5E Mulitclassing idea

I think 5E multiclassing should be like 4E hybrid classes.

How that works for those that are not 4E fans is that you take pieces of each class instead of getting all the features of both classes.

In 5E it could work the same way. The key would be tying it to the character level rather than the class level. So you could pick up another class at a higher level but wouldn't get all of the level 1 perks.

Here's an example of how it would break down:

Level   Class     Packages separated by ()
1        Fighter   (+1 to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), (Hit Points 10 + Con modifier), (Fighter Armor Proficiencies), (Fighter Weapon Proficiencies), (+3 Weapon Attack), (Expertise Dice 1d6), (Combat Superiority), (Fighting Style)
2        Fighter   (1d10 + Con Mod hit points)
3        Fighter   (1d10 + Con Mod hit points), (Expertise Dice 1d8), (Fighting Style Maneuver)
4        Fighter   (1d10 + Con Mod hit points), (+1 Weapon attack)
5        Fighter   (1d10 + Con Mod hit points), (Expertise Dice 2d8), (Fighting Style Maneuver)

1        Wizard   (+1 to Intelligence, or Constitution), (Hit Points 4 + Con Mod), (Wizard Weapon Proficiencies), (+3 Magic Attack), (+2 Weapon Attack), (1st level Spell slot with 11 + Int Mod DC), (1st level Spell slot with 11 + Int Mod DC), (1st level Spell slot with 11 + Int Mod DC), (Cantrip with DC 11 + Int Mod), (Cantrip with DC 11 + Int Mod), (Arcane Knowledge)
2        Wizard   (1d4 + Con Mod hit points), (1st level Spell slot with 11 + Int Mod DC)
3        Wizard   (1d4 + Con Mod hit points), (2nd level spell slot with 11 + Int Mod DC), (2nd level spell slot with 11 + Int Mod DC)
4        Wizard   (1d4 + Con Mod hit points), (2nd level spell slot with 12 + Int Mod DC)
5        Wizard   (1d4 + Con Mod hit points), (3rd level spell slot with 12 + Int Mod DC), (3rd level spell slot with 12 + Int Mod DC)

At first level you would pick a hit point package and 4 other packages. At each level you would pick a hit point package, and two other packages.

So a first level Fighter Wizard might look like this:

Fighter / Wizard = (Hit Points 10 + Con modifier), (+1 to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), (+3 Magic Attack), (Fighter Weapon Proficiencies), (Cantrip with DC 11 + Int Mod).

What do you think?
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
So I can be a wizard with the same hit points as a fighter? Sweet!
So I can be a wizard with the same hit points as a fighter? Sweet!



Ok, maybe you have to average the hit points out or something...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Um wow, just .... no.

 
Um wow, just .... no.

 



Any specific reason?
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Maybe.

I see one major potential for balance issues, however:  The packets have to all be balanced relative to each other.  If not, you end up with the ability to create broken combinations that would put 3.x to shame.

Carl
And even if the packets are balanced relative to each other in abstract - the possibility exists for combinations from different classes to be broken even if they aren't in the context of the original classes limitations (as an analogy - the way a spell that immobilizes and a spell that poisons might be OK on their own - but become broken when combined).

Carl
And even if the packets are balanced relative to each other in abstract - the possibility exists for combinations from different classes to be broken even if they aren't in the context of the original classes limitations (as an analogy - the way a spell that immobilizes and a spell that poisons might be OK on their own - but become broken when combined).

Carl



Can you point out any examples in the play test packet?
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I direct your attention to level 2.

Not enough packets.

Then to level 3, if the fighter didn't pick up the 1d6 die why can he get the 1d8 die now?

You need to come up with a much more controlled progression for a hybrid class, especially in the matter of HP where your system allows the player to freely pick the larger dice of the two at no cost.

My advice is to focus on creating such limited core progressions then worry about allowing for customization and mix and match.

For example the HP, instead of letting them freely snag the superior fighter hp, I'd force them to use the average so 7 + con mod at level 1, and then 5+ every even level and 6+ every odd.

Then instead of giving them the options to mix and match to their demented desire I'd inflict certain things as minimums/mods.

So for example the fighter gives all simple weapons, shields, and light armor, plus one chosen martial weapon. While the wiz offers only the staff and the dagger, but nuke your armor prof one level  or something. 
I direct your attention to level 2.

Not enough packets.

Then to level 3, if the fighter didn't pick up the 1d6 die why can he get the 1d8 die now?

