EDH Ban List Changes: September 2012

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Banned: Primeval Titan, Worldfire

Unbanned as a card in the deck: Kokusho, the Evening Star

Banned as a Commander: Kokusho, the Evening Star

Full ban list here: mtgcommander.net/rules.php

My thoughts: 
Worldfire, much like Sway of the Stars, was headed straight for the chopping block in Commander as part of an abusive combo that is easy to put together.  Perhaps in future sets, there may be new cards to interact with the combo, but for the present, it's banned.

Primeval Titan, on the other hand, was always going to hit the chopping block but took his time getting there. I'm a bit surprised it took this long. He's the one titan everyone loves playing, and if you were playing green in Commander, you played Primeval Titan (and ways to put him in play). If he searched for basic lands instead of non-basic lands, I think he stays legal. However, the ability to search for Maze of Ith and Strip Mine meant that he was always going to be an abusive, one-sided creature whose sole purpose is to let a player win with lands. Since rare lands are often the most expensive cards around, this often produced a monetary gap between players. I have seen this misattributed as a skill gap. Money is not skill. 

Kokusho was always a card that I felt had a place in Commander. He works well with Living Death themed decks and Rite of Replication. At this point, neither strategy should surprise anyone. Being banned as a commander means that decks with Cabal Coffers can't just cast him and sacrifice him every turn for as long as they want. Gotta be a little more creative than that. Creativity is good for every format.
Are you effing kidding me?!  Primeval Titan?!  How effing stupid!  And Kokusho is unbanned?!  This blows, and I don't think my playgroup will honor it.

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Are you effing kidding me?!  Primeval Titan?!  How effing stupid!  And Kokusho is unbanned?!  This blows, and I don't think my playgroup will honor it.



As someone who has played EDH for years now, I can definitely see where they are coming from with the Titan. Not sure about Kokusho. They unbanned Worldgorger Dragon a little bit ago, but I haven't seen it make a significant impact in the metagames I'm in.
I play the Titan as a mana fixer not in the degenerate ways that you are talking about.  Kinda sad to see it go, but I understand the reasoning.  And my play group is super anal about the EDH rules so got to do, what you got to do.
BS

Primeval titan only highlighted decks that weren't up to snuff.

This is a ban I will not be honoring.

3DH4LIF3

You ban Primeval and unban Kokusho? I can't see the logic behind that. Primeval is a good card, but it never broke the games that I went against it. As for unbanning Kokusho, that just leaves the game open to his degenerate combos again. As a card in the deck, it will be even easier to set up his shenanigans. 

It feels like the banning is less logic and more of just breaking down the game even more. Now that Kokusho is unbanned everyone will be subject to his degenerate combos.

The only card I agree with is Worldfire. That's just unfun all around. 
I have only been playing commander for about 7 months now and in most of the games I have played, primeval titan was a game changer.
Prime time changed games with abusive decks in them (the way koko does), and games with a severely mismatched power levels.

If you lose to prime time in a multiplayer game some of the decks being played suck (relatively speaking).

3DH4LIF3

Its true. There have been times when Primeval Titan has hit the field, but he never broke the game. He either got stolen, cloned, or revived from the grave by someone else. 

But I don't think his ban will stick. Far too many people love the card to follow the ban. 
I may have to build a cromat banned list deck...

3DH4LIF3

You gotta be kidding me... I only play EDH and paid $15 for a [C=Primeval Titan]Prime Time[/C]. Now you're telling me it's gone?
It's [C]Sundering Titan[/C] all over again... I think the rules comittee is against me  
The issue I've found with Primeval Titan isn't as much about being overpowered as it is about being overplayed. When over half the table is focused on getting the same creature into play EVERY game, things get stale. IMHO, the thing that makes this format fun is the variance and chaos that comes with 100 card decks. When people do the same thing over and over, the game becomes less fun. And keeping the format fun is what the ban list is about, right? 
The issue I've found with Primeval Titan isn't as much about being overpowered as it is about being overplayed. When over half the table is focused on getting the same creature into play EVERY game, things get stale. IMHO, the thing that makes this format fun is the variance and chaos that comes with 100 card decks. When people do the same thing over and over, the game becomes less fun. And keeping the format fun is what the ban list is about, right? 



