Question: white and artifact removal.

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Ive never posted in this part of the forums before but a question keep poping in my head when I look at the color white; I am realatively a new player, I started in innistrad and I have only play standard so far. I mainly black because I like it from a flavor perspective, I try to better understand the weaknesses of the other color to better play around them and hit them where it would really hurt. While looking what belongs in this forum I looked at the sticky post at the top of the section, I am unsure if this is a "design contests" that does not belong in these forums, but I will ask anyways.

My question is simple why does white have artifact removal?

I have looked at the other colors extensively and a pattern emerges when I look at what they have and do not have. I cannot understand why white has artifact removal, I understand that the scars block was an artifact heavy block, so it made since that there would be artifact removal in places it would not have normally been, (mainly why this question never came to my mind originally). I saw a new card that had been spoiled on the forums in the future set speculations, Sundering Growth, it is naturalize + populate; I saw this card and the idea that artifact removal was perhaps a normal thing for white finally came into my head.

I naturally surmised that white would have a weakness while dealing with artifacts because green had such a strong ability to deal with artifacts and enchantments ,naturalize, and red had a strong ability to deal with artifacts but no real answer to enchantments, smelt.

I keep thinking about it and I still see no reason, even from a flavor perspective, that white should have any direct answers to artifacts. Perhaps I am wrong, I do not know, I have tried to find an answers on the internet as to why they do have these kinds of answers at their disposal and I have yet to understand.
Historically, white has has artifact removal in the form of cards like Disenchant and Divine Offering. Right around Onslaught, R&D decided that green should be the best at removing artifact and enchantments, so they printed Naturalize. Thus began white's focus mainly on enchantment removal. It's still allowed to get some artifact removal though.

If you're looking for the color that can't remove artifacts, that would be black.

IMAGE(http://steamsignature.com/status/default/76561197995631463.png) No longer a commander as of 7/29/13.

What you are looking at is what a colour "should" do vs. what a colour "has" done.  Like CommanderJim said, white has had artifact removal since Alpha, but under NWO is rarely if ever allowed to remove artifacts.  Red is not allowed to remove enchantments barring Liquimetal Coating (until they print an enchantments matters block, like enchanto-Scars, where I'm sure they will).  Black isn't allowed to kill anything other than creatures.  Green is allowed to remove anything except for creatures (unless it has flying because of crazy stuff blah blah blah).

Basically, White has a history so it can when artifacts matter.  This sort of stuff actually sparks a lot of arguements.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, green originally hated enchantments, which made it similar to red which hated artifacts.  Blue liked them both and had little to no chance of killing either.  White could remove both and black could do anything for the right price.  Since then it has changed to white can remove enchantments and poorly remove creatures.  Red can remove artifacts and poorly remove land.  Green can remove anything that either white or red can.  Black can remove creatures well, and blue can remove anything on the stack, or delay anything in play.
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Green and white have both had a love/hate relationship with enchantments. Remember Verduran Enchantress was in Alpha.

And, yes, white can solve anything but lands these days, although there's probably a catch if it's creatures. 
Those claiming black can only destroy creatures should remember Befoul, Poison the Well/Drain the Well, Desecrated Earth, Rain of Tears, Polluted Dead, etc.
I forgot about black getting the occasional bad land destruction (barring Sinkhole).

Black can kill just about any creature these days (back in ye olde' days, they had a hard time killing stuff that wasn't alive aka black and artifact creatures), and land... as opposed to green which kills everything else pretty well, but has some trouble (not saying much) with creatures and land.
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I wish that white didn't get it, but at this point I would say that it's a bit too late to be relevant.

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This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

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They can still remove artifact hate if they wanted to enough. The problem is that hybrids sometimes have to bend the color pie a little to work. A green/white hybrid card with artifact hate is seen as okay by R&D because white already has some. I disagree with this though, I don't think white should have artifact hate even in the case of hybrid cards. No color should be capable of removing anything (oblivion ring effects being the exception).
I forgot about black getting the occasional bad land destruction (barring Sinkhole).

Black can kill just about any creature these days (back in ye olde' days, they had a hard time killing stuff that wasn't alive aka black and artifact creatures), and land... as opposed to green which kills everything else pretty well, but has some trouble (not saying much) with creatures and land.

Black's land destruction is/was less common, not worse. It got three-mana LD back when that was a thing; now its land destruction is bad, but so is everyone else's.
They can still remove artifact hate if they wanted to enough. The problem is that hybrids sometimes have to bend the color pie a little to work. A green/white hybrid card with artifact hate is seen as okay by R&D because white already has some. I disagree with this though, I don't think white should have artifact hate even in the case of hybrid cards. No color should be capable of removing anything (oblivion ring effects being the exception).

