Question regarding counterspells (2-part)

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The first part of this question relates specifically to Reassembling Skeletons, where the ability text states "Return Reassembling Skeleton from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped". I take this to mean that if the creature was countered, it never entered the battlefield in the first place, and thus it's ability cannot be used in this instance.

The second part is simple, and a yes/no should suffice. Do Planeswalkers count as a spell that can be countered?
The first part of this question relates specifically to Reassembling Skeletons, where the ability text states "Return Reassembling Skeleton from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped". I take this to mean that if the creature was countered, it never entered the battlefield in the first place, and thus it's ability cannot be used in this instance.

"Return" just means "move". It doesn't actually matter whether or not the piece of cardboard currently representing reassembling skeleton in the graveyard has previously represented a reassembling skeleton on the battlefield.
The second part is simple, and a yes/no should suffice. Do Planeswalkers count as a spell that can be countered?

Yes.

All nonland cards are spells from the time they are cast until the time they resolve.

To the first part, it can be used if Reassembling Skeleton was never on the battlefield in the first place. The verb "return" is just always used when referencing a move from the graveyard to the battlefield. It doesn't actually have to be returning.

Planeswalkers are spells after they're cast but before they make it to the battlefield, yes.
It doesn't matter how Reassembling Skeleton made it into the graveyard, the key thing is that it is in the graveyard.  
"Return" just means "move". It doesn't actually matter whether or not the piece of cardboard currently representing reassembling skeleton in the graveyard has previously represented a reassembling skeleton on the battlefield.



Call me a dunce and a **** if you wish, but that's disgusting.  Partly because I've been told so often that the wizards mean what they say and say what they mean. Partly because I've repeated that canard so frequently.

And because ... here? ... I saw the MTG use of "zone" called slang, which it is not.

But a word that isn't even slang it's so anti-English? 

And,  because the CompRules have no definition of such a greatly mis-used Englixh word. Lots of definitions, not that one.    

How in blazes can a player who doesn't search  for wizardy definitions of every English word commonly used in mtg know what the faux-English means? Or know that it's faux? 




raz
It doesn't matter how Reassembling Skeleton made it into the graveyard, the key thing is that it is in the graveyard. 



The Skeleton does "return" (hah!) to the battlefield?
If so, what makes one activated ability more versatile than another?
Why pay to cast Jace, Memory Adept if you can discard it and activate its abilities turn one?
Why not use or discard Culling the Weak and get bunches of mana while its in the graveyard?
Reduce my Aquastrand Spider's toughness to zero?  Who cares, just activate the ability from the graveyard?
Innyhoo, thanks
raz  
      
I'm sorry, what are you asking here exactly? Reassembling Skeleton's ability can be used from the graveyard specifically because it references the object in question being in the graveyard. The other cards can't be cast/activated from the graveyard because the rules don't work that way.

From the tone you're using to write, you sound bitter, and I'm not sure why you would be. Care to elaborate?
400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:

400.7a Effects from spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities that change the characteristics of a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to the permanent that spell becomes.

400.7b Prevention effects that apply to damage from a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to damage from the permanent that spell becomes.

400.7c If an ability of a permanent requires information about choices made as that permanent was cast as a spell, including what mana was spent to cast that spell, it uses information about the spell that became that permanent as it resolved.

400.7d Abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, "When Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield") can find the new object that it became in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered, if that zone is a public zone.

400.7e Abilities of Auras that trigger when the enchanted permanent leaves the battlefield can find the new object that Aura became in its owner's graveyard if it was put into that graveyard at the same time the enchanted permanent left the battlefield. It can also find the new object that Aura became in its owner's graveyard as a result of being put there as a state-based action for not being attached to a permanent. (See rule 704.5n.)

400.7f If an effect grants a nonland card an ability that allows it to be cast, that ability will continue to apply to the new object that card became after it moved to the stack as a result of being cast this way.

400.7g A resolving spell or activated ability can perform actions on an object that moved from one zone to another while that spell was being cast or that ability was being activated, if that object moved to a public zone.


If a graveyard includes four Reassembling Skeleton that went there from four different zones, there is no distinction among them.

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

It doesn't matter how Reassembling Skeleton made it into the graveyard, the key thing is that it is in the graveyard. 



The Skeleton does "return" (hah!) to the battlefield?
If so, what makes one activated ability more versatile than another?
Why pay to cast Jace, Memory Adept if you can discard it and activate its abilities turn one?
Why not use or discard Culling the Weak and get bunches of mana while its in the graveyard?
Reduce my Aquastrand Spider's toughness to zero?  Who cares, just activate the ability from the graveyard?
Innyhoo, thanks
raz  
      



The example with the skeletn is accually in the rules.