The ban list does nothing for the format but limit degenerate cards. As far as "variance" there is barely any. You see the same cards being run in almost every deck. Phyrexian Arena, Consecrated Sphynix, Sensei's Top, Mana Reflection, Eldrazi, Demonic Tutor, Damnation, and most of the cards on the staple list. There is no variance, just a few cards that may change between decks. But through all the decklists I've seen, the same cards always pop up.
I dunno about Prime Titan being banned...... Not really sure why, yeah for me, he's excellent ramp due to Temple and rav bounce lands, and is an excellent Rite of Replication target, Worldfire I guess would be dumb, but most EDH I play is 1v1.

I heard stories of Kokusho though......... lolreanimate became the game with him from what I've heard, so instead of ramp, we have players constantly swinging life totals instead? This is about the only ban I disagree with (sans Griselbrand being banned in decks, but not as a general)
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I can sort of see Primeval Titan being banned, considering the "can get non-basic lands" thing, but I'm surprised no one has considered Hatred for the ban-list. 

Hatred is one of the most annoying and unfair spells to play against in EDH. If you don't block an attacking general that came out before turn 5 (or less), you  could defeat someone on turn 5.
There are a lot of cheap black EDH generals that have a little bit of evasion (Olivia Voldaren, Mirri the Cursed, Zur the Enchanter etc.) or aren't usually blocked because they aren't seen as a threat (like Sygg, River Cutthroat) or you know it's better to not block it (like Glissa the Traitor) that'd take advantage from Hatred.

Even without considering General damage, if you're playing one-on-one, attacking with a 1/1 or an unblockable creature on turn 5 can immediately win you the game.  
With Recurring Nightmare still on the banlist Kokusho poses no more threat than any of the other degeneracy already in the format. I've always been an advocate for it's unbanning.

I can see their reasoning for the titan due to it always finding Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Cabal Coffers which is quite game-breaking especially with Deserted Temple as well but I refuse to support this banning. It doesn't break games as badly as Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Exploration, Burgeoning, or Necropotence.

I can completely understand Worldfire.
Exactly. Koko is pretty much equivalent with prime time.

Ubiquity is not a reason for banning. I think this round was more about appeasement- old players want to play koko again. New players are bored of primeval.

3DH4LIF3

I can see their reasoning for the titan due to it always finding Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Cabal Coffers which is quite game-breaking especially with Deserted Temple as well but I refuse to support this banning.


That seems more like a reason to ban Cabal Coffers than Primeval.

I may have to build a cromat banned list deck...



Do it. DO IT.

I fully support this endeavor.
Or ban urborg.

Coffers is ok, but urborg sets it off in non-monoblack.

3DH4LIF3

I'm another of those that uses Prime Time exclusively for ramp and not for finding sick lands like the ones listed above.  After spending quite a bit to obtain a few, the banning irks me quite a bit.  This is one I may not honor.
I played in a game Monday night that I normally don't play in due to it being Monday night and all, and I happened to win due to Rampaging Baloths and Primeval Titan. It wasn't degenerate, just luck on my part, and too much damage too fast for my opponents (it was a Mayael deck, and it did what it normally should do...). Normally, Titan gets me good lands when he hits, if he gets through counterspells that is, and then he might get one good swing in. That bump in my mana curve though can change the game, and if I were one to play degenerative insta-win combos it would be just wrong to do that. But, I don't; I just like a big, efficient creature that helps further my goals in the game. Titan is extremely powerful, and easily abused.

I don't like the ban, but I'll work around it. There has to be something else I can use that is either big and trampley or gets lands, or does something else fun.
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Let's remember one thing here, guys: Commander/EDH is a casual format.  The ban list, while followed by much of the player base, is merely a suggestion.  I will not acknowledge the ban of Primeval Titan, and I don't think I'm alone.  As nilehoim stated before, ubiquity is not cause for a ban.  It's just not.

I feel that this is a huge error in judgment on the part of the rules committee, and ultimately constitutes diminished credibility.  There are plenty of degenerate cards and combos that are still legal, and much more damaging than Primeval Titan.  This is a shortsighed appeasement of a vocal minority of whiners.

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Let's remember one thing here, guys: Commander/EDH is a casual format.  The ban list, while followed by much of the player base, is merely a suggestion.  I will not acknowledge the ban of Primeval Titan, and I don't think I'm alone.  As nilehoim stated before, ubiquity is not cause for a ban.  It's just not.

I feel that this is a huge error in judgment on the part of the rules committee, and ultimately constitutes diminished credibility.  There are plenty of degenerate cards and combos that are still legal, and much more damaging than Primeval Titan.  This is a shortsighed appeasement of a vocal minority of whiners.



