9/20/2012 TD: "Beware! The Best Breaker of Both Worlds!"

20 posts / 0 new
Last post
This thread is for discussion of this week's Top Decks, which goes live Thursday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Question: Why would someone play Scalding Tarn in a deck with no Mountains?
Wouldn't Islands be "strictly better"?
Autocarding
Please Please Please Autocard/// / / / [c]Protean Hydra[/c] => Protean Hydra / / / I can't read the cards you reference without it... / Well, ok, I CAN read the cards, but it involves opening Gatherer, looking your card up by name, hoping it's spelled right, and... I'm just too lazy to do it, alright? Please Autocard.

I assume you're talking about the Second Sunrise decklist from Jacob's article?  Because this is Mike Flores' thread, and he didn't mention it at all.


Second Sunrise combo decks need to churn through a bunch of cards, hoping to draw more trinkets and Sunrises to keep the combo going.  The last thing they want to draw after "going off" is a bunch of land.  So playing fetchlands can be worth it purely to pull islands out of the deck so you won't draw them later.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

"You know all these cool graveyard effects we've been giving you in the last block and now this set with the Golgari? Don't you ever even think about playing those cards, you miserable lout."
                                                                                                                           -Wizards of the Coast

I know, those cool graveyard effects would get out of hand otherwise, but jeez, too much hate, and suddenly they're no good! 
Profile picture by Mackenzie Schubert www.plaincomics.com
Why not reprint Light of Day too? Creature-based black decks can just Duress it, so it totally leads to fun matchups. 
The thing with graveyard stratagies is that unless you make very strong hate cards for it, it doesn't have answers at all. Against creatures decks, you cna run creature kill and mass removal [though admittedly, sometimes that is less effective], but unless you have a card to specifically target the graveyard, you can't do anything about it.

That, and the whole 'once bitten, twice shy' thing.
Man, good thing we have this. Without it, we'd have to settle for Grafdigger's Cage. Or Groundseal. Or that new red two-drop. Or Tormod's Crypt. Or...

The funniest part is that this is the second graveyard hoser they've deemed worthy of a preview article in this set. Guys, this stuff just isn't that exciting. I guarantee no one is thinking, "Man, now I can't wait to get my hands on RTR... it's got more graveyard hate!"
The thing with graveyard stratagies is that unless you make very strong hate cards for it, it doesn't have answers at all. Against creatures decks, you cna run creature kill and mass removal [though admittedly, sometimes that is less effective], but unless you have a card to specifically target the graveyard, you can't do anything about it.

That, and the whole 'once bitten, twice shy' thing.

There's plenty of "fair" graveyard hate published in RTR, from Cremate to Dryad Militant to Ash Zealot. I certainly wouldn't call Dryad Militant anything but strong. 

Rest in Peace combines complete shutdown with near-irremovability by some of the hosed decks - hence the comparison to Light of Day. Two mana spells that win the game are cool in Legacy, but this is the sort of hoser that I'd thought Design had forsworn.
I certainly wouldn't call Dryad Militant anything but strong.



I would. It doesn't have the human type so it doesn't synergize with Innistrad's white human aggro deck like Elite Vanguard at least did.
Which was already a shaky include as 2/1 for 1 just isn't all that powerful these days.
Plus that this ability does absolutely nothing against the vast majority of decks.  

Now I'm not saying I actually will, it sure is a strong card, but not nearly as strong as some doomsayers think.

Rest in Peace combines complete shutdown with near-irremovability by some of the hosed decks - hence the comparison to Light of Day. Two mana spells that win the game are cool in Legacy, but this is the sort of hoser that I'd thought Design had forsworn.