You need to come up with a much more controlled progression for a hybrid class, especially in the matter of HP where your system allows the player to freely pick the larger dice of the two at no cost.

My advice is to focus on creating such limited core progressions then worry about allowing for customization and mix and match.

For example the HP, instead of letting them freely snag the superior fighter hp, I'd force them to use the average so 7 + con mod at level 1, and then 5+ every even level and 6+ every odd.

Then instead of giving them the options to mix and match to their demented desire I'd inflict certain things as minimums/mods.

So for example the fighter gives all simple weapons, shields, and light armor, plus one chosen martial weapon. While the wiz offers only the staff and the dagger, but nuke your armor prof one level  or something. 



Yes, but what happens when you take the first 3 levels as fighter and then want to multiclass into Wizard? Do you suddenly lose your weapon proficiencies and armor proficiencies?

I'm with you on the average hit point thing, but we need this system to cover level 1 multiclassing as well as PrC multiclassing and even higher level multiclassing where you throw a class on at later levels.

Maybe you have certain packages you can only get at 1st level like armor and weapon proficiencies, you get average hit points between all classes that you multiclass into, then you have certain balanced packages you pick from at each level.

One of the things we want to prevent is the whole 10th level fighter with worthless level 1 spells when they multiclass into Wizard. This is why I suggested they only get the feature of that given level so the 10th level fighter that multiclasses into Wizard gets one spell slot for a 5th level spell...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
You said it needed to be like 4e hybrids.

If you want the ability to multi-class into classes at any level you please you're better off waiting for the 2nd or third draft of the playtest MC, or at least working along a similar line. 
Perhaps we could add some packages that must be taken like you must take at least one cantrip or daily spell slot for Wizards and you must take the Fighters weapon bonus, then you have a choice between another cantrip or daily spell slot or combat superiority dice or maneuver or lore...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
You said it needed to be like 4e hybrids.

If you want the ability to multi-class into classes at any level you please you're better off waiting for the 2nd or third draft of the playtest MC, or at least working along a similar line. 



Well I want it to work like hybrid classes in 4E, but be applicable to all multiclassing situations...

PrC's would give you two or three things, but you would only get to pick 1-2 packages from your other classes...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Ok listen 4e hybrids are like old school multi-classing, you have to start at level one. 

Let me make sure I've got the design goals correct okay?

1. Multi-classing must not be horribly OP/UP.
2. Must be able to multi-class at any level.

There is a third one I think, but i don't understand it, you're aiming at something I can't quite put into words yet, and you need to make it clear.

Best shot at 3. Once multi-classed the secondary class(es) continue to effect your progression.
3a.) Multiclasisng is not accomplished via discrete levels ala 3e/current direction of playtest.
3b.) Multiclassing is not accomplished via feats.

Is that it?


Also this packages idea isn't going to work dude. You can't go aorund letting fighters jump from no expertise die to 2d8.
Ok listen 4e hybrids are like old school multi-classing, you have to start at level one. 

Let me make sure I've got the design goals correct okay?

1. Multi-classing must not be horribly OP/UP.
2. Must be able to multi-class at any level.

There is a third one I think, but i don't understand it, you're aiming at something I can't quite put into words yet, and you need to make it clear.

Best shot at 3. Once multi-classed the secondary class(es) continue to effect your progression.

Is that it?

Also this packages idea isn't going to work dude. You can't go aorund letting fighters jump from no expertise die to 2d8. 



You got #3 pretty good. So if you dip into Wizard for some 1st level cantrips or spell slots or whatever you then have 7 hit points per level instead of 10, but you can pick fightery stuff from then on.

You're probably right on the CS dice thing So maybe instead of giving you CS dice it simply increases where you are on the CS dice chart. So if you take Wizard up to level 2 then choose to multiclass into Fighter you get 1d6 cs dice because you are at the first stage on the chart. You then have the option of increasing it again at level 5. If you pick two classes that are based on CS dice say Fighter and Ranger/Paladin you can get an upgrade quicker but you have lower hit points or you have to split your maneuvers between the Fighter ones and others, and get less class features...

The main problem is that 1st level Wizard spells are going to suck at higher levels to the point of gimping your character unless you have them from 1st level. So if they make it where you up the damage dice size, number of dice, or effect of spells in higher level slots then we can just give higher level slots and lower level spells, so that level 11 Fighter that multiclassed into Wizard at 11th level can cast burning hands but at level 5 slot power (something like +1d4 per slot level so 8d4 damage or something)...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
... Describe the general progression of such a character in your ideal system.