I agree with that completely.  Prime Time is a great card that, as it is in every other format it is played, pushes the level for its drop slot.  However, unless you are using it to grab a degenerate combo it is at best a really good tutor.  The only time that I play him that he borders degenerate is in my Riku deck when I have so much tap for 2 mana lands, or if I entwine Tooth and Nail for he and Jin-Gitaxias and nab reliquary tower, and even then there are worse things I could grab in that deck.  I won't be honoring this ban, much like my group doesn't honor the Gris ban.
Exactly. Koko is pretty much equivalent with prime time. Ubiquity is not a reason for banning...



First, Koko is now where near the equivalent of Prime Time, one has a ETB effect in addition to when it attacks the other is when it dies.

Second, many of us saw this comming and it is no big surprise. If you have a Prime Time in your deck you grab "degenerate combo" cards because you want to win. People can say that they don't do it because it is a casual format, but if your back is against the wall and you can get the combo out you will, BOOM just stopped being casual and became competetive. Why, because the next time you play with that group someone will find a way to hose you or your play and then the next time someone else will find a way to hose that other guy....  That is generally the progression of most playgroups/metas.

Third, agree with or not, there is nothing stating you have to follow the recommendation from the RC, "

The banned list for Commander is designed not to balance competitive play but to help shape in the minds of its fans the vision held by its founders and Rules Committee. That vision is to create variable, interactive, and epic multiplayer games where memories are made, to foster the social nature of the format, and to underscore that competition is not the format's primary goal. It sets out to define the parameters of official Commander while recognizing that local groups may wish to modify things to suit their own needs."

I don't see Prime Time as a "NEED" persay, but he did make things easier for everyone who played him.

I was also hit by a banning at the worst possible time, I purchased a Griselbrand, and while in transit he became banned. I thought it might happen, but took a chance on abusing him like everyone else did. Live and learn. 



 

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Personally,

  I think the ban list is a load of malarky.  A couple of others in my group have started using LoA since I have as well.  I generally adhered to it before, but I'm getting less and less in to it.  As long as there isn't competitive play with the ban list, then why do I have to observe it?  Unless someone in the group really wants me to stop using a card, and it has happened, I'll only stop when the format becomes competitively observed and sanctioned as Commander.

Second, many of us saw this comming and it is no big surprise. If you have a Prime Time in your deck you grab "degenerate combo" cards because you want to win.


Aside from the aforementioned Urborg/Coffers, what degenerate combo cards can the titan grab?
What "degenerate combo cards" is primeval titan grabbing in commander exactly?

And urborg+coffers is not a degenerate combo..  
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I personally agree with the ban of Primeval Titan, the games always turn into who can steal clone or reanimate him when he hits the board. There are quite a few creatures that this happens with but primeval seems to show his face the most. Then there is Consecrated Sphinx who definately should have been on the chopping block before Primeval. As much as I love Kokusho, the Evening Star it will be the exact same thing as I just said with Primeval.

My commander playgroup of about 15-20 follows the banned list, but I can see alot of them not wanting to follow this one. The only thing I'm going to say is if they are keeping their Primeval's in I will be putting my Griselbrand's back in.
Urborg+Coffers is pretty damn degenerate...

Inkmoth + Wolf Run is also pretty degenerate just because poison sucks in EDH.

Gaea's Cradle, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (if any can afford it or plays with proxies), Urza's lands, Dark Depths (potentially), Vesuva (with any of the mentioned nasty cards) all can be pretty degenerate if you can reliably build around them.

And let's not forget that ramping up two mana every turn is pretty broken on it's own.

I'll add a note on Koko.  They tested bringin it back pretty throughly for a while.  It didn't have the same effect on the game as it has had in the past, making it not that big of a threat any more.

I do agree that Consecrated Sphinx needs to go.  That card is damn annoying...
Diamond Valley
Volrath's Stronghold
Strip Mine
Maze of Ith
Kor Haven
Yavimaya Hollow

etc.

Not really degenerate, but are fantastic utility lands.
Let's remember one thing here, guys: Commander/EDH is a casual format.  The ban list, while followed by much of the player base, is merely a suggestion.  I will not acknowledge the ban of Primeval Titan, and I don't think I'm alone.  As nilehoim stated before, ubiquity is not cause for a ban.  It's just not.

I feel that this is a huge error in judgment on the part of the rules committee, and ultimately constitutes diminished credibility.  There are plenty of degenerate cards and combos that are still legal, and much more damaging than Primeval Titan.  This is a shortsighed appeasement of a vocal minority of whiners.



