Need an Int/Cha fifth wheel that is awesome.

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Hi. So we're starting a new group, which we haven't done in ages.

 Our party:

Grappling fighter
Melee ranger
Shaman (of some sort)
Wrathful invoker

So I have a lot of options for what role to take... But we have no intelligence or charisma. So I want both of them.

I would also like to deal good damage, because that's what fifth wheels do.

I really have no idea what I want to play other than the stats though, so it's a pretty huge search space.

Help me out!

Thanks,
SadFish 
I'd be tempted to go Resourceful Warlord, just because buffing a melee ranger's damage rolls is all kinds of awesome.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
They need Strength unless they're also Paragon tier Bards.
I've played an Int/Cha Eldarin Lazy Warlord and I enjoyed it. You can grab 2 feats that buff your healing (Improved Inspiring Word and Tactical Inspiration) and can still enable a lot.
Already have the shaman, two leader parties are boring for all involved players.
They need Strength unless they're also Paragon tier Bards.

You can be a straight lazy-lord, nothing but Int/Cha with maybe Bracers of Mental Might.

But I don't really think you need another full leader. Int|Cha Warlock|Swordmage, either Tiefling or Eladrin. Warlock|Warlord (also Int|Cha, take lazy powers or powers that use an MBA like Vengence is Mine and Death from Two Sides, and use Eldritch Strike as the MBA). Lots of options really.
Warlock|Warlord and Swordmage|Warlock were the only two things I've been looking at, but I'm not sure how I like covering *all* the int and cha skills when I only get 3.

They seem so hard to put together though, hard to crit on 19-20 and paragon path choice seems so arbitrary... 
Already have the shaman, two leader parties are boring for all involved players.



With only 5 players I could see that, just trying to get some ideas down.
Right, sorry! My DM is literally in the room right now, there's lots of pressure to find something fairly quickly. Apologies if I seemed snappish.
Warlock|Warlord and Swordmage|Warlock were the only two things I've been looking at, but I'm not sure how I like covering *all* the int and cha skills when I only get 3.

They seem so hard to put together though, hard to crit on 19-20 and paragon path choice seems so arbitrary... 

If you want to be a skill monkey, Cunning Bard is really the top tier choice. But for the most part having stat primary is usually enough, plus you can get one more skill from MCing and MCing is nearly always worth it.

PPs are incredibly important for all of those builds... many of them are build defining. Not arbitrary at all.
The Int-cha stereotypes would be Lock of some sort, Bard, and lazylord.  Of those, locks have the most "can be built funny" interest to me.

Alternates include the Int-only set (Wizards, Swordmages).  Specifically a Wizard can get good coverage of Cha skills via cantrips and "Arcane Muttering", and not need an actual Cha score.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Right, sorry! My DM is literally in the room right now, there's lots of pressure to find something fairly quickly. Apologies if I seemed snappish.




No problem at all, I didn't take it that way and I was hoping my response wasn't angry.
Not necessarily a skill monkey, but Cunning Bard was definitely an idea... But it didn't seem possible to turn it into a compelling damage dealer. Just a leader/controller in a group with a leader and a controller.

As far as paragon paths for Swordmage|Warlock and Warlord|Warlock, nothing really speaks to me at all. There are also no handbooks for specific hybrids. Any idea which things I should be looking at? Search space is too large! 
If the DM wants you to pick now, as if you can get an LFR retrain (or a minor rebuild) in a few levels when you have a better sense of the character?

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Yeah, I should be able to. But it's not so much "pick now!" as "hurry up".

He also said that he's considering letting me homebrew up an Ultimate Magus, which I've always wanted to play, so that may end up being awesome. 
Lord|Lock are about granting attacks.  Sorcerer-king, Praetor Legate/Warmaster.  Unfortunately, the lock attack granting powers kick in at higher levels than most campaigns go.  (You specialize in Warlord "we both get MBA" powers, because your MBA is pretty sick)

Sword-locks are about being ultimate defenders, and stereotypically Con|Int.  As Int|Cha, you'd be an assualt swordmage with a strong and more annoying mark penalty than most.  But it's not likely going to be a char-op build, and there's no obvious PP outside of academy student. 

