9/18/2012 SF: "When Life Totals are Ashes You Have My Permission to Die"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Serious Fun, which goes live Tuesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
FIRST!

Ah-hah...

Anyway, this is a good casual card, and is obviously good in Commander, but it's a reactive enchantment at 7 that doesn't do anything possibly.

Eh, it has it's places. 
I am Blue/Green
I am Blue/Green
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Grave Pact.  Grave Pact!  GRAVE PACT!!!

Good job with this card, Adam.

AA 
So it's like Debtors' Knell but not as good? Fair enough.
I want to be Cultured.
So it's like Debtor's Knell but not as good? Fair enough.



How is it not as good?  Actually, this card has a different use than Debtor's Knell.  Debtor's Knell brings back a creature every turn.  This card brings back your opponents' creatures to your side whenever they die for any reason.  Yes it is at the end of a turn but there you go.

You kill it with on of your doom blades, you get it back.  You kill it with one of your creatures, you get it back.  They sacrifice it for an effect, you get it back (assuming they really felt like it was a good idea).  You play Damnation or someone else plays a WoG or Day of Judgement, you get all of your opponents' creatures back.  Etc...  It also, protects the creatures you bring back from a chunck of black removal and gives them the buffs and weaknesses of zombies should you or someone else take advantage of that.

 I personally like this card.
IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1205820039/Scorecards/Landscape.png)
@Green - It's not as good as DK(in my opinion) because it doesn't actually do anything on it's own and is totally reactionary, and can't create stupid combos in the same way that Debtors can, and in fact doesn't actually make use of you in the slightest. I don't like really expensive permanents that not only rely on my opponent having good things to make it worth the cost, but that I actually can't make the most out of myself.

It's not bad. It just looks like a brother to Debtors and is more like a shadow of it.
I want to be Cultured.
I have to say, when I saw the art for this card on the front page, I was hyped. Even more so when I heard that it was likely to be the new Becon of Unrest (one of my all time favourite cards).

When I saw the card itself, my enthusiasm drained away.

Don't get me wrong, the effect is amazing. However, why did it have to be stuck on an enchantment of all things? They're the most boring cards in magic. All they do is sit there over the game and irritate you, like a fat bloke on a plane, who overflows into your seat.

Why couldn't this effect have been on a creature? Like, to take a random example, the awsome dracolich thing in the artwork. Seriously, it looks amazing - I thought we were about to see Bladewing the Risen's older brother - Some sort of Dragon Necromancer... thing. I really don't see why this effect couldn't have been on an undead dragon creature, even if it ended up costing a little extra - it just would have been so much cooler.

But no, instead we get some really awsome art (for a nonexistant creature), stuck on a very dull, flavourless enchantment.

Sigh.
Reminds me a lot of Lim-Dul the Necromancer. But this is far better.
This is a sick card. It would stink in the pre-rotation Standard constructed metagame, but post-rotation it might have a home. With SOM gone, not many boards are going to have Naturalize type effects and countermagic is definitely not going to be as heavily played.

Seems like it would work well with the new Liliana.
I have to say, when I saw the art for this card on the front page, I was hyped. Even more so when I heard that it was likely to be the new Becon of Unrest (one of my all time favourite cards).

When I saw the card itself, my enthusiasm drained away.

Don't get me wrong, the effect is amazing. However, why did it have to be stuck on an enchantment of all things? They're the most boring cards in magic. All they do is sit there over the game and irritate you, like a fat bloke on a plane, who overflows into your seat.

Why couldn't this effect have been on a creature? Like, to take a random example, the awsome dracolich thing in the artwork. Seriously, it looks amazing - I thought we were about to see Bladewing the Risen's older brother - Some sort of Dragon Necromancer... thing. I really don't see why this effect couldn't have been on an undead dragon creature, even if it ended up costing a little extra - it just would have been so much cooler.

But no, instead we get some really awsome art (for a nonexistant creature), stuck on a very dull, flavourless enchantment.

Sigh.

