(2 Questions) Enemies That Jump; Hidden Effects on Creatures

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I have consistently ruled (right or wrong - but you can help fix that now) that if a creature jumps off an elevated object, it takes falling damage in accordance with the rules dealing with falling and having acrobatics trained or not.

However, at my last game I tried a new creature that had a climb speed and a special jumping attack (witherlings). The witherlings climbed nearby 10' and 20' structures near the adventurers (an alley in a city) and then attempt to use their sudden leap to jump down the same distance behind the adventurers.

One of my players argued that if ~he~ had asked to do that, I would have made him roll falling damage vs his acrobatics. (He's probably right, as I've set a precedent for that before.) The best argument I had at the time was that the power actually said "jump" in the description, instead of a creature or player whose special ability does not designate "jump" wanting to jump down.

Distinction without a difference? Or are there rules that would differentiate the actions and subsequent damage.

. . .

For something to become hidden, it has to have the appropriate concealment and make a stealth check, or do something that removes it from line of sight totally, if I understand right.

In this case, one of the witherlings charged around the alley, behind a line of buildings where there was no line of sight, for all intents and purposes. After all, you can't discern its location at all, and removing the token removes the meta-issue of "hidden, but all the players are still looking at it."

When a creature becomes hidden, that creature's token can be removed from the board, correct? The same player made the comment that if a player tried to do that and remove themselves from the map, most DMs would cry foul. How do the rules cut on this one?

. . .

And just one more question, but totally opinion and not-rules: I had a couple geonids in a different encounter. My players' passive perception is unable to detect them, but within range of actually rolling for a few of them.

Is it "cheating" to let them run up to the geonids for "cover from behind a boulder" (when the players can't passive a threat) and then blast them with its nastiness? Or that's okay, from a design standpoint because lul...rkers...?

58286228 wrote:
As a DM, I find it easier to just punish the players no matter what they pick, as I assume they will pick stuff that is broken. I mean, fight after fight they kill all the monsters without getting killed themselves! What sort of a game is this, anyway?

 

An insightful observation about the nature of 4e, and why it hasn't succeeded as well as other editions. (from the DDN General Discussions, 2014-05-07)

Rundell wrote:

   

Emerikol wrote:

       

Foxface wrote:

        4e was the "modern" D&D, right?  The one that had design notes that drew from more modern games, and generally appealed to those who preferred the design priorities of modern games.  I'm only speculating, but I'd hazard a guess that those same 4e players are the ones running the wide gamut of other games at Origins.

       
        D&D 4e players are pretty much by definition the players who didn't mind, and often embraced, D&D being "different".  That willingness to embrace the different might also mean they are less attached to 4e itself, and are willing to go elsewhere.

    This is a brilliant insight.  I was thinking along those lines myself.  

 

    There are so many tiny indie games that if you added them all together they would definitely rival Pathfinder.   If there were a dominant game for those people it would do better but there is no dominant game.  Until 4e, the indie people were ignored by the makers of D&D.

 

Yep. 4E was embraced by the 'system matters' crowd who love analyzing and innovating systems. That crowd had turned its back on D&D as a clunky anachronism. But with 4E, their design values were embraced and validated. 4E was D&D for system-wonks. And with support for 4E pulled, the system-wonks have moved on to other systems. The tropes and traditions of D&D never had much appeal for them anyway. Now there are other systems to learn and study. It's like boardgamegeeks - always a new system on the horizon. Why play an ancient games that's seven years old?

 

Of course, not all people who play and enjoy 4E fit that mould. I'm running a 4E campaign right now, and my long-time D&D players are enjoying it fine. But with the system-wonks decamping, the 4E players-base lost the wind in its sails.

1. Jumping is not falling and don't generate damage, unless you run out of squares of movement while in midair.

Jumping: All the squares of the jump, if any, use squares of movement from the action. The High Jump table summarizes the total distances of various high jumps based on Athletics check results. If the creature runs out of movement before landing on something or grabbing onto something, it falls.