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Yeah, that was exactly my train of thought on the second. Cha/int Swordmage|Warlock looked awesome until I started trying to actually put one together.

Praetor Legate? Really? Doesn't seem particularly interesting or good. I'm sure better exists. 
What about a Resourceful Magician Bard? Rough idea in my in-play build thread. 
I'd go with a bard, they are really good 5th wheels. Sounds like you want a stiker, but int is pretty useless to them
I'd go with a bard, they are really good 5th wheels. Sounds like you want a stiker, but int is pretty useless to them


Warlock.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
I'd go with a bard, they are really good 5th wheels. Sounds like you want a stiker, but int is pretty useless to them


Warlock.



He asked for a striker, not a controller. Tongue Out

In all seriousness, zelink's Bookish Barbarian (SM|Barb) is dual primary str-int striker.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
No, he asked for a 5th man for a balanced party, so a reasonable single target strier/controller is fine.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
I meant the person you quoted (masa) not the OP.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Warlock should work pretty well.  Dark, Star, Fey, Elemental and Sorcerer King pacts are open to Chalocks (though if you want solid damage in heroic, you're pretty much going Sorcerer King for Mindbite Scorn).   The only problem with Warlock as Int/Cha skill monkey is that Diplomacy isn't on the skill list without burning a background or feat on it (though all the other Cha skills are).
Grappling fighter
Melee ranger
Shaman (of some sort)
Wrathful invoker

Dragonborn Barbarian|Cleric/Fighter/Mithral Arm
Escaped Slave Theme
Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Streetwise plus one other skill
Hybrid Talent (Thaneborn)
U2: Secrets of the City

In heroic, with the Thaneborn encounter powers, you're a world-class striker. At Paragon consider retraining Hybrid Talent to Draconic Arrogance and swapping into the countless Barbarian push and prone powers. 

With the U2 your effective Intelligence and all Int-based skills are pegged to Streetwise, enabling the following sort of silly scenario:

NPC in middle of the woods: "What was the Seventh Protocol of Zwiether the Thrice-Cursed?"
You: "Hold on."
[Walk to nearest hamlet. Approach village idiot picking nose at edge of town.]
You: "Yo! Where's the nearest brothel?"
Village Idiot: "Dur. Brothel?"
You: "Later bra."
[Walk back.]
You: "The Laminate Layers of Heaven must be Ascended Through Purity of Singular Motive. You wanna get yourself in that frame of mind before I slice off the top of your skull?"

Praetor Legate? Really? Doesn't seem particularly interesting or good. I'm sure better exists. 

The AP feature does weird things with Action Point economy.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Int/Cha assault swordmage / sorcerer king warlock can be fun. I've seen one played through mid-heroic through mid-epic (eventually picking up fey pact slashing then long night scion)
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Hi. So we're starting a new group, which we haven't done in ages.

 Our party:

Grappling fighter
Melee ranger
Shaman (of some sort)
Wrathful invoker

So I have a lot of options for what role to take... But we have no intelligence or charisma. So I want both of them.

I would also like to deal good damage, because that's what fifth wheels do.

I really have no idea what I want to play other than the stats though, so it's a pretty huge search space.

Help me out!

Thanks,
SadFish 

I would go with Tiefling Pyromancer/ Evoker, with charisma secondary. Mages only need Int really, so you can pump Cha and do some interesting tricks with it, like basing your inititive with it, and multiclassing Warlock for control/ strikery goodness. 

With the right Feats/ Paragon Path/ stuff you can get pretty close to striker level damage, and you spread that love around. You do give up a lot of controleriness though.

It can be built, and it can be done.  
Okay, so currently I'm looking at Eladrin Warlock, hybrided with either Swordmage or Warlord.

I haven't really thought about Pacts yet.