I agree with that completely.  Prime Time is a great card that, as it is in every other format it is played, pushes the level for its drop slot.  However, unless you are using it to grab a degenerate combo it is at best a really good tutor.  The only time that I play him that he borders degenerate is in my Riku deck when I have so much tap for 2 mana lands, or if I entwine Tooth and Nail for he and Jin-Gitaxias and nab reliquary tower, and even then there are worse things I could grab in that deck.  I won't be honoring this ban, much like my group doesn't honor the Gris ban.

That reminds me... Why is tooth and nail still around?

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Man, I wanna play with Library of Alexandria. It'd be great with Necropotence and Damia, Sage of Stone.

Also, Tooth and Nail is still around because the RC like to watch people get Palinchron and Deadeye Navigator online with Blue Sun's Zenith.

I think that Consecrated Sphinx is a fine card and should not be banned. Along with Prime Time, Coffers, and Deserted Temple that's far too many cards for me to find replacements for.
I'm really confused why Urborg/Coffers is worth banning Prime Time for.  If your black deck can't tutor for 2 lands any other way than Primeval Titan, your black deck is doing something wrong.  Urborg does just as well with any other of black's numerous doubling spells/creatures.  Not a single other land that was stated above is a combo.  Inkmoth and Kessig is ok I guess, but if your deck can't kill a 1/1 flyer or a land, I'm not sure that you're in the right place.  Just my thoughts on the matter.
Guess I'm the minority here, but I actually like the primetime ban (and the koko unban). I've seen so many games devolve into the primeshow...it's tiresome. Want to tutor for a sword and get your voltron on? Nope sorry, you're gonna have to burn that tutor for removal because Rampy McRampsalot over there is going to stomp all over everything if you don't answer his silly 6 drop. Your sword isn't giving 3 land drops per turn is it? And it happens over and over. Green sun's zenith with 7 mana? Hmm I wonder what he's getting. Bribery being cast targetting the green player? Hmm I wonder what he's getting. Want to never be targeted by bribery? Easy: don't play green and make sure at least one player at the table is. Got your go for the throat and dispatched that 6/6 (so its owner 'merely' got an explosive vegetation out of it?) Guess what the black mage is going to target with his animate dead? Yawn.

Game after game, it's always primetime. And while casting it doesn't always win, that's mainly because everyone else is scrambling to steal/copy/kill/reanimate it. And THAT's because anyone who gets control of him for more than a couple of turns just runs away with the game.

Yeah I know kokusho can have a similar warping effect. But that's a different case, because koko is something you go for when you're ready to start winning. You don't tutor for koko on turn 2 with no recursion in hand yet. You get set up first, and then want koko to be the finisher. Primeval titan however, you go for as soon as possible, regardless of whatever tools you have or don't have in your grip. There's no thought required, he's always the right choice.

Side note: I wonder if consecrated sphinx is being watched closely, because I think it's closer to primeval titan's level than kokusho ever was.

That reminds me... Why is tooth and nail still around?

Tooth and nail isn't banned because it's only degenerate if you planned to use it degenerately. If you're thinking "sweet I get to put my 2 favorite fatties into play!" then cool, go for it. The card won't be a problem. And if you're hoping to do degenerate things, then there isn't a way to make an effective banlist that can stop you from doing so (eg: see niheloim's anti-combo thread). So the banlist doesn't try to force people to play nicely....it's up to the players to do that via social pressure. Instead, the banlist serves the purpose of warning players about cards that look fun/fair but end up really detracting from the game experience.
I'm cool with Primetime being banned and I said from the start that Worldfire would be banned. Kokusho being unbanned..... I don't know about that. I do however, know I'm going to have fun with him in Ob Nixilis and/or Sygg. Still not sure whether kicked Rite of Replication is more fun with Kokusho or Vela.... hehe.
Let's remember one thing here, guys: Commander/EDH is a casual format.  The ban list, while followed by much of the player base, is merely a suggestion.  I will not acknowledge the ban of Primeval Titan, and I don't think I'm alone.  As nilehoim stated before, ubiquity is not cause for a ban.  It's just not.

I feel that this is a huge error in judgment on the part of the rules committee, and ultimately constitutes diminished credibility.  There are plenty of degenerate cards and combos that are still legal, and much more damaging than Primeval Titan.  This is a shortsighed appeasement of a vocal minority of whiners.

