target can escape you unless you haven't hit them in the turn. Jagged is the better choice unless you're worried about Teleporters, just to trigger the Resist 10.

The reason no Knightly Intercession is that I expect that the build is almost always having a use for the threat of an interrupt. That would likely change in Epic where the threat of encounter-long sanction is going to be amazing and with Rapid Combat Challenge multiple interrupts.

Finally, Dreadnought is all about negation of common effects. The defenses of the build won't be that bad, but negating 7-13 damage per attack most rounds at 11th which then goes up to 12-17 at 30th is about half as good as the dead revenant builds without being needing to do anything weird from a 'am I dead' standpoint.
The OA is immobilization against any marked target. Have a Feyslaughter weapon(which isn't item independent, but usually reasonably easy to obtain in most games) and basically, no marked target can escape you unless you haven't hit them in the turn. Jagged is the better choice unless you're worried about Teleporters, just to trigger the Resist 10.

What I meant was that you "only" have one interrupt punishment (CC) in paragon, while the Challenging Champion has both an interrupt and an OA punishment from the CoO f11. Besides the extra punishment, a major indirect effect is the build can more safely use other interrupt powers. Even though the OA punishment won't trigger on shifts, it's unlikely to become a problem since the enemy in question is probably dazed and thus unable to attack if it shifts.

The reason no Knightly Intercession is that I expect that the build is almost always having a use for the threat of an interrupt. That would likely change in Epic where the threat of encounter-long sanction is going to be amazing and with Rapid Combat Challenge multiple interrupts.

Seems perfectly reasonable.

Finally, Dreadnought is all about negation of common effects. The defenses of the build won't be that bad, but negating 7-13 damage per attack most rounds at 11th which then goes up to 12-17 at 30th is about half as good as the dead revenant builds without being needing to do anything weird from a 'am I dead' standpoint.

You should negate at least 3-7 (or 7-14 at 30th) anyway through HF (3-7 THP), VR (RA 3-7) and Ironwrought (RA 4/6). What does Dreadnought add on top of this worth the opportunity cost of your PP?

And I wouldn't call your defenses bad, but your AC is at -2 and your Ref at -4, ie 49(47) AC and 43 Ref at 30th (with the same/comparable feats and items as the Challenging Champion). I certainly don't see this as problematic in terms of the extra damage taken, but you do run a greater risk of eating negative effects, notably the stuff that can disrupt your defender mechanics, cannot easily be negated and regularly comes with vs. AC attacks (like forced movement, prone etc). (Your AC typically runs a 40% greater risk of being hit by a same level standard enemy at 30th (35% hit probability instead of 25%).) Still, this is mostly nitpicks, all things considered.
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
Gladiator theme, keep them close + weakening challenge = no one is going anywhere without lurker powers.

I'd prefer to keep this free from setting specific elements. Otherwise this is such a no-brainer in epic it almost goes without saying.


An argument could be made for that by looking at nearly every civilization and the fact that they have them.  It's not DS specific, it just happened to be published there.
Gladiator theme, keep them close + weakening challenge = no one is going anywhere without lurker powers.

I'd prefer to keep this free from setting specific elements. Otherwise this is such a no-brainer in epic it almost goes without saying.

An argument could be made for that by looking at nearly every civilization and the fact that they have them.  It's not DS specific, it just happened to be published there.

For what it's worth, I agree with you - one the basic principles of 4e was that everything is core. The problem is that CharOp in general as well as LFR don't agree with us, unfortunately with good cause IMO, so here we are. (This is the same reason I haven't included a Dragonmark, even though I see at least two that could've been awesome for this build.)
Test your PC builds' combat prowess and pit them against other builds at the Core Coliseum - the online D&D arena.
The OA is immobilization against any marked target. Have a Feyslaughter weapon(which isn't item independent, but usually reasonably easy to obtain in most games) and basically, no marked target can escape you unless you haven't hit them in the turn. Jagged is the better choice unless you're worried about Teleporters, just to trigger the Resist 10.

What I meant was that you "only" have one interrupt punishment (CC) in paragon, while the Challenging Champion has both an interrupt and an OA punishment from the CoO f11. Besides the extra punishment, a major indirect effect is the build can more safely use other interrupt powers. Even though the OA punishment won't trigger on shifts, it's unlikely to become a problem since the enemy in question is probably dazed and thus unable to attack if it shifts.



Weapon Master's Strike with a polearm means on a hit that if that target tries to shift, he provokes an OA. So if he wants to lock down multiple targets, he can do either of the following:
Mark all his targets, then swat an adjacent target with an MBA for immobilization. Ex: Move, Call of Challenge, then Charge. Target is immobilized on a hit.
DC one adjacent target, Weapon Master's Strike the one higher in initiative order.

I think something else to remember is that while you might have more interrupt options to help out, Divine Challenge is a minor action that's not the easiest to use once you hit Paragon. Do you really want to use DC over Call of Challenge in the 1st round? Or use Castigating Strike over Come And Get It? Or not use Certain Justice?

Finally, Dreadnought is all about negation of common effects. The defenses of the build won't be that bad, but negating 7-13 damage per attack most rounds at 11th which then goes up to 12-17 at 30th is about half as good as the dead revenant builds without being needing to do anything weird from a 'am I dead' standpoint.

You should negate at least 3-7 (or 7-14 at 30th) anyway through HF (3-7 THP), VR (RA 3-7) and Ironwrought (RA 4/6). What does Dreadnought add on top of this worth the opportunity cost of your PP?

And I wouldn't call your defenses bad, but your AC is at -2 and your Ref at -4, ie 49(47) AC and 43 Ref at 30th (with the same/comparable feats and items as the Challenging Champion). I certainly don't see this as problematic in terms of the extra damage taken, but you do run a greater risk of eating negative effects, notably the stuff that can disrupt your defender mechanics, cannot easily be negated and regularly comes with vs. AC attacks (like forced movement, prone etc). (Your AC typically runs a 40% greater risk of being hit by a same level standard enemy at 30th (35% hit probability instead of 25%).) Still, this is mostly nitpicks, all things considered.


Dreadnought means the build can end save-ends effects with a minor action and 10 hp. Yes, the build will eat more negative effects, but it can also get rid of them more easily. And while 17 hp might not be a huge difference from 13 at 30th(though I think it will still be very noticeable), it makes a much larger difference in paragon tier.
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