Not specific abilities but what's written down for class and level at levels 1, 4, 7, and 10?
As always, the devil is in the details, but overall, your idea is what I'm hoping for.

However, if they want to implement a decent and balanced multiclassing system based on hybrids, they'll have to organize classes symmetrically. I don't mean symmetric mechanics, just have each class be composed of "packages" or "class features".

For instance, fighters might have the following "class features":

  • Martial Training I (weapon and armor proficiencies)

  • Martial Training II (upgrade weapon and armor proficiencies)

  • Fighting Style 1 to 6 (only for characters of level 10 or lower)

  • Fighter Style Upgrade (only for characters of level 10 or higher)


The number of CS dice and the size or your CS die depends on the number of fighter class features. For instance, a 5th level character with 3 fighter class features would get 3d8 CS dice while a 5th level character with 4 fighter class features would get 4d8.

Wizards could have for instance these "class features":

  • Wizard's Study (gain access to rituals, arcane lore, and maybe some bonus spells known per level, something like that)

  • Caster Level 1 to 6 (only for characters of level 10 or lower)

  • Increased Maximum Spell Level (only for characters of level 10 or higher)


For each "caster level", you have a spell slot by level progression. You might want to have a different "maximum spell level" depending on your caster level; this could work because low level spells are supposed to get better in a higher level spell slot.

You should be able to break down the rogue and cleric into "class features" and a scalable part that depend on your number of class features and your total character level.

At first level, and for every two levels in a class, you gain a class feature. At first level, you also gain 2 bonus class features (for a total of 7 class features at level 9).

I don't know about you guys, but the last thing I want is for multiclasses to be a whole bunch of useless low level options. I don't want multiclass characters to be an overwhelming number of high level options either.

That's the purpose of the "cass features" and "advanced class feature" break down. During the first 10 levels, you select your percentage of each class in your overall abilities. I would like a 1/3 wizard, 2/3 fighter to have 1/3 of the the spellcasting abilities of a wizard and 2/3 of the fighter's combat potential. You also want a cap on the total number of options you have (lets avoid the 50+ spell slots please). After level 10, you don't gain new options, you only improve your existing options (flashier spells, advanced combat maneuvers, etc...).

Note that this system works well with prestige classes too. And level dipping is pretty much useless. It also works very well for those that want to play "training levels" or start as heroes. All you have to do is either spread out the bonus class features or concentrate them at the lower levels.

Anyways, that's how I would like multiclassing to work. Since the game designers don't spend a lot of time on these boards, they'll probably need some time to figure things out. I'll be patient in the meantime.
... Describe the general progression of such a character in your ideal system.

Not specific abilities but what's written down for class and level at levels 1, 4, 7, and 10?



For which kind of combination?

Lets say you take Fighter for the first 3 levels so you would have this:

Fighter level 3
+1 to Strength
Hit points: 10 + Con Mod + 1d10 + 1d10
Armor Proficiencies: All armors
Weapon Proficiencies: All weapons
Weapon Attack: +3
Expertise Dice: 1d8
Combat Superiority
Fighter Style Maneuver 1st level
Fighter Style Maneuver 3rd level

So you take a level of Wizard, now you get average between the Fighter and Wizard hit points which is 7 or if you roll then roll both dice then divide by the number of classes (in this case 2). Then you choose between the different packages in the case of level 4 Wizard/Fighter packages there is literally only 2 choices so you get both:

Fighter level 3 / Wizard MC at level 4
+1 to Strength
Hit points: 10 + Con Mod + 1d10 + 1d10 + ((1d10 + 1d4) / 2)
Armor Proficiencies: All armors
Weapon Proficiencies: All weapons
Weapon Attack: +4 [level 4 Fighter +1 weapon package]
Expertise Dice: 1d8
Combat Superiority
Fighter Style Maneuver 1st level
Fighter Style Maneuver 3rd level
2nd level daily spell slot with 12 + Int Mod DC (and your pick of spells equal to Int mod minimum 1) [level 4 Wizard 2nd level daily spell slot package]

Lets say they then level up to 5 they would then grab some more stuff from either class as well as average hit points. We have to stop at level 5 because we don't have any other data to go on.