For the Swordmage, Sword of Assault looks like it could be lots of fun.

Praetor Legate seems really boring to me, no matter how good the AP feature is, doesn't do much that sings to me. Any other things to look at?

Pact-wise, because I doubt my Hybrid Talent is going for any boons, Sorcerer-King seems a lot more meh than normal. Fey opens up a thing or two, but also, mostly meh. 

Any suggestion for things to look at? Including themes.

Thanks! 
Okay, so currently I'm looking at Eladrin Warlock, hybrided with either Swordmage or Warlord.

I haven't really thought about Pacts yet.

For the Swordmage, Sword of Assault looks like it could be lots of fun.

Praetor Legate seems really boring to me, no matter how good the AP feature is, doesn't do much that sings to me. Any other things to look at?

Pact-wise, because I doubt my Hybrid Talent is going for any boons, Sorcerer-King seems a lot more meh than normal. Fey opens up a thing or two, but also, mostly meh. 

Any suggestion for things to look at? Including themes.

Thanks! 


If you take Twofold Pact in paragon, you get the boon (and an at-will) of your second pact without needing to use your Hybrid Talent. Make your first pact one that has great riders on the powers, because you get those, and choose a second pact with a boon you can make the most of.
You want a bonus to INT-based skills, yes? If you're willing to be unrepentantly unsavory (not to say evil), you could take the Cultist theme, taking the level 6 power Ritual Sacrifice. Just ask that your party leave one creature alive in your first combat of the day (remember, you always have the option to do nonlethal damage to a critter you would otherwise kill, so just have them knock out one poor fool for you to sacrifice) so you can do the old cut-de-grass on 'em, and you'll be rocking a +5 bonus to several INT-based skills (Arcana and Religion, which are the big ones . . . and Nature and Dungeoneering, because why not) for the bulk of the day. Your party might be a bit squeamish, but you might try mentioning that you were going to kill them ANYWAY ("adventurer" is just another word for "rich, violent hobo," after all), and it's not like they'll be awake to notice it.
Twofold Pact on a hybrid is munchkining.

That Cultist thing is awesome fluff, but I played Chaotic Evil last campaign. This time I'm looking at CG or LG. 
Twofold Pact on a hybrid is munchkining.

That Cultist thing is awesome fluff, but I played Chaotic Evil last campaign. This time I'm looking at CG or LG. 



They went out of their way to change the wording so that hybrids don't get the pact boon from the original pact choice, but they didn't change the fact that it still says "you gain the at-will spell and pact boon of that pact." If it wasn't intended that even hybrids could get the second pact's boon, I don't see why they didn't put that in somewhere.
(as far as Pact goes, I like Fey for the most fun.  Mire the Mind (notice the duration of the skill bonus) and "Elusive Hexer" are great fun)

You might want to get onto IRC for a quicker back-and-forth about PPs/other options? 

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I've reset my history and can't find the IRC info, if I could grab that again I'd love it.

Did they, akmpe? Seriously, this is RAI? I don't know if I believe that, the rationalist in my is screaming out against it.
freenode, ##4eCO.

He's not making that up.   Per the compendium, 'In the second sentence, replace “both pacts” with “that pact.”' was the change in the 6/14 update.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Twofold Pact on a hybrid is munchkining.

That Cultist thing is awesome fluff, but I played Chaotic Evil last campaign. This time I'm looking at CG or LG. 



They went out of their way to change the wording so that hybrids don't get the pact boon from the original pact choice, but they didn't change the fact that it still says "you gain the at-will spell and pact boon of that pact." If it wasn't intended that even hybrids could get the second pact's boon, I don't see why they didn't put that in somewhere.



Because they badly worded the update? I think from an RAI perspective, they were trying to make sure that a hybrid who didn't have pact boon didn't suddenly gain two pact boons and that a hybrid who had a pact boon as the hybrid talent feat still got the full benefit.

But as per usual, when they made options, they often forget about what default hybrids get...

No real question as to what the RAW is, though.