 
2. You are not hidden by simply being out of line of sight. To become hidden, you must meet all the requirement and make a Stealth Check, unless noted otherwise. When a creature become hidden, enemies must use the rules for Targeting What You Can't See (RC 221) to find the hidden creature. You can remove the miniature from the board if you and the DM want, i regularly do it when i DM. For players, i ask that everyone take note of the hidden PC's location before removing it. I like it better if i have to ''guess the square he's in'' Wink


3. No its not cheating since the creature has a Trait called Shell Form that conceal its true nature.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I have consistently ruled (right or wrong - but you can help fix that now) that if a creature jumps off an elevated object, it takes falling damage in accordance with the rules dealing with falling and having acrobatics trained or not.

The falling rules apply equally to PCs and monsters. If a monster is trained in Acrobatics, then it can roll to reduce falling damage.

However, at my last game I tried a new creature that had a climb speed and a special jumping attack (witherlings). The witherlings climbed nearby 10' and 20' structures near the adventurers (an alley in a city) and then attempt to use their sudden leap to jump down the same distance behind the adventurers.

I would rule that the witherlings would take falling damage in that situation.

When a creature becomes hidden, that creature's token can be removed from the board, correct? The same player made the comment that if a player tried to do that and remove themselves from the map, most DMs would cry foul. How do the rules cut on this one?

Players are not permitted to hide game information from the person who's running the game. This is a situation where, as DM, you have to simulate what the monsters would do given their intelligence and the information they have available.

EDIT: As noted in the other responses, merely leaving line of sight is not enough to be hidden; you also have to succeed at a Stealth check.

And just one more question, but totally opinion and not-rules: I had a couple geonids in a different encounter. My players' passive perception is unable to detect them, but within range of actually rolling for a few of them. Is it "cheating" to let them run up to the geonids for "cover from behind a boulder" (when the players can't passive a threat) and then blast them with its nastiness? Or that's okay, from a design standpoint because lul...rkers...?

Nope, not cheating at all. That's what lurkers are supposed to do. But it makes for a more satisfying encounter if you give the players some clues that they're in a dangerous area.
Jumping is not falling. You made up a houserule and it was inconsistent with the system, which isn't unusual.

RAW, you know the location of every enemy in an encounter, whether you can see them or not. So "around a corner" is not reason enough to remove the token from the board. They must be Hidden. And they always know the square the creature became Hidden in, so unless they moved after the fact there is a 99% chance they are still in that square. This applies to PCs becoming Hidden, as well.
yeah, falling = damage and jumping = no damage.  It's the difference between doing something on purpose and controlling said action vs not controlling anything and rolling acrobatics to try to regain said control.  So a creature using a power that includes jumping would not require a damage roll since it's a controlled action.  If that makes sense for you.

What Alcestis said, having superior cover or total concealment does not mean the players / monsters don't know where you are.  You need to be hidden for that.   LINK:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758....


If a creature is hidden and no one is actively making perception checks then the stealth check is vs the creatures passive perception.  If the stealth is better, then the token is not on the board and no one knows it's there.  If on the other hand the creature just has total concealment or superior cover, everyone knows it's there.  This is all explained in the link above.  Happy reading
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

To confirm that I understand these points:

(1) A player is on a 10' ledge above the ground, and his turn begins; he has 6 squares of movement to spend. He declares he jumps down (1 square) and moves the remaining 5 squares of movement across the map.

He did not make a jump check, because he cleared 0 squares (a 10' vertical drop into the adjacent... column of squares). It was a willing movement, though, and does not count as falling, and does not incur falling damage as a result. So, unless intentional downward vertical movement is the result of forced movement, a player or creature should not take falling damage, or require an acrobatics check.

(1a) When the rules on a jump check (I don't have my compendium with me) say "clear a square" does that mean a square you enter, or a square you passed over?

