Gisela with Planeswalkers

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I control Gisela, Blade of Goldnight and a planeswalker. My opponent casts Lava Axe targeting me and wants to redirect the damage to my planeswalker. I can't choose to prevent half the damage to me, redirect the damage, then prevent half the remaining damage to my planeswalker, correct?

Similar situation: I control a Kitsune Palliator equipped with Pariah's Shield. My opponent casts Lava Axe targeting me. Can I apply the damage prevention shield on both me and the Palliator to the Axe's damage?
Rules Advisor
No on both. A damage prevention effect can only modify a damage event once. You can cut the damage in half either before or after the damage is redirected, but not both. 
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you cannot apply the replacement effect more than once, correct
while you can choose the order in which to apply the replacement effects because you are the affected player the end result is always that Tibalt gets 3 to the face

similar with Kitsune Palliator and Pariah
you can only replace 1 damage total from the Lava Axe
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All right, thanks.
Rules Advisor

similar with Kitsune Palliator and Pariah
you can only replace 1 damage total from the Lava Axe



I'm not so sure you can't prevent 2 damage in this scenario.  Both the player and the creature has a prevention effect that prevents the next point of damage.  The pariah sets up a replacement effect that has all damage dealt to the creature instead of the player.  So when the lava axe goes to resolve it has two effects attempting to effect it, one is the prevention effect and the other is the replacement effect.  If the player chooses to apply the prevention effect first that prevents 1 damage and now only 4 points is being dealt, then the replacement effect applies and puts the damage on the creature.  But the creature also has a prevention effect that prevents the next one damage so that effect would apply and prevent one damage meaning the lava axe would only deal 3 damage.

DCI Level 2 Judge

Rockford, Illinois


similar with Kitsune Palliator and Pariah
you can only replace 1 damage total from the Lava Axe



I'm not so sure you can't prevent 2 damage in this scenario.  Both the player and the creature has a prevention effect that prevents the next point of damage.  The pariah sets up a replacement effect that has all damage dealt to the creature instead of the player.  So when the lava axe goes to resolve it has two effects attempting to effect it, one is the prevention effect and the other is the replacement effect.  If the player chooses to apply the prevention effect first that prevents 1 damage and now only 4 points is being dealt, then the replacement effect applies and puts the damage on the creature.  But the creature also has a prevention effect that prevents the next one damage so that effect would apply and prevent one damage meaning the lava axe would only deal 3 damage.



You can only prevent 1 here for the same reason the OP was correct about the way Gisela works with the planeswalker redirect. If you were correct that it applying to a new object == damage prevention can apply again, then you could cut the damage in half twice with Gisela + planeswalkers.
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You can only prevent 1 here for the same reason the OP was correct about the way Gisela works with the planeswalker redirect. If you were correct that it applying to a new object == damage prevention can apply again, then you could cut the damage in half twice with Gisela + planeswalkers.



There is a difference, the Kitsune Palliator has an activated ability that creates a prevention effect for each creature and player.  Gisela's prevention effect is only for one damage event and is a single effect.  Even though the prevention effects from kitsune were created from the same source, each one is a different prevention effect so it's not reapplying the same effect twice.

DCI Level 2 Judge

Rockford, Illinois

There is a difference, the Kitsune Palliator has an activated ability that creates a prevention effect for each creature and player. Gisela's prevention effect is only for one damage event and is a single effect. Even though the prevention effects from kitsune were created from the same source, each one is a different prevention effect so it's not reapplying the same effect twice.

I think you are correct that you can prevent 2 damage with Kitsune Palliator's effect in the case where the damage is redirected with Pariah. Here is the Gatherer ruling.
Kitsune Palliator's ability creates prevention shields for every creature and player when it resolves. It doesn't affect creatures that enter the battlefield (or become creatures) later.

Kitsune Palliator is a rare case though. Most prevention effects do not work like that.
I'd like to see an [o] ruling on this one, then--rulings aren't always completely accurate, and I read that ruling more as focusing on the fact that it doesn't apply to new creatures later on.

Then again, I don't see why it works that way. It's not changing the characteristics of anything, so I don't see why it's not something that applies for the rest of the turn, to any creatures that exist when the damage is dealt whether or not they were there when the ability resolved. Can someone point to the rule that makes that ruling correct?
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I guess the argument would go like this:

Gisela's ability affects the source of the damage. Regardless of how the damage is being passed around, she can only affect that damage once.

The Kitsune's ability affects each creature and player being dealt damage, so if the same damage event passes through multiple creatures and/or players, each one can apply its individual prevention shield.
Rules Advisor
I agree. The ruling on Kitsune Palliator is contrary to the CompRules (specifically 611.2c)

The effect neither modifies the characteristics nor changes the controller of the affected objects and therefore must modify the rules of the game. Creatures that enter later during the turn should be likewise affected by the prevention shield.

615.10 seems to indicate that there are multiple shields created so each could apply separately as needed, thus I think the shield on the player and on the creature could both be invoked as two similar but distinct prevention effects.

615.10 should be updated to say untargeted creatures and/or players to account for the Kitsune's ability.

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There are only three cards that work this way: Kitsune Palliator, Samite Censer-Bearer, and Wojek Apothecary. Samite Censer-Bearer has a ruling similar to Kitsune Palliator's, so that is definately the way the ability is supposed to work.

The ruling does not contradict rule 611.2c, because rule 611.2c says that "it can affect objects that weren't affected when that continuous effect began" not that it must.

There could be new rule that makes it easier to recognize this type of ability. I now see that there is a rule that defines this type of ability: rule 615.10.

Tangle is a good comparison. When you look at that card, it seems obvious that it only prevents from untapping the creatures that were attacking at the time Tangle resolved.
So with Tangle, if I cast world at war and attacked with more creatures, the Tangle wouldn't affect these new attacking creatures?

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DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

So with Tangle, if I cast world at war and attacked with more creatures, the Tangle wouldn't affect these new attacking creatures?

Correct.
the end result is always that Tibalt gets 3 to the face

Three? How do you math this?

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5/2 rounded up is 3
and that 3 is prevented...

so yeah, it's 2 ;)
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Here's an example that will (perhaps) make the way Kitsune Palliator works more palatable and more intuitive: Your opponent casts Lava Axe, and responds with Lightning Bolt, both targeting you. The bolt resolves first, then the axe.

You could apply the Kitsune's prevention effect to the bolt on you, then Pariah's Shield, redirecting, then the prevention effect on the Kitsune. The bolt does 1 damage and the axe does 5.

Or, you could apply the redirect first to the bolt, then the Kitsune's prevention, then apply your prevention to the axe. The bolt will deal 2 and the axe 4.