Fighter level 5 multiclass into Wizard at level 4
+1 to Strength
Hit points: 10 + Con Mod + 1d10 + 1d10 + ((1d10 + 1d4) / 2) + ((1d10 + 1d4) / 2) + ((1d10 + 1d4) / 2) + ((1d10 + 1d4) / 2)
Armor Proficiencies: All armors
Weapon Proficiencies: All weapons
Weapon Attack: +4 [level 4 Fighter +1 weapon package]
Expertise Dice: 2d8 [level 5 Fighter increase ED package]
Combat Superiority
Fighter Style Maneuver 1st level
Fighter Style Maneuver 3rd level
2nd level daily spell slot with 12 + Int Mod DC (and your pick of spells equal to Int mod minimum 1) [level 4 Wizard 2nd level daily spell slot package]
3rd level daily spell slot with 12 + Int Mod DC (and your pick of spells equal to Int mod minimum 1) [level 5 Wizard 3rd level daily spell slot package]

does that answer your question? If it doesn't I don't exactly understand what you are trying to say...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Congratulations you've just made BECMI bards and 3e grappling look streamlined.
Maybe you would have to have a rule like 4E does where you have to pick at least one package from each class...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
It looks like all classes have featureless levels though level 4 looks to be feature light for almost all classes. If thats a trend then maybe the progression would go like this:

Level     Hybrid Packages
1           4
2           2
3           2
4           1
5           2

That way they always have to choose to give something up, but at specific levels where there are plenty of choices they could get more packages...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Ok and what precisely does this do better than the proposed system 5e system? What are you trying to achieve that's different?
Ok and what precisely does this do better than the proposed system 5e system? What are you trying to achieve that's different?



It prevents cherry picking features from classes that 3.xE had. It also makes it more difficult to find broken combinations like taking a few levels of Wizard and Cleric then taking the Mystic Theurge PrC so that you can cast the same number of spells as a straight Cleric and a straight Wizard, or the various optimizer combos that have been mentioned in other threads.

In this method you could potentially take 7 classes and 3 PrCs but you are still limited to 1-3 packages per level so it won't benefit you more than just playing a straight class that gets the same number of packages per level...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The playtest article has already specificcally mentioned methods for countering such. Without being incredibly over complex.
 
The playtest article has already specificcally mentioned methods for countering such. Without being incredibly over complex.
 



After I posted this I saw that thread (somehow it was invisible to me up until that point), and what they advocate sounds pretty much like what I am advocating...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Ok updated version based on feedback:

The key is tying packages to the character level rather than the class level. So you could pick up another class at a higher level but wouldn't get all of the level 1 perks.

You take average hit points, or roll all hit point dice and divide by number of classes.

Here's an example of how it would break down:

Level   Class     Packages separated by ()
1        Fighter   (+1 to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), (Fighter Armor Proficiencies), (Fighter Weapon Proficiencies), (+3 Weapon Attack), (Expertise Dice 1d6), (Fighting Style + 1st level Maneuver for that style), (Deadly Strike Maneuver), (Parry Maneuver)
2        Fighter  
3        Fighter   (Expertise Dice increase), (Fighting Style Maneuver)
4        Fighter   (+1 Weapon attack)
5        Fighter   (Expertise Dice increase), (Fighting Style Maneuver)

They choose the Fighting Style the first time they get a maneuver and use that style for any additional maneuvers they choose. In order to choose a Maneuver package the player must first have chosen an Expertise Dice package.

Expertise Dice damage (An increase means you move to the next highest damage, so if you forgo the 'Expertise Dice increase' at level 3 but pick it up at level 5 you would have 1d8 damage)
1d6
1d8
2d8

1        Wizard   (+1 to Intelligence, or Constitution), (Wizard Weapon Proficiencies), (+3 Magic Attack), (+2 Weapon Attack), (1st level Spell slot with 11 + Int Mod DC and Int Mod Wizard spells {only learn spells once per level}), (1st level Spell slot with 11 + Int Mod DC), (1st level Spell slot with 11 + Int Mod DC), (Cantrip with DC 11 + Int Mod), (Cantrip with DC 11 + Int Mod), (Arcane Knowledge)
2        Wizard   (1st level Spell slot with 11 + Int Mod DC and Int Mod Wizard spells {only learn spells once per level})
3        Wizard   (2nd level spell slot with 11 + Int Mod DC and Int Mod Wizard spells {only learn spells once per level}), (2nd level spell slot with 11 + Int Mod DC)
4        Wizard   (2nd level spell slot with 12 + Int Mod DC and Int Mod Wizard spells {only learn spells once per level})
5        Wizard   (3rd level spell slot with 12 + Int Mod DC and Int Mod Wizard spells {only learn spells once per level}), (3rd level spell slot with 12 + Int Mod DC)