112.6. Abilities of an instant or sorcery spell usually function only while that object is on the stack. Abilities of all other objects usually function only while that object is on the battlefield. The exceptions are as follows:
...
112.6k An ability whose cost or effect specifies that it moves the object it’s on out of a particular zone functions only in that zone, unless that ability’s trigger condition, or a previous part of that ability’s cost or effect, specifies that the object is put into that zone. 
Example: Reassembling Skeleton says “{1}{B}: Return Reassembling Skeleton from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.” A player may activate this ability only if Reassembling Skeleton is in his or her graveyard.

 

Level 1 Judge

I guess there's some pertinence to this complaint: the use of the verb «return» is somewhat misleading.
"Return" just means "move".

That certainly is true, but NO rule says so...


How in blazes can a player who doesn't search  for wizardy definitions of every English word commonly used in mtg know what the faux-English means? Or know that it's faux?

Magic redefines about 500 words from the English language,
most of which can be found in The Glossary, at the very end of the Comprehensive Rules.
This game is not for the feeble-minded!

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I'm sorry, what are you asking here exactly? Reassembling Skeleton's ability can be used from the graveyard specifically because it references the object in question being in the graveyard. The other cards can't be cast/activated from the graveyard because the rules don't work that way. From the tone you're using to write, you sound bitter, and I'm not sure why you would be. Care to elaborate?



Thanks for the responsive question. Here's too much - probably - of an answer.
The previous session with the savaging opponent and his girlfriend/ex-wife had ended with me saying to the ex-cardshop, magic-tourney-running guy who has played since day one, that discussion of "return" would be helpful.  [Many cards just didn't read right to me in their presumed context.]  He just looked at me as if I were crazy/nuts. [Well, duh! - depressive AND hysterical.] So, I thought: the word must mean what it says, given the Great MTG Canard - means what they say.
This is the guy I refused to play with for a while because he systematically wove not just his lands but all the other cards and never mulliganed in maybe a hundred games, and who "mulliganed" choices during games before turn changes. 
This time I  followed their trend - one opp at a time -of tapping all lands to be used to cast Traumatize and Mind Sculpt - having waited and waited for Undead Alchemist without payoff, played the big lib-killer and decided to wait a turn for the Sculpt. Tried to undo (mulligan) the last two mana taps. And was snarled at by the multiple-undoer.
So I went ahead and played the Sculpt and forgot to tap my Tormod's Crypt.
Then he looks for his Ashen Ghoul in his graveyard and MAYBE finds it has the requisite creatures above it, and pays the mana to return it.    My "what?!?!?" was savaged and his usually calm GF entered the fray with hysterical verbiage; she was already upset because of things he did. And I could not get my questioning's shadow in play.
So, instead of adding the Crpt's tap to the stack, I picked up my cards and stopped the game and he savaged me some and departed; the GF, my friend for quite a while played a couple games.
Besides his and my intrinisc, great "character" faults - my meds don't work on mine - I am 73 and on very small SocSec; they are in their 60s, and really the only opponents available. I have spent a wad on mtg, getting into it because he, a supposed chess fan, wanted to also play MTG. He had lost the only two chess games we played and lost his great interest.
And then there is all the fecal-nados in my life circumstances.
So, I am bitter about even me, before all the rest.
Sorry, and thanks  
raz


PS This is the guy who has been saying he has grounds - and intent - to sue the Wizards over the rules touching on his weaving.  
Argus_*, od256, Chaikov:  Thanks very much.
"Return" just means "move". It doesn't actually matter whether or not the piece of cardboard currently representing reassembling skeleton in the graveyard has previously represented a reassembling skeleton on the battlefield.



Call me a dunce and a **** if you wish, but that's disgusting.  Partly because I've been told so often that the wizards mean what they say and say what they mean. Partly because I've repeated that canard so frequently.

The following English definition applies here:
Give, put, or send (something) back to a place or person.
Example: Complete the application form and return it to this address.

The form/card might never have been at that address/zone, yet it is still returned to that address/zone.

Is that dude still running tourneys? Is he a DCI Judge? If either of those is true, he should be reported.
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Is that dude still running tourneys? Is he a DCI Judge? If either of those is true, he should be reported.



No. They lost their shop a few years ago: Landlords (air and heating, broken window, leaking roof) and the right weather to finish them.


raz
"Return" just means "move". It doesn't actually matter whether or not the piece of cardboard currently representing reassembling skeleton in the graveyard has previously represented a reassembling skeleton on the battlefield.



