[Color Pie] Blue

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I really wish blue wouldn't get efficient creatures. It infringes upon the colors that are supposed to have good creatures (green/white)

Taking a look at standard, modern, and legacy we see that blue has not only the best noncreature spells but the best creatures as well.

Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Vendillion Clique, even Talrand

Geist of St. Traft is excusable due to being part white, but these extremely efficient mono-blue creatures have to stop.

Wizards can't just all of a sudden decide that blue should be a tempo color rather than a control color. While its fine for Standard, when you add it to the eternal cardpool suddenly you have a color with amazing counterspells, amazing hand and library manipulation, bounce based removal spells, time manipulation, efficient card draw, permanent stealing, and now strong creatures.

Back when blue was only about counterspells, you at least had to run creatures from other colors like Serra Angel or Tarmogoyf.

Now that we have cheap blue creatures, who needs other colors?

Who else agrees that blue should return to being the big bad draw-go control guy and be forced to use other color creatures for tempo decks?
I think that all of those cards are acceptable for one simple reason, every single card you mentioned except Vendilion Clique encourages you to play heavy instants and sorceries. If Snapcaster was an enchantment with any static ability in addition to Snapcaster's normal abilities, it would still have been overpowered. Talrand is actually better as a creature than an enchantment because he can at least be shocked or removed in many other ways. A 2/2 body is really a downside for him. Delver was a good idea because it encourages you to play less creatures. Nobody would have expected Delver to be a top deck in standard.
Nononono, it's not okay. Blue already likes to play heavy instants and sorceries. So you're rewarding them for doing what they do best? WTF.
Nononono, it's not okay. Blue already likes to play heavy instants and sorceries. So you're rewarding them for doing what they do best? WTF.

Uh, yeah, that's how the game works? It's no different from how the colour that's best at swarming with guys gets Glorious Anthem and the colour with burn spells gets Furnace of Rath.
blah blah metal lyrics
That's not even close to the same. That's rewarding burn with better burn, this is rewarding good instants and sorceries with good creatures? That's not right.
That's not even close to the same. That's rewarding burn with better burn, this is rewarding good instants and sorceries with good creatures? That's not right.


Sooo... Red shouldn't get bloodthirst?

or Wee Dragonauts?

Colors get cards in all types. And their best cards are always going to focus on their strengths.
"I think me going Bang bang bang I win is pretty intuitive" Mafia Record: Wouldn't you like to know? 2011 Mafia Awards - Mastermind of the Year
mymoment
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57817638 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
88318561 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
Moriok Rigger does absolutely nothing to boost other riggers. You are incorrect.
Moriok Rigger is not