1        Cleric     (+1 to Wisdom, Strength, or Constitution), (Armor Proficiencies from Domain), (Basic Weapons and simple missile weapons), (Weapon Attack +2), (Magic Attack +2), (Channel Divinity +1 use), (1st level Cleric spell slot, DC 10 + Wis mod, prepare +1 1st level Clerical spell, Domain spells{must choose a domain if you take any domain packages}), (1st level Cleric spell slot, DC 10 + Wis mod, prepare +1 1st level Clerical spell, Domain spells{must choose a domain if you take any domain packages}), (1 Orison), (Religion skill training)
2        Cleric     (Domain Benefit), (1st level Cleric spell slot, DC 10 + Wis mod, prepare +1 1st level Clerical spell, Domain spells{must choose a domain if you take any domain packages})
3        Cleric     (2nd level Cleric spell slot, DC 10 + Wis mod, prepare +1 2nd level Clerical spell, Domain spells{must choose a domain if you take any domain packages})
4        Cleric     (Channel Divinity +1 use), (2nd level Cleric spell slot, DC 10 + Wis mod, prepare +1 2nd level Clerical spell, Domain spells{must choose a domain if you take any domain packages})
5        Cleric     (Channel Divinity damage increase), (3rd level Cleric spell slot, DC 10 + Wis mod, prepare +1 3rd level Clerical spell, Domain spells{must choose a domain if you take any domain packages}), (+1 Orison)

Channel Divinity damage (an increase moves you to the next higher damage)
1d8
2d8

At each level you would pick a number of packages from the chart. You must pick at least one package from each class you are multiclassed into. If you have more classes than packages at a level you must alternate between classes you choose your packages from so that you have at least one package from each class before you get another package from the same class. So if you are a Fighter/Wizard/Rogue and you take two packages one from Fighter and one from Wizard at your next level you must take a Rogue package before you can take another Fighter or Wizard package.

The chart below is based on the average number of packages available per level and force the player to give something up in order to get something which keeps it balanced with non multiclassed classes.

Level     Packages
1           9 (must choose at least one Weapon Proficiency, Armor Proficiency, and Attack bonus package)
2           1
3           2
4           1
5           2

At first level you must choose at least one package that has weapon proficiencies and one package that has armor proficiencies.

So a first level Fighter / Wizard might look like this:


Fighter / Wizard 1st level
(Hit Points 10 + Con modifier + 4 + Con modifier) / 2
+1 to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution
+3 Magic Attack
Fighter Weapon Proficiencies
Fighter Armor Proficiencies {but still can't cast spells in armor}
Cantrip with DC 11 + Int Mod
1st level Wizard spell slot, DC 11 + Int mod, Int mod 1st level Wizard spells known
Expertise Dice 1d6
Deadly Strike Maneuver
Fighting Style + 1st level Maneuver for that style


Spells learned are up to the highest spell slot level known for that casting class.

What do you think about the modified version?
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The problem with the packages as they stand is that they're all over the place in terms of power.

 For example the fighter weapon profs vs. the wizard weapon profs, you have them valued the same but which is more potent?

 A specific rule banning multiple ability score picks would also be a good idea.

Other wise we're gonna see things like fighter-barbarian-paladin-ranger-cleric-swordmages who just put their 6 free package sinto boosting stregth or some such similar lunacy. 

Infact I'd advise thet you not make them packets and simply state that players just get the one and if they use this system at level one it has to be an ability that all of their chosen classes at first level could boost.

Look if you're going to reduce the class mechanics to the lvel of granularity required to do it this way, you may as well just call it a classless system.
To throw a Prestige Class in there you would do about the same thing The only difference is that you would track how many times you've leveled up since you multiclassed into the Prestige class in order to select packages. Here is an imaginary Prestige class:

Eldritch Knight (Requirements: Know at least one Maneuver and be able to cast at least one Wizard spell)
Level   Packages
1         (Weapon Attack +1), (Magic Attack +1), (Eldritch Knight Cantrip with DC 10 + Int Mod), (1st level Eldritch Knight spell slot with 10 + Int Mod DC and 1 Eldritch Knight spells {only learn spells once per level}), (Spell Weapon Maneuver)
2         (1st level Eldritch Knight spell slot with 10 + Int mod DC and 1 Eldritch Knight spell {only learn spells once per level}), (Spell Armor Maneuver).