 

What they have forsworn is strong hosers for a broad category, like a color or creatures. What they'll still print is strong hosers for narrow strategies. 
Gimme four! This card is so awesome! I am positively sick of the Thought Scour/Runechanters Pike combo, for which this was undoubtedtly a solution card[:D]. This will render Snapcaster Mage useless against the white heavy decks I foresee running in the new Standard. This also makes mill out a viable strategy because "discard seven cards" with Mind Sculpt becomes "exile seven cards".
"You know all these cool graveyard effects we've been giving you in the last block and now this set with the Golgari? Don't you ever even think about playing those cards, you miserable lout."
                                                                                                                           -Wizards of the Coast

I know, those cool graveyard effects would get out of hand otherwise, but jeez, too much hate, and suddenly they're no good! 



With regard to "new" Standard, Rest in Peace can "rest in peace" to (1) Abrupt Decay and (2) Golgari Charm.

Unanswered, it can be fairly devastating for graveyard-centric decks... Though, with the card answers I just mentioned, I'll stay optimistic and look at Rest in Peace as an art-flavorful, white CMC2 Tormod's Crypt that hates upon the caster's graveyard as well. Good times.
What they have forsworn is strong hosers for a broad category, like a color or creatures. What they'll still print is strong hosers for narrow strategies. 


That's exactly why Rest in Peace makes me mad: it's not a narrow hoser. It permanently shuts down anything remotely graveyard-related, from Rancor to Strangleroot Geist to Splinterfright (and that's just green cards with trample), because it's both a Leyline effect and a Tormod's Crypt effect.

The only rationale I can see for printing this at all is a serious FFL mistake involving a dominant Splinterfright / Lotleth Troll deck. Grafdigger's Cage, Ground Seal, Dryad Militant and Ash Zealot are pretty good against Burning Vengeance and Snapcaster Mage, but only Tormod's Crypt does anything against dead creatures; Rest in Peace, on the other hand, turns the deck into 4 Abrupt Decay and 30 blank cards.
What they have forsworn is strong hosers for a broad category, like a color or creatures. What they'll still print is strong hosers for narrow strategies. 


That's exactly why Rest in Peace makes me mad: it's not a narrow hoser. It permanently shuts down anything remotely graveyard-related, from Rancor to Strangleroot Geist to Splinterfright (and that's just green cards with trample), because it's both a Leyline effect and a Tormod's Crypt effect.

The only rationale I can see for printing this at all is a serious FFL mistake involving a dominant Splinterfright / Lotleth Troll deck. Grafdigger's Cage, Ground Seal, Dryad Militant and Ash Zealot are pretty good against Burning Vengeance and Snapcaster Mage, but only Tormod's Crypt does anything against dead creatures; Rest in Peace, on the other hand, turns the deck into 4 Abrupt Decay and 30 blank cards.



Hosing Rancor and Strangleroot Geist in a monogreen aggro deck is not the definition of 'strong hoser' in a way that 'destroy all forests' is. 
Yes there are a lot of cards this affects. But the decks this truly hoses are niche decks. 
Golgari. A guild that has recieved enough hate for a mechanic they technically don't do (quickly paid, unlimited uses per turn, can be done instantly and at times is free) that it could be enough to kill them off. With R:COG out of standard but not out of minds, graveyard hate is popular. Very popular. Some of it does not seem justified. 
   Rest in Peace does something quite a few cards like to do now, except better; ruin Golgari. Rakdos Charm is another example, able to exile the opponents graveyard. 
  The whole guilds philosophy (extreme recycling, "waste not, want not") seems to inspire such rage that I have only seen twice directed to actual recycling organisations, but for equally illogical reasoning. That this is overpowered.
  We get the Azorius' Detain ; and ability that disrupts aggro decks (Rackdos and Golgari, for example) by basically saying "No, not now. I want some more  time". 
  The Rackdos get Unleash; an ability that gives extra power for a reasonably common battle plan (at least where I play) for aggro decks. It is fast. Fast enough to over power slower paced decks. Like Golgari.
  The Selesnya get Populate; an ability that works wonders with their large elemental token generating abilities. Big creatures. With relative speed. Lots of big creatures very soon after that. It doesn't need a one-time-only effect, like being exiled, nor a restriction, like in the graveyard. This is good!
  The Izzet get Overload; an ability that basically makes something a threat multiple times. That isn't overpowered. It is fast, unpreventable, and certainly not wasted on otherwise low priority cards. They can return every creature to the players hand, destroy every non-fatty and ignore such simple things like Hexproof. Izzet have an answer; Yes
  Oh, and almost everyone has Graveyard hate. 4 Guilds can use Rest in Peace, Rackdos have it in their charm, and Everyone can use it with the new artifact Nihil Spellbomb lets the deed be done with one mana. Any colour. One mana. Against Golgari?
  The Golgari get Scaveng, and ability you have to ask permision to use. Ask it with a smile, and you could get +3/+3 on a single creature. Not bad. But don't make any mistakes. Don't target the wrong creature. Don't get it killed. If you can, make sure it has hexproof, shroud, and protection from everything. Regenerate wouldn't be too bad either. Triskellion? Out of standard. Return from exile? Doesn't exist. Reliability? A myth. 
 I thought Golgari was about recycling. This seems more like a nuclear power plant about to tip over and be destroyed. We don't have flashback any more. We don't have reliable resurrection. We certainly don't have dredge.  We don't actually have recycling, come to think. 