I agree that white gets too much unconditional removal, but I really don't think the problem is white being able to hit artifacts as well as enchantments. The problem is white hitting creatures without some kind of undoability or provocation.

Pacifism is clearly white; Neck Snap is clearly white. But Banishing Stroke really shouldn't be able to hit creatures; nor should Exclusion Ritual. Iona's Judgment is a particularly egregious example that just has no business existing. And I'm sad to say Return to Ravnica brings another similar common which I'm definitely going to play, but I'll feel sad for the colour pie every time I do.

Given the trespasses white has been making into destroying creatures with no provocation (i.e. not  neutralising them, not waiting for them to attack or block), I think the artifact destruction isn't anywhere near such a problem.
The problem is white hitting creatures without some kind of undoability.



Colors need to be able to solve creatures, period.
Colors need to be able to solve creatures, period.

Yes, and White can solve creatures - by imprisoning (reversibility clause) or executing (offense clause) them. White doesn't (or rather, shouldn't) kill anyone without cause; that would immoral.
Given that Pacifism, Arrest and Faith's Fetters are all proactive, reversible creature removal, Journey- and Excommunication-style effects really don't seem like a stretch in white. But once you have that and add what white can already do, it's a very short step to O-Ring. Admittedly, the actualy chronology was almost precisly the reverse of the progression I illustrated, but the logic seems sound to me.

On the other hand, I completely agree that both Iona's Judgment and Banishing Stroke definitely should be out of bounds for white. While there's some sense in which they're "reversible", as a practical matter they really aren't.

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Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

I think that they see it as "White has relocated stuff like Stalin since Alpha, and we haven't ever stopped, so it's okay."  In all seriousness, Iona's Judgment costs :Wm:, and Banishing Stroke costs :Wm: if you don't get it for it's "Broken card from the past" cost (okay, I don't remember if Banishing Stroke specifically was a card, but many of them were), so I don't think that exiling without provocation is really against white's flavour. From Swords to Plowshares to Plowshare en-Dal, Erase, Excommunicate, Wipe Clean, Catapult MasterFinal Judgment, Condemn Hallowed BurialPath to Exile, Iona's Judgment etc.

Actually, the kind of sniping that I like white getting is stuff like Smite the Monstrous, Intrepid Hero, Radiant's Judgment, Reprisal and Retribution of the Meek.
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My major problem with Iona's Judgment is that it's white getting a Sorcerous, expensive Murder that can hit an extra permanent type, but only because we change the first word of the effect. This is exactly the same logic that gave us Hornet Sting.

Also, I find it hard to believe that the only thing Iona needs to judge is whether or not you are a creature/enchantment before determining that you must be consigned to oblivion.

Exiling enchantments is fine; enchantment hate has arguably become white's "thing" since green took over the artifact-hate. Final Judgment and Hallowed Burial are fine because they're Wrath variants (and also because they hit everything and, hence, play strongly into white's love of Balance). I like the idea of Swords and Path but they don't really feel as fair as they should. I like hitting big things or attacking/blocking things; they're all just asking for trouble. But at some point, avoiding the word "destroy" and/or adding the word "life" isn't enough to make the card not Black. That's the line that Catapult Master, Condemn and Iona's Judgment cross, in my book.

EDIT: Mental note: RTFC

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

My major problem with Iona's Judgment is that it's white getting a Sorcerous, expensive Murder that can hit an extra permanent type, but only because we change the first word of the effect. This is exactly the same logic that gave us Hornet Sting.

Also, I find it hard to believe that the only thing Iona needs to judge is whether or not you are a creature/enchantment before determining that you must be consigned to oblivion.

Exiling enchantments is fine; enchantment hate has arguably become white's "thing" since green took over the artifact-hate. Final Judgment and Hallowed Burial are fine because they're Wrath variants (and also because they hit everything and, hence, play strongly into white's love of Balance). I like the idea of Swords and Path but they don't really feel as fair as they should. I like hitting big things or attacking/blocking things; they're all just asking for trouble. But at some point, avoiding the word "destroy" and/or adding the word "life" isn't enough to make the card not Black. That's the line that Catapult Master, Condemn and Iona's Judgment cross, in my book.


Condemn does need the creature to be attacking. That's enough for me.
I can agree with Catapult Master being a bad white card on so many levels... 1) Why is a catapult taking prisoners? 2) Why isn't a catapult DOING DAMAGE to a target something?

And I can see white exiling stuff for as much, if not more than it would normally cost to kill everybody.
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