Maneuvers:

Spell Weapon - Expend 1 expertise dice to channel an Eldritch Knight spell through your weapon. The area, range, and target of the spell is now limited to a single target within range of your weapon, you don't provoke opportunity attacks or gain disadvantage for casting a ranged spell in melee when using this Maneuver.

Spell Armor - Expend 1 expertise dice to channel an Eldritch Knight spell into your armor. The next successful attack made on you triggers the spell on the attacker. The area, range, and target of the spell is now limited to the attacker.

So a character that started as a Fighter for 2 levels then multiclassed into Wizard at level 3 could then at 4th level multiclass into Eldritch Knight and take the Spell Weapon Maneuver package, at level 5 they could take the Spell Armor Maneuver (because it is their second level being multiclassed with Eldritch Knight).

What do you think?
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I think the pure package idea doesn't work and you need to stop trying to treat classes like playdough, they're legos, or beta blocks.
The problem with the packages as they stand is that they're all over the place in terms of power.

 For example the fighter weapon profs vs. the wizard weapon profs, you have them valued the same but which is more potent?

 A specific rule banning multiple ability score picks would also be a good idea.

Other wise we're gonna see things like fighter-barbarian-paladin-ranger-cleric-swordmages who just put their 6 free package sinto boosting stregth or some such similar lunacy. 

Infact I'd advise thet you not make them packets and simply state that players just get the one and if they use this system at level one it has to be an ability that all of their chosen classes at first level could boost.

Look if you're going to reduce the class mechanics to the lvel of granularity required to do it this way, you may as well just call it a classless system.



Cool, I'll add that to the list of must choose only one.

Though if they did what you suggested and chose an ability boost to six scores a +1 is really not that much and they wouldn't be able to get Expertise dice or Maneuvers until level 3, no barbarian rage mechanic until level 3 (assuming it works in a similar progression to the Fighter maneuvers), no Paladin Smite mechanic until level 3 (assuming it works in a similar progression to the Fighter Maneuvers), no Cleric Channel Divinity until level 5, and no Sword Mage Spell Sword technique until level 3 (assuming the Fighter progression for Sword Mages), so you would be a featureless slightly above average score Character that could use all weapons and armors, which might not be a bad idea for players wanting a featureless fighter type...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
The problem with the packages as they stand is that they're all over the place in terms of power.

 For example the fighter weapon profs vs. the wizard weapon profs, you have them valued the same but which is more potent?

 A specific rule banning multiple ability score picks would also be a good idea.

Other wise we're gonna see things like fighter-barbarian-paladin-ranger-cleric-swordmages who just put their 6 free package sinto boosting stregth or some such similar lunacy. 

Infact I'd advise thet you not make them packets and simply state that players just get the one and if they use this system at level one it has to be an ability that all of their chosen classes at first level could boost.

Look if you're going to reduce the class mechanics to the lvel of granularity required to do it this way, you may as well just call it a classless system.



Also this would be a module in the back of the book for those that want to multi class...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Strength was the first example, that came to mind, upon fiurther reflection dex would probably be far mor dangerous, and waiting a level or two gain extra features after scoring the equivalent of a high end magic item at level one is not hard. Especially when you can benchpress an orc or dance on a drow's knife.

One of the major issues right now is opportunity cost, what's stopping me from MCing to every class and just picking the best packages? 
Strength was the first example, that came to mind, upon fiurther reflection dex would probably be far mor dangerous, and waiting a level or two gain extra features after scoring the equivalent of a high end magic item at level one is not hard. Especially when you can benchpress an orc or dance on a drow's knife.

One of the major issues right now is opportunity cost, what's stopping me from MCing to every class and just picking the best packages? 



The fact that you are limited in the number of packages you get so you have to choose which 'best' package to get.

For instance at level 3 you have to take 2 out of the following choices: Fighting Style Maneuver, Expertise Dice damage increase, Sneak Attack damage increase, a level 2 Wizard spell slot + new spells, a level 2 Cleric spell slot + new spells, 4 Willpower + 1 Sorcerer Spell Known, or a Warlock Pact Boon. That's assuming you have a combination of every class in the game. In other words you are limited to picking a few cool things.

They could make the packages more centralized. Maybe there are only three packages per class per level and you have to only choose 3 packages per level. Maybe at level 1 you get combat superiority and your maneuver and expertise dice all as one package. Maybe the clerics Orision is part of the Spell slot package.


"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Once you make the first multi-class you don't loose much just putting the other ones down with it, I get that there are limits to how many packs you get at a level, but since they vary so wildly in power there are probably gonna be a few each level that are better than most of the other options at that level.

Once I put down ftr-rogue I loose nothing by adding -cleric, and possibly -sor-warlock (wizard might not be terribly useful if I have armor and he'd just drag my HP down so we can skip him).

In discrete level style (3e) you pay for each new multiclass with the levels not going to other classes, in hybrid you only have x number of possible slots (usually 2), what downside/hard limit is there to mass-classing with your system? 
Once you make the first multi-class you don't loose much just putting the other ones down with it, I get that there are limits to how many packs you get at a level, but since they vary so wildly in power there are probably gonna be a few each level that are better than most of the other options at that level.

Once I put down ftr-rogue I loose nothing by adding -cleric, and possibly -sor-warlock (wizard might not be terribly useful if I have armor and he'd just drag my HP down so we can skip him).

In discrete level style (3e) you pay for each new multiclass with the levels not going to other classes, in hybrid you only have x number of possible slots (usually 2), what downside/hard limit is there to mass-classing with your system? 



I altered it a little in post #26:

"You must pick at least one package from each class you are multiclassed into. If you have more classes than packages at a level you must alternate between classes you choose your packages from so that you have at least one package from each class before you get another package from the same class. So if you are a Fighter/Wizard/Rogue and you take two packages one from Fighter and one from Wizard at your next level you must take a Rogue package before you can take another Fighter or Wizard package."

This will keep people from dipping in for just one feature or ability, because from then on they would have to alternate and get packages from each class...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Averaging 1.5 packages per level, I can still easily pick from 3 classes, this is better than 3rd for cherries. 

Sorry if I'm being thick but this all seems very convoluted. My players have taken the current test packet and started to multiclass straight-up 3e style and it works reasonably fine as is, though spell casting multis are borked (but we knew that).


I agree with Rampant here that what you're proposing is going to be much easier to understand if you discard the idea of classes entirely and create some kind of classless path system. Just ditch 'em and go with four broad categories like "arcane, divine, martial, subtlety" or whatever. Lay down some prereqs so nobody can end up with ~lvl 2 spells at clvl 1, but also allow a way around those prereqs (Big Shoes requires Big Feet to buy into unless you've reached clvl 7).


The packet thing could be pretty cool but I think classes are holding it back.

Averaging 1.5 packages per level, I can still easily pick from 3 classes, this is better than 3rd for cherries. 



Actually its not. There is a cost to any 'cherry' you get and you don't simply add what you want you have to give something up. Maybe an optimizer could come out a little ahead, but no where near what you could do in 3.xE. For instance in 3.xE you could do a Fighter/Rogue/Ranger and you would have all of the 1st level features of all three classes. Lots of skills, high BAB, All weapons and armor, Favored enemy, Two-weapon fighting. With the system I suggested you would have to pick and choose and you wouldn't get all of them, you would have to give up one or the other.


Sorry if I'm being thick but this all seems very convoluted. My players have taken the current test packet and started to multiclass straight-up 3e style and it works reasonably fine as is, though spell casting multis are borked (but we knew that).


I agree with Rampant here that what you're proposing is going to be much easier to understand if you discard the idea of classes entirely and create some kind of classless path system. Just ditch 'em and go with four broad categories like "arcane, divine, martial, subtlety" or whatever. Lay down some prereqs so nobody can end up with ~lvl 2 spells at clvl 1, but also allow a way around those prereqs (Big Shoes requires Big Feet to buy into unless you've reached clvl 7).


The packet thing could be pretty cool but I think classes are holding it back.




We can't discard the idea of classes. WotC would never go for that...

So you have a player that has chosen a Fighter/Rogue/Wizard that can deal 1d12 (Weapon) + 1d6 (Expertise Dice) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack) after casting Grease for the rest of the short encounter?

If you pick bad combination in 3.xE sure you won't find any brokenness, but if you pick good combinations you will be extremely overpowered. The same principles apply here.
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.

A system that has levels in the first place constructs a situation where there will be breaking points. The two multiclassed dudes I'm DMing is a fighter/cleric and a rogue/fighter. I have another guy who went pure rogue and I made a cleric NPC.


From my experience the stunted advancement is enough, but we did have to infer a bit about attack bonuses and just rule that if the attack bonus shows an increase from one level to the next, the multiclassed dude gets that increase else it stays the same.


So the rogue/fighter's weapon attack went to +3 when they took their first level of fighter. We haven't played to a point wher he's managed to get another attack bonus advancement but when he hits fighter 4 or rogue 5, he'll get another point which places him a minimum of 1 level behind the pure fighter in terms of weapon attack.


At lvl 2 he got 1 expertise die in addition to his 2d6 sneak attack. The lvl 2 rogue got 3d6 sneak attack. mkay, so I don't really see an issue there. Both characters get 3d6 so no worries there. The lvl 2 rogue gets knack and a scheme benefit, which lets him make sure he can land more sneak attacks and expands their options. The lvl 2 rogue/fighter gets a fighting style and the lvl 1 power associated with it (my player chose duelist) and the character's options are expanded in a proportionate way.


To be honest I fail to see the problem. There's still a bit of cherry picking potential to be had as we're playing it, 'cause some folks will consider that 2d6 sneak attack worth the level spent on getting it. Same goes for the lvl 1 fighting style perk, and if the consensus is that the cherry picking has to tone down from 3e (and I think it is), then probably things need to go a touch further to address that.


Your example with the fighter/rogue/wizard might be a little stronger at clvl 3 than a 2fighter/1rogue (but perhaps not a 1rogue/2fighter... the system is kind of odd that way), but by the time they hit clvl 4 or 5 the double class multis will probably pull ahead of the tri class and a pure class caster will totally outpace a multiclass caster - provided they don't find a creative use for their spells.


The flip side of being able to make a dud combo is you then have an opportunity to make it work. That can be really fun.

Yes, but what happens when you take the first 3 levels as fighter and then want to multiclass into Wizard? Do you suddenly lose your weapon proficiencies and armor proficiencies?

I'm with you on the average hit point thing, but we need this system to cover level 1 multiclassing as well as PrC multiclassing and even higher level multiclassing where you throw a class on at later levels.

Maybe you have certain packages you can only get at 1st level like armor and weapon proficiencies, you get average hit points between all classes that you multiclass into, then you have certain balanced packages you pick from at each level.

One of the things we want to prevent is the whole 10th level fighter with worthless level 1 spells when they multiclass into Wizard. This is why I suggested they only get the feature of that given level so the 10th level fighter that multiclasses into Wizard gets one spell slot for a 5th level spell...


I don't understand the problem with this.

Someone who just starts to learn magic (and its usage) should have to start with the basics and progress as anyone else who just started. It has nothing to do with the level of another class (especially one that has been practiced and mastered to the exclusion of learning about magic). Plus, with two classes that learn and use magic differently, I would expect it to be even more difficult to re-learn how to use magic for the second class.

Another thought - 


There are quite a few spells out there in 3e that are useful no matter what level they are. Shield springs immediately to mind. Of course the challenge at higher levels is for a guy with 10 levels in something and 1 level in wizard has to find a way to extend the duration of shield to something they can work with, but for me that's just one of the fun parts about coming up with nifty multicassing ideas.


I think what we really want to avoid is a lvl 8 fighter/7 wizard who's obviously built around a fighter/mage concept is gimped because of the way caster levels work. The concurrent system allows for relatively even advancement but could get over the top along with weird racial restrictions, but the 3e consecutive system let us be a little more flexible about how and when we broke into a new class. The trick is to get some of the concurrent advancement back without sacrificing on the flexibility.



Here's an idea: what if your caster level was in some way limited by your actual mage or priest levels. So a lvl 10 fighter goes wizard at lvl 11. They get lvl 1 spells and their caster level is 1. They gain a level, dump another level in wizard, but their caster level goes up by two for the purposes of what spells they can learn and cast (not the number of spells they can cast.. that seems to be the thing most people are stipulating). This would happen because half your fighter levels count toward your caster level, but the number of fighter levels that can contribute to your caster level can't be more than your wizard level. So assuming they'd carry on levelling wizard and leaving fighter at 10, by lvl 20 they'd have the spells known of a 15th level wizard but the spells/day of a 10th level wizard without suddenly gaining 3 spell levels worth of knowledge right off the bat.

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