I used to joke with my twin, that the first set would be an apology, the second would be everyone beating on Golgari's boney hide, with the result being Golgari getting broke in the third set. Maybe the last bit is up to debate.  Now it is almost as if the Izzet are asking questions, and producing answers, about and to threats that don't actually exist. Izzet Golgari? No. 

Why play Golgari in Return to Ravnica?
Why play Golgari in Return to Ravnica?



Because there is only room for 15 sideboard cards and Rest in Peace likely won't be worth a slot.
What are we talking about here anyway? Limited, Standard, Block, Casual? 

I assume you're talking about the Second Sunrise decklist from Jacob's article?  Because this is Mike Flores' thread, and he didn't mention it at all.


Second Sunrise combo decks need to churn through a bunch of cards, hoping to draw more trinkets and Sunrises to keep the combo going.  The last thing they want to draw after "going off" is a bunch of land.  So playing fetchlands can be worth it purely to pull islands out of the deck so you won't draw them later.



Thanks, I guess I posted in the wrong article after all. I must have posted in the right one first, because I thought it was wrong, deleted and moved it. Anyway... Thanks for the insight, I've been confused by that situation before, Evolving Wilds in a mono colored deck... It just gets my goat.
Autocarding
Please Please Please Autocard/// / / / [c]Protean Hydra[/c] => Protean Hydra / / / I can't read the cards you reference without it... / Well, ok, I CAN read the cards, but it involves opening Gatherer, looking your card up by name, hoping it's spelled right, and... I'm just too lazy to do it, alright? Please Autocard.
 I remember a time when I played magic to have fun, and interact with other players, and when there was a cool set mechanic, I could build a deck around it.

These days, I don't get to block, I don't get to play permission, I don't get to target creatures, I don't get to play with set mechanics, and people keep stealing cards from my hand.

See, I think it's fun when both players have stuff to do, make the right blocks, counter some of the worst spells, counter counters even, flash stuff back from the graveyard.