Call me a dunce and a **** if you wish, but that's disgusting.  Partly because I've been told so often that the wizards mean what they say and say what they mean. Partly because I've repeated that canard so frequently.

The following English definition applies here:
Give, put, or send (something) back to a place or person.
Example: Complete the application form and return it to this address.

The form/card might never have been at that address/zone, yet it is still returned to that address/zone.




Not exactly, sir. You have implicitly redefined "back".  And the form actually comes from the destination, a corporation or other organization. Take something from my right hand and then put it my left hand and you have returned it to me.
They use return as a matter of convenience because typically something that's in one place usualy came from the other place.

Return is used for many zone movements:

battlefield to hand
graveyard to battlefield
exile to battlefield
graveyard to hand
graveyard to library
stack to hand

although return implies that the object in question was previously in the prior zone, there is no requirement for it to have been for the movement to occur, they could have used put synonymously, but for text flow reasons they chose return instead and as you've noticed, sometimes return does not seem to be the appropriate verb/instruction

return is used in situations where the movement is opposite the logical flow

These are the logical flows:

hand to stack (normal casting)
hand to battlefield (playing lands)
hand to graveyard (discard)
stack to battlefield (resolving permanent spell)
stack to graveyard (countered spells and resolving non-permanent spells)
library to hand (draw)
library to graveyard (mill effects) 
battlefield to graveyard (die, sacrifice, destroy, legend rule, etc)
battlefield to exile (exile effects)

any movement that is the opposite of these is likely to use return

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Think of all the black ink that could have been saved by using the actual English word, "move".


And at the same time avoid a major demonstration of the Golden Canard.


raz
"Return" just means "move". It doesn't actually matter whether or not the piece of cardboard currently representing reassembling skeleton in the graveyard has previously represented a reassembling skeleton on the battlefield.



Call me a dunce and a **** if you wish, but that's disgusting.  Partly because I've been told so often that the wizards mean what they say and say what they mean. Partly because I've repeated that canard so frequently.

The following English definition applies here:
Give, put, or send (something) back to a place or person.
Example: Complete the application form and return it to this address.

The form/card might never have been at that address/zone, yet it is still returned to that address/zone.




Not exactly, sir. You have implicitly redefined "back".

I didn't write that; it came from a dictionary. You're claiming a dictionary redefined "back", which is not likely.

"Return" just means "move". It doesn't actually matter whether or not the piece of cardboard currently representing reassembling skeleton in the graveyard has previously represented a reassembling skeleton on the battlefield.



Call me a dunce and a **** if you wish, but that's disgusting.  Partly because I've been told so often that the wizards mean what they say and say what they mean. Partly because I've repeated that canard so frequently.

The following English definition applies here:
Give, put, or send (something) back to a place or person.
Example: Complete the application form and return it to this address.

The form/card might never have been at that address/zone, yet it is still returned to that address/zone.




Not exactly, sir. You have implicitly redefined "back".

I didn't write that; it came from a dictionary. You're claiming a dictionary redefined "back", which is not likely.





It is using it as you did that signified your implicit redefinition.  There is no way the dictionary folk would countenance your wielding of their definition of "return" as you did.  

raz
No, the example came from the dictionary too.
No, the example came from the dictionary too.


The  dictionary folk knew darn well that the return form came from the organization it is to be sent to.
Are we really arguing about what "return from A to B" means if something was never in B?  This seems overly pedantic, even for the Rules forum.

I bet it was chosen because "Return from graveyard" seems to sound more magical than "Move from graveyard".  I certainly prefer to return things from the grave than to merely move them from one place to another.

Why play black if you can't return a zombie or skeleton from the grave, and optionally laugh manaiacally while doing it?

Also, what does this have to do with counterspells?

The new set is called "Return to Ravnica"


Have you ever been in Ravnica before?


This is really crazy :P Chill out and learn that words are part of the game to.

No, the example came from the dictionary too.

The  dictionary folk knew darn well that the return form came from the organization it is to be sent to.

No way. You could have printed it yourself, yet the usage would still have been fine. The form only conceptually needs to have come from the place to which it is being returned. There's no need for it to have actually been there.

Are we really arguing about what "return from A to B" means if something was never in B?

No, we know what it means. Rastofan_Onker is arguing that it's not a valid usage (presumably because he wants a rules change or a wording change). I've been pointing out why each of his argument is invalid.
Are we really arguing about what "return from A to B" means if something was never in B?  This seems overly pedantic, even for the Rules forum.

Our friend Ikegami very seldom tolerate not having the last word. Your only hope is to quit responding.

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