Future Deck to Beat

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Once RTR releases, what decks will be in the Top 8 most consistently? Would like to start building a deck but since i am new to the tournament scene, I am unsure as to which cards and combos are really going to take over a game.
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You should have posted this in the Standard Forum, this sub-forum is reserved for discussions about dominant decks in a format (as labeled by the thread name and first post that explains just what that deck to discuss is.) I can see where the confusion came from though


Honestly, even with all of the hosing floating around, I think BUG Control and GRB Midrange are going to be the initial decks to beat. GWU and RGW Aggro will probably stick around, and there will likely be some UWX Control decks floating around (which I will be playing). There will probably be a UX Tempo deck too, but it should have a harder time when every deck in the format has access to utility instants.


Hopefully there are a couple of sweet Search the City and Epic Experiment decks running around, but that seems unlikely. 

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R/B Zombies, Jund Zombies, and GW (ramp and aggro) decks.
R/B G/B Zombies.



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pretty sure zombies will come in three flavors, R/B, G/B and Jund. i know everyone jumped on the GB bandwagon but seriously i think RB is gonna be equal or better. i think dreadbore will prove better than abrupt decay, yeah it hits any permanent but what artifacts and enchantments out there with a 3 or less CMC are you afraid of? Lotleth troll i think is also overrated people have visions of discarding 2-3 gravecrawlers to pump him which will almost never happen sure you might get one maybe even two but that still doesnt make him a world beater and regeration might be nice but in an aggro deck you wont be holding back mana to regenerate and if you do it slows you down, mention that there are alot of exile effects to deal with. id much rather have access to aristocrat, bonfire and dreadbore i think.
Wow, kudos to ebontail. U may be one of 3 other people I've run into that understands how terrible lol troll is in aggro builds. Should take a look at the Jund zombies list for the Hartford 5k... Bahaha what a joke of a build
BG zombies will probably be the weakest of the flavors, jund proving strongest imo. BR + hastey plant and decay should prove difficult to deal with.

However, I think Miracles with tamimoo and jace 4 will be the decks to beat once the dust settles.

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Bant, both midrange and control, has the tools to effectively deal with most of the decks in the format, just due to the shear power level of some of the cards in there. Sure, it does not deal with top decked bonfires game one, but then again not much does, and it should do well against them post sideboard.
o.O Wonder what you guys are playing, GB Zombies has spent the last few days on a pretty interesting rampage. WU Humans and Jund Midrange/Ramp have been the "winning decks" because they're tearing Zombies apart. Frankly, this is looking like the GW Humans and BW Tokens massacres all over again- The top decks in the meta will be the ones that crush zombies, because so many people will insist on playing zombies for the occasional free win.
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This ain't the spot for this.  Standard General is the appropriate spot for this.  In the future, please make sure to post your threads in the proper location.
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Dreadbore is significantly worse thanAbrupt Decay in this format, mainly because it hits almost everything in the format at instant speed. But that doesn't mean GB Zombies is better than RB. Also, I agree that Lotleth Troll is heavily overrated and won't be very effective in the current zombie aggro archetype. RB will probably dominate in that sense, though I wouldn't rule Jund out.

I wish that UR draw-go would be a thing, but there are many things stacked against it (superfast format, Cavern of Souls, etc.). 
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Dreadbore is significantly worse thanAbrupt Decay in this format, mainly because it hits almost everything in the format at instant speed.



Jace, Tamiyo and Thrag however, are answered by Dreadbore and not Decay. Decay isn't bad, but it's not the removal you want in this format.
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Dreadbore is pretty good against control decks though, if they are variants that play only either big creatures or planeswalkers. The faster opponents deck is, the less useful is dreadbore. I have currently it as a sideboard card in my BR-aggro. Planeswalkers used to be a problem to aggro  decks, when control deck neutered aggrodecks creatures enough, and you couldn't attack or burn the walkers enough. Eventually allowing the walkers to take control of the game. Now aggro has a mana-efficient spell to just flat out killing planeswalkers. So cheap it easily plays around izzet charm or syncopate too.  