It's less fun when people are just playing bigger and bigger creatures each turn with "I invalidate deck X" on them, and then it's a battle of who draws just the right amount of lands! html_removed html_removed
html_removed
html_removed
Golgari. A guild that has recieved enough hate for a mechanic they technically don't do (quickly paid, unlimited uses per turn, can be done instantly and at times is free) that it could be enough to kill them off. With R:COG out of standard but not out of minds, graveyard hate is popular. Very popular. Some of it does not seem justified. 
   Rest in Peace does something quite a few cards like to do now, except better; ruin Golgari. Rakdos Charm is another example, able to exile the opponents graveyard. 
  The whole guilds philosophy (extreme recycling, "waste not, want not") seems to inspire such rage that I have only seen twice directed to actual recycling organisations, but for equally illogical reasoning. That this is overpowered.
  We get the Azorius' Detain ; and ability that disrupts aggro decks (Rackdos and Golgari, for example) by basically saying "No, not now. I want some more  time". 
  The Rackdos get Unleash; an ability that gives extra power for a reasonably common battle plan (at least where I play) for aggro decks. It is fast. Fast enough to over power slower paced decks. Like Golgari.
  The Selesnya get Populate; an ability that works wonders with their large elemental token generating abilities. Big creatures. With relative speed. Lots of big creatures very soon after that. It doesn't need a one-time-only effect, like being exiled, nor a restriction, like in the graveyard. This is good!
  The Izzet get Overload; an ability that basically makes something a threat multiple times. That isn't overpowered. It is fast, unpreventable, and certainly not wasted on otherwise low priority cards. They can return every creature to the players hand, destroy every non-fatty and ignore such simple things like Hexproof. Izzet have an answer; Yes
  Oh, and almost everyone has Graveyard hate. 4 Guilds can use Rest in Peace, Rackdos have it in their charm, and Everyone can use it with the new artifact Nihil Spellbomb lets the deed be done with one mana. Any colour. One mana. Against Golgari?
  The Golgari get Scaveng, and ability you have to ask permision to use. Ask it with a smile, and you could get +3/+3 on a single creature. Not bad. But don't make any mistakes. Don't target the wrong creature. Don't get it killed. If you can, make sure it has hexproof, shroud, and protection from everything. Regenerate wouldn't be too bad either. Triskellion? Out of standard. Return from exile? Doesn't exist. Reliability? A myth. 
 I thought Golgari was about recycling. This seems more like a nuclear power plant about to tip over and be destroyed. We don't have flashback any more. We don't have reliable resurrection. We certainly don't have dredge.  We don't actually have recycling, come to think. 

I used to joke with my twin, that the first set would be an apology, the second would be everyone beating on Golgari's boney hide, with the result being Golgari getting broke in the third set. Maybe the last bit is up to debate.  Now it is almost as if the Izzet are asking questions, and producing answers, about and to threats that don't actually exist. Izzet Golgari? No. 

Why play Golgari in Return to Ravnica?



As a player who will play some sort of Golgari-flavored Zombie deck post-rotation (and planned to do so long before everyone jumped on the bandwagon), I don't see the guild being hated upon THAT much. Yes, there is indeed a good portion of graveyard hate, however I think that Golgari Charm, Abrupt Decay, etc will be good sideboard cards to fight against said 'hate.'

What I think I am beginning to see and what I am continuing to hope for is a post-rotation Standard that isn't just two to three decks. It seems like there will be a good variance and provide a more enjoyable and fresh Standard scene.

Honestly, I think Rakdos (save a  few cards such as Dreadbore, Slaughter Games, Rakdos' Return, and the 2/1 Haste CMC2) is the weakest of the five.
I like this card much better than Ground Seal. Sure, it doesn't draw a card but this can't be gotten around like the other graveyard hate cards. And Golgari isn't even the most targeted deck with this card: UW Delver is. With this, they can no longer use Snapcaster mage for value, have the resilience of Moorland Haunt or finish the long game with Runechanter's Pike. This couldn't be said about any other GY hate card. Some sort of white control would be very interested in this card. Zombies, the other tier 1 Standard deck, also gets seriously hosed by this. Let's see if white can put it to good use, although I fear it could end being played in UW control, which isn't really a 180 degree change of the enviroment.
If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited
Rest in peace is very splashable for a Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obediance combo deck.  The only thing holding that deck back was 4 Leylines not being enough.  Now you can splash this in the same color that gives you enlightened tutor for helm, as well as swords/disenchant for things like pithing needle or the pithing needle creature.

I see some potential here for shennanigans. 
Sign In to post comments