You don't have to acknowledge it, as you said it is casual. If you sit down with me and land a PT, the game is over.

You should read the RC post about why it is banned. It is well though out and has very litte to do with ubiquity. mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1...

This card has been nuts for over a year, it was time.      
Let's remember one thing here, guys: Commander/EDH is a casual format.  The ban list, while followed by much of the player base, is merely a suggestion.  I will not acknowledge the ban of Primeval Titan, and I don't think I'm alone.  As nilehoim stated before, ubiquity is not cause for a ban.  It's just not.

I feel that this is a huge error in judgment on the part of the rules committee, and ultimately constitutes diminished credibility.  There are plenty of degenerate cards and combos that are still legal, and much more damaging than Primeval Titan.  This is a shortsighed appeasement of a vocal minority of whiners.

You don't have to acknowledge it, as you said it is casual. If you sit down with me and land a PT, the game is over.

You should read the RC post about why it is banned. It is well though out and has very litte to do with ubiquity. mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1...

This card has been nuts for over a year, it was time.      



Here's the exact text:

"One of the concerns that we've had recently is the overrepresentation of heavy ramp strategies, to the point where it makes up a large proportion of the aggregate decks out there. While we think ramp should be good - this is battlecruiser Magic, after all - it's probably a little too prevalent and needs reining in a bit. With that in mind, we're banning the most egregious offender, Primeval Titan.

This decision won't be universally popular. Primeval Titan is dripping with awesomeness, and we ourselves are big fans of the card. But its ubiquity and effect on games couldn't be ignored and sad though we are to see it go, we think it will make for a more interesting and diverse format."

It actually has everything to do with ubiquity.  I think the committee is overstepping.  I've had very few games where Primeval wasn't kept in check by the rest of the group.  Banning something because of popularity is absurd, and by the RC's reasoning, we should ban Sol Ring and Forest.  The RC goes on to explain why Kokusho is back, saying that it no longer has the effect on games that it used to.  Seriously?  Have any of the cards that enabled all of Kokusho's shenanigans been banned or stopped existing?  Nope, they sure haven't, and when Kokusho gets popular again, they'll ban it again.  As far as I'm concerned, the RC's legitimacy and credibility is shot.
 
Here's my real problem.  When it comes to some cards, like Armageddon and Obliterate, the rules committee says that playgroups can police themselves.  However, they don't feel the same about cards like Primeval Titan and Griselbrand.

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...Here's my real problem.  When it comes to some cards, like Armageddon and Obliterate, the rules committee says that playgroups can police themselves.  However, they don't feel the same about cards like Primeval Titan and Griselbrand.





The difference is that most playgroups avoid or frown upon mass land destruction, where as most playgroups do not frown upon land ramp.

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The difference is that most playgroups avoid or frown upon mass land destruction, where as most playgroups do not frown upon land ramp.



As well they shouldn't, and neither should the RC. 

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Guess I'm the minority here, but I actually like the primetime ban (and the koko unban). I've seen so many games devolve into the primeshow...it's tiresome. Want to tutor for a sword and get your voltron on? Nope sorry, you're gonna have to burn that tutor for removal because Rampy McRampsalot over there is going to stomp all over everything if you don't answer his silly 6 drop. Your sword isn't giving 3 land drops per turn is it? And it happens over and over. Green sun's zenith with 7 mana? Hmm I wonder what he's getting. Bribery being cast targetting the green player? Hmm I wonder what he's getting. Want to never be targeted by bribery? Easy: don't play green and make sure at least one player at the table is. Got your go for the throat and dispatched that 6/6 (so its owner 'merely' got an explosive vegetation out of it?) Guess what the black mage is going to target with his animate dead? Yawn.

Game after game, it's always primetime. And while casting it doesn't always win, that's mainly because everyone else is scrambling to steal/copy/kill/reanimate it. And THAT's because anyone who gets control of him for more than a couple of turns just runs away with the game.



I agree 100%.

Primetime was too good in the format, and I certainly won't miss him. Nearly every game, at least by turn 6 and often before, at least one player drops Prime. If it resolves, it's always Maze + Cradle. Or Maze + Strip. Or Maze + Shelters All tree. Or Coffers + Urborg. Or any number of perfect land plays depending on the board state.

If it were just basics, it would be fine, but Primetime is just so busted in this format.

Ramp is already getting pretty ridiculous in my meta, and I'll be glad to see this prime offender (no pun intended) out.