Example: A player starts in square 1 and clears 3 squares (2, 3, 4) on a jump check, he lands in square 5. That's how I've been counting it, as a DM, and would like to clear that up since it's... tangentially relevant.

(2) Again, I am sans Compendium, please remind me if the Stealth check is part of the movement, or at the end of a movement to become hidden? That is probably where my biggest mistake has been. (Answer provided in the link that was posted while I was typing this one.)

58286228 wrote:
As a DM, I find it easier to just punish the players no matter what they pick, as I assume they will pick stuff that is broken. I mean, fight after fight they kill all the monsters without getting killed themselves! What sort of a game is this, anyway?

 

An insightful observation about the nature of 4e, and why it hasn't succeeded as well as other editions. (from the DDN General Discussions, 2014-05-07)

Rundell wrote:

   

Emerikol wrote:

       

Foxface wrote:

        4e was the "modern" D&D, right?  The one that had design notes that drew from more modern games, and generally appealed to those who preferred the design priorities of modern games.  I'm only speculating, but I'd hazard a guess that those same 4e players are the ones running the wide gamut of other games at Origins.

       
        D&D 4e players are pretty much by definition the players who didn't mind, and often embraced, D&D being "different".  That willingness to embrace the different might also mean they are less attached to 4e itself, and are willing to go elsewhere.

    This is a brilliant insight.  I was thinking along those lines myself.  

 

    There are so many tiny indie games that if you added them all together they would definitely rival Pathfinder.   If there were a dominant game for those people it would do better but there is no dominant game.  Until 4e, the indie people were ignored by the makers of D&D.

 

Yep. 4E was embraced by the 'system matters' crowd who love analyzing and innovating systems. That crowd had turned its back on D&D as a clunky anachronism. But with 4E, their design values were embraced and validated. 4E was D&D for system-wonks. And with support for 4E pulled, the system-wonks have moved on to other systems. The tropes and traditions of D&D never had much appeal for them anyway. Now there are other systems to learn and study. It's like boardgamegeeks - always a new system on the horizon. Why play an ancient games that's seven years old?

 

Of course, not all people who play and enjoy 4E fit that mould. I'm running a 4E campaign right now, and my long-time D&D players are enjoying it fine. But with the system-wonks decamping, the 4E players-base lost the wind in its sails.

"Jump down" is a specific thing covered by acrobatics called "Hop Down" (which it should be noted originally required training and no longer does). Jump across and jump up are athletics. But "across" can involve going down (not falling), based on various factors.

Originally it used to be that if you say, cleared 3 squares (DC 15 with a running start, you roll 15) you could land in square 3. So SXXL. Start, clear clear, land. You couldn't get to the next square unless you rolled a 16. The RC changed that, now you could "clear" three squares, landing in square 4. SXXXL. Minor change to make math faster clearer (though actually I am pretty sure that was always RAI and just explained poorly in the PHB). So yes your understanding is correct.


the squares of the jump are the counted squares just like regular movement.  He jumps from the origin square, then you count the squares of movement of the jump.  so a 3 square jump means he lands in square 3.  If however the player was already moving before jumping, for example when making a running start jump, then you have to add those squares to the jump squares and see if the total is over the maximum movement of the player.  If it is, then you count every square beyond the players movement as falling.  At least that is my understanding. 

To further support this, some powers have clauses that state that the character gets +10 on a jump check and can jump the total distance of the check even if that distance excedes the maximum movement of the jumper.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Does this mean that if i'm up on a 5 square ledge, with 0 acrobatics, and have a power that let's me "jump my speed", i can jump down 5 squares?

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my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

If your speed is 5 or higher, yes.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I know it sounds weird.  But that's what it is.  You don't take falling damage for using a power that lets you jump regardless of which direction you're jumping as long as you don't exceed your movement speed.  Another example would be if you jump your speed directly up.  You move your speed up but then you fall back down for the same distance and take damage since you've already moved your speed upwards.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)