Really? Enchantments are boring? What about the curses or something like search the city?

But also don't despair yet, it could be a creature depicted on this.
Voted for a Damia deck, I think its only right for one gorgon to be leading another.
I have to say, when I saw the art for this card on the front page, I was hyped. Even more so when I heard that it was likely to be the new Becon of Unrest (one of my all time favourite cards).

When I saw the card itself, my enthusiasm drained away.

Don't get me wrong, the effect is amazing. However, why did it have to be stuck on an enchantment of all things? They're the most boring cards in magic. All they do is sit there over the game and irritate you, like a fat bloke on a plane, who overflows into your seat.

Why couldn't this effect have been on a creature? Like, to take a random example, the awsome dracolich thing in the artwork. Seriously, it looks amazing - I thought we were about to see Bladewing the Risen's older brother - Some sort of Dragon Necromancer... thing. I really don't see why this effect couldn't have been on an undead dragon creature, even if it ended up costing a little extra - it just would have been so much cooler.

But no, instead we get some really awsome art (for a nonexistant creature), stuck on a very dull, flavourless enchantment.

Sigh.

Really? Enchantments are boring? What about the curses or something like search the city?

But also don't despair yet, it could be a creature depicted on this.

Search the city is interesting because it's very unusual - it hardly sets the standard for enchantments. The curses are an interesting idea, but the selection is small to begin with, and of those most are still pretty dull.

Wow, I'm now cursed and can only cast one spell per turn. I'm sure this will be a thrilling game...

Also, It's highly unlikely that the creature on Grave Betrayal is an actual creature. If it was, then Grave Betrayal would more likely be called something different, which included the name of said creature. Or, failing that, flavour text that features said creature (or both of these).

Those would indicate forshadowing of a powerful creature. The fact that the card has a bland name, and no flavour text indicates that it has no ties to any particular creature.
Wow, I'm now cursed and can only cast one spell per turn. I'm sure this will be a thrilling game...


If we're playing, I hope you have a boring game.  If you're thrilled, I'm probably not winning.....

I have to say, when I saw the art for this card on the front page, I was hyped. Even more so when I heard that it was likely to be the new Becon of Unrest (one of my all time favourite cards).

When I saw the card itself, my enthusiasm drained away.

Don't get me wrong, the effect is amazing. However, why did it have to be stuck on an enchantment of all things? They're the most boring cards in magic. All they do is sit there over the game and irritate you, like a fat bloke on a plane, who overflows into your seat.

Why couldn't this effect have been on a creature? Like, to take a random example, the awsome dracolich thing in the artwork. Seriously, it looks amazing - I thought we were about to see Bladewing the Risen's older brother - Some sort of Dragon Necromancer... thing. I really don't see why this effect couldn't have been on an undead dragon creature, even if it ended up costing a little extra - it just would have been so much cooler.

But no, instead we get some really awsome art (for a nonexistant creature), stuck on a very dull, flavourless enchantment.

Sigh.

Really? Enchantments are boring? What about the curses or something like search the city?

But also don't despair yet, it could be a creature depicted on this.

Search the city is interesting because it's very unusual - it hardly sets the standard for enchantments. The curses are an interesting idea, but the selection is small to begin with, and of those most are still pretty dull.

Wow, I'm now cursed and can only cast one spell per turn. I'm sure this will be a thrilling game...

Also, It's highly unlikely that the creature on Grave Betrayal is an actual creature. If it was, then Grave Betrayal would more likely be called something different, which included the name of said creature. Or, failing that, flavour text that features said creature (or both of these).

Those would indicate forshadowing of a powerful creature. The fact that the card has a bland name, and no flavour text indicates that it has no ties to any particular creature.

it has no flavor text because it has no room.
Remember the guild champions they trolled for sinker? could be him
Wow, I'm now cursed and can only cast one spell per turn. I'm sure this will be a thrilling game...


If we're playing, I hope you have a boring game.  If you're thrilled, I'm probably not winning.....

Ha. I couldn't disagree more. I much prefer games when both I and the opponent get to enjoy it, get our decks to "do their thing" to some extent, and where we come away smiling at the end. Ideally I'd also win the majority of those games, but that's definitely secondary to people enjoying themselves. 

Magic is many different games to many people.
Wow, I'm now cursed and can only cast one spell per turn. I'm sure this will be a thrilling game...


If we're playing, I hope you have a boring game.  If you're thrilled, I'm probably not winning.....

Ha. I couldn't disagree more. I much prefer games when both I and the opponent get to enjoy it, get our decks to "do their thing" to some extent, and where we come away smiling at the end. Ideally I'd also win the majority of those games, but that's definitely secondary to people enjoying themselves. 

Magic is many different games to many people.



I'm the same - I find that the games I enjoy most are the ones that fluctuate back and forth a lot.
Wow, I'm now cursed and can only cast one spell per turn. I'm sure this will be a thrilling game...


If we're playing, I hope you have a boring game.  If you're thrilled, I'm probably not winning.....

Ha. I couldn't disagree more. I much prefer games when both I and the opponent get to enjoy it, get our decks to "do their thing" to some extent, and where we come away smiling at the end. Ideally I'd also win the majority of those games, but that's definitely secondary to people enjoying themselves. 

Magic is many different games to many people.



I'm the same - I find that the games I enjoy most are the ones that fluctuate back and forth a lot.

yeah, and this card helps with that. also, debtors knell is an enchantment, and you don't have anything against it.


I'm the same - I find that the games I enjoy most are the ones that fluctuate back and forth a lot.

yeah, and this card helps with that. also, debtors knell is an enchantment, and you don't have anything against it.



1) When did I, at any point, say that I had nothing against Debtor's Knell? The reason I haven't talked about it (or any of the other dull enchantments) is that they're not the cards being previewed.

Also, considering that I already said that I hated enchantments, I'd have thought that 'I hate it' would be a good defult assumption, regarding my opinion to an enchantment I've yet to mention one way or the other.

2) How exactly does Grave Betrayal make for an interesting and fluctuating game? Surely there are 3 general scenarios:

a) You play it, but your opponent is playing a creatureless (or near-creatureless) deck, so it does nothing.

b) You play it against a creature-based deck, but your opponent kills it with enchantment removal, so it does nothing.

c) You play it against a creature-based deck, and your opponent either doesn't draw his enchantment removal, or doesn't have access to any, and so Grave Betrayal completely dominates the game.

I see possible fluctuations in the performance of the card, but I really don't see how it would possibly lead to an interesting back-and-forth game. Either it will do nothing, or it will dominate the game - neither or which are fun.


I'm the same - I find that the games I enjoy most are the ones that fluctuate back and forth a lot.

yeah, and this card helps with that. also, debtors knell is an enchantment, and you don't have anything against it.



1) When did I, at any point, say that I had nothing against Debtor's Knell? The reason I haven't talked about it (or any of the other dull enchantments) is that they're not the cards being previewed.

Also, considering that I already said that I hated enchantments, I'd have thought that 'I hate it' would be a good defult assumption, regarding my opinion to an enchantment I've yet to mention one way or the other.

2) How exactly does Grave Betrayal make for an interesting and fluctuating game? Surely there are 3 general scenarios:

a) You play it, but your opponent is playing a creatureless (or near-creatureless) deck, so it does nothing.

b) You play it against a creature-based deck, but your opponent kills it with enchantment removal, so it does nothing.

c) You play it against a creature-based deck, and your opponent either doesn't draw his enchantment removal, or doesn't have access to any, and so Grave Betrayal completely dominates the game.

I see possible fluctuations in the performance of the card, but I really don't see how it would possibly lead to an interesting back-and-forth game. Either it will do nothing, or it will dominate the game - neither or which are fun.

it does help, because if you are behind, you can gain an advantage but then have it destroyed. Also, this card is for commander. in commander, destroying it is probably easy, but it will help you a lot before then.
Call to the Grave... Need I say more?
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