I don't think Ive seen abrupt decay been played at all yet in standard.. Sure it hits the o-rings and spheres, but so does golgari charm. Charm also regenerates your guys to supreme verdict(edit: and bonfire) and kills lingering souls tokens. Pretty obvious which has  more uses.

entreat the angels looks like a really good finisher at a glance, and doesn't have to worry about dreadbore as much, but deck playing entreat needs to  vary its wincons in the future or it will scoop to one resolved slaughter games.
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If you're running gravecrawler and slitherhead I don't feel like lotleth is terrible. I don't think he's a 4 of in most cases really and definitely not aggros centric in most cases but I can see a situation where you play a troll turn two and then turn three you're dicarding a crawler and a slitherhead to make him a 5/4 while putting a gravecrawler into play all for 1 mana. Meh. I wish I could just grind out a ton of games or at least watch some. At this point I have no idea what I want to do, but I know I won't be playing blue for once.

edit: and I feel abrupt decay has more impact against tokens than golgari charm in a lot of cases. Those anthems...
edit edit: or just abrupt decay and then golgari charm. Pretty much a board clear for the tokens. 
The whole idea that Lotleth Troll is terrible in any aggro/midrange deck baffles me... Maybe it's because this guy is still a card, and if it were in Modern, it'd probably get the nod over a few of our other friends (Goyf, Knight) in many decks... And Lotleth is almost better than the creature that says that "Snapcaster Mage isn't the best blue creature ever".
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Troll eats creatures in your hand, as an aggro deck, you want to make creature from your hand and use them as a recurring source of damage. If you're in GB, you get to run 8 solid three drops, which play badly with a 2 drop that needs you to pay B to keep it around.

Aggro decks want efficient threats, one mana for 2 power, three mana for a three power guy with built in shock that comes back for 4 power and another shock. Three mana comes into play tapped and attacking three power. Four mana four power evasion and haste etc. Troll doesn't fit in with these cards very well.

A lot of the SCG lists from the weekend were not very good, and everyone oon camera seems to have forgot how to play against an opponent with wraths. And the UWR deck doesn't feel very good in testing, you need to draw the right cards at the right time a lot, and this was shown in coverage where Todd had to draw the entreat in the opponents turn off of a think twice, and he did, or top deck the negate with a think twice in response etc. I've thrown the list around with a mate a bit, and it seems like the deck is always on the edge and one draw either way is game over.
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Troll eats creatures in your hand, as an aggro deck, you want to make creature from your hand and use them as a recurring source of damage. If you're in GB, you get to run 8 solid three drops, which play badly with a 2 drop that needs you to pay B to keep it around.


As the troll eats those creatures in your hand, they become a recurring source of damage by making a trampling creature bigger.  And when you're playing against removal, that damage goes farther than casting a non-regenerating creature would have.

I've said before (and probably will again) that keeping mana to regenerate Troll is worth messing up your curve.  Especially when you consider that the opponents you need regeneration against are likely playing board wipes, so you dont' want to overextend anyway.

Aggro decks want efficient threats, one mana for 2 power, three mana for a three power guy with built in shock that comes back for 4 power and another shock. Three mana comes into play tapped and attacking three power. Four mana four power evasion and haste etc. Troll doesn't fit in with these cards very well.


What about +1 power for 0 mana?  He has that.

What about +1 power for 0 mana?  He has that.



He actually also grows toughness, which is important against burn.. 
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The problem is, one power is less than two power, and sticking it on one body makes you more vulnerable. In a world where Tamiyo can tap it, Terminus can remove it, dead weight and slip can kill it, it starts looking a lot worse. Also Detention Sphere and Olivia are pretty good against it.

Also, holding back B really hurts the deck, because your late game is worse than most other decks. Those extra points of damage you could push through end up being lost and give your opponent the chance to drop a Thragtusk and all of a sudden you're looking pretty far behind on board. Whether your opponent is curving up to tamiyo and terminus, or Olivia and thragtusk, it's going to be better than your late game plays and you play right into their hands by regen'ing the troll and slowing yourself down.

Also, a lot of these troll decks are packing 22 land, which makes the extra B even more of a problem when trying to curve out.


In addition, burn doesn't care about that extra one toughness, because they can beat around it and burn over the top whilst you fail to commit relevant guys to the board as they drop lots of 2 power guys for one mana.
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If you discard a crawler you haven't lost anything anyways. And there is other stuff to discard which is almost as good anyways. I still think having more than one can be benificial in some decks. And if you're guaging what you're up against in a lot of situations you don't  have to hold back the black. so what if they burn off your troll if you used 2 crawlers to pump it? It was still a 2 mana 4/3 with trample. I'm definitely not saying it's a universally good card but I feel it'll be around in a few decks as standard gets shaken out. Definitely over played, but it's a card which is worth taking a look at in some decks.

If Crawler was your only one drop in hand, but holding onto it for a turn you've lost damage and tempo. Nothign else in the deck is as good to discard to the troll, because nothign else comes back. Sure you can scavenge your three drop, but that's it.

If you used two gravecrawlers to pump it? Statistically you need to see half your deck for that to happen.

To make it a good creature you need to pitch a couple of dudes, which means you have to pitch at least one guy for no value. Would you play a card that says "0, Instant, put a +1/+1 counter on target creature". I know I wouldn't, and that's what your turning every card you pitch into.

Now, if we're talking modern, Loltroll, Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, Squee, Golgari Thug, stinkweed imp, Life from the loam etc... THAT'S how to make the troll really good.
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Modern-troll good
Standard-troll bad.

It's like Cyrus is saying..and I don't know why ppl are not getting it, it's a TRAP!
Even in the control match, where I thought he might be useful, he was still garbage. It just never works out in your favor, and regen is next to useless. How many removal spells actually say kill? Terminus? No. Sphere? No. Ring? No. Slip? No. Dead weight? No.
It's just an irrelevant card for standard right now.
Statistically you'll draw into any card more than you'll see it in an opening hand. Definitely much better in modern but a lot of cards are that way. And there's a ton of removal that is kill. Abrupt Decay, Terminate, a lot of burn that's around. There is other stuff that discards fine with troll. Not a ton of stuff but I can see it. All I'm saying is that it's not worse to get a creature amd a +1/+1 counter over just a creature if you draw into it.

Troll is OR because it's nowhere near OP like a lot of people think, but it's not like there are zero uses for it.

Edit: And apparently both zombie decks in top 8 at SCG last weekend were running it as a 4 of.


Kibler bought 2000 daybreak rangers, the card must be amazing....

The issue it, Troll doesn't make the cut in standard, it's not about it not being overpowered, just not good enough. You want to hold on to your 2/1 for 2 mana you've dropped, that is sucking away B from you every turn, just becasue you might draw a gravecrawler?

We don't have the tools for the troll. What are the other things that are good to discard to it then? I'm curious?
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Veilborn Ghoul, any Scavenge creature that we can't use immediately, any high mana cost creature that we're going to resurrect in two turns with Unburial Rites, etc.
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Slitherhead, Gravecrawler, Dread Mangler? That's three targets which most likely you'll have four copies each, so it's a very likely scenario that you would get a card you can discard for the troll.

Even while Wild Mongrel is out it doesn't limit itself to "good" discard targets, and that's for until end of turn pump. And worst comes to worse, it's still a 2/1 body for two mana that's resistant to removal, much like Strangleroot Geist. 
Man, you two walked right into it.

If you need bad cards to make Lotleth Troll good then its what I love to call fallacious deckbuilding.

'Man, card a is great if I have card b. Card B is great when I have card A.'

This doesn't solve the problem that Card B is bad, and Card A is bad. Heck, they could be mediocre but you're nudging out individually solid cards to make a synergy work. Bad bad bad.

Slitherhead, bad. Veilborn Ghoul, bad.

Pitching Dreg Mangler to Lotleth Troll so you can scavenge it on turn 5? Why is this better than just casting it on turn 3 and netting out 9 damage by turn 5 versus scavenging for 5 mana to net 3 damage+3 from 3 swings from Troll = 6. Even if you still have a living creature to target?

Gravecrawler is the only justifiable pitch, but its better to play it. 

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Wooooow.  There's a LOT of wonky thinking being tossed around in here.  Niche and Cyrus are keeping it honest.  But these two statements really warrant addressing because they're so glaringly untrue.


I don't think Ive seen abrupt decay been played at all yet in standard.. Sure it hits the o-rings and spheres, but so does golgari charm. Charm also regenerates your guys to supreme verdict(edit: and bonfire) and kills lingering souls tokens. Pretty obvious which has  more uses.


Seriously?  Golgari Charm has more uses than Abrupt Decay?  Because Charm is hard removal against aggro creatures, doesn't hit anything of relevance that Decay doesn't, and if you're regenerating your BG team, they didn't need it anyway? 

Dreadbore is significantly worse thanAbrupt Decay in this format, mainly because it hits almost everything in the format at instant speed. RB will probably dominate in that sense, though I wouldn't rule Jund out.


Good spells are sorceries now.  Adjust.  Dreadbore is, on the whole, a MUCH more useful spell than Decay.  Decay is good and largely necessary, but Dreadbore is a house.  There isn't much right now that just kills any targetable creature.  AND it kills walkers?  Cheating.

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This doesn't solve the problem that Card B is bad, and Card A is bad. Heck, they could be mediocre but you're nudging out individually solid cards to make a synergy work. Bad bad bad.
 



just being silly

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Yeah but a two card combo with 52 other cards designed to make that happen isn't what we're discussing. Otherwise a fair point.

Discarding Dred Mangler to Lotleth Troll doesn't win the game on the spot unless your opponent is at 4 and your Troll is a 3/2. 

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Good spells are sorceries now.  Adjust.  Dreadbore is, on the whole, a MUCH more useful spell than Decay.  Decay is good and largely necessary, but Dreadbore is a house.  There isn't much right now that just kills any targetable creature.  AND it kills walkers?  Cheating.


"Killing walkers" isn't anything especially remarkable. Hell, even a hardcasted Bonfire or a Squire can do that. However, what is wholely remarkable about Abrupt Decay is that it can hit things like Detention Sphere.

Both cards are exceptional, and both cards should be run in varying card counts.
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Yeah but a two card combo with 52 other cards designed to make that happen isn't what we're discussing. Otherwise a fair point.

Discarding Dred Mangler to Lotleth Troll doesn't win the game on the spot unless your opponent is at 4 and your Troll is a 3/2. 



yea i know

i had an itch early on that RB zombies would be better since burn and better removal is just.... better over whatever green could offer.  i'd rather be faster than durdle with green cards. 

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Troll is good in Zombies because he's a 2-power guy for 2 with an evasion ability, regenerate, and an occasional upside that sometimes wins the game by itself.


You don't run it because it's broken, you run it because there aren't any two-drops for Zombies that are better. 
Ok, to move the thread past the Zombie issue, I don't think the UWr deck is a bad place to start even if it needs some adjustments, mostly diversifying its game. Entreat seems too unreliable as a wincon to me and as Zombies fade out as a tier 2 deck, the splash for Pillar of flame looks unnecessary.

How do you think UW control is going to evolve?
On the aggro side, which do you think is better, the midrange Selesnya builds or the WU aggro decks? The later trump the former but it is way too vulnerable to mass removal especially since it is uncounterable.
Is there anything red viable in the future? For some odd reason Bonfire of the Damned got ignored all of a sudden but it is still there to trump aggro mirrors. Is Gatecrash necessary to bring in the manabases for the red based decks?
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mono red adopts archwing dragon to combat all the sorcery speed removal in the format

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 For some odd reason Bonfire of the Damned got ignored all of a sudden but it is still there to trump aggro mirrors.


The problem with Bonfire is that it's an unreliable control card; when you're not miracleing it, it's pretty bad (as opposed to Terminus costing 6 mana, which is a lot but still better than Bonfire). Add to that the premier aggro deck of the format is Zombies, which has a lot of contingency plans in place for destroy effects. This is why Terminus is getting popular, while Supreme Verdict and Bonfire are tossed to sideboards at best. 
The mage formerly known as kedi. Team GFG - Goons From Ghana - Playing sweet decks since 2010 1:31 AM Nighthavk_: I'm actually playing B/r zombies 1:31 AM Battle7: nice 1:31 AM Nighthavk_: yeah it's pretty sweet really 1:31 AM Battle7: playing esper tokens 1:32 AM Nighthavk_: I like that deck 1:32 AM Battle7: it's sweet
The problem with Bonfire is that it's an unreliable control card; when you're not miracleing it, it's pretty bad (as opposed to Terminus costing 6 mana, which is a lot but still better than Bonfire). Add to that the premier aggro deck of the format is Zombies, which has a lot of contingency plans in place for destroy effects. This is why Terminus is getting popular, while Supreme Verdict and Bonfire are tossed to sideboards at best. 


Previously, any form of control involved creatures. Creatureless control exists. The ability to sweep one side is now negligible. That's the nutshell and ultimately "it".
lel♯ jenk♯ ∞


I'm the world's leading astrophysicist. You can trust me, because I said I was.
92827575 wrote:
57092228 wrote:
What's wrong with my formating?
you make paragraphs shorter than the page width
58280978 wrote:
Names that sam said were "the evil ones":
iamajellydonut glwiley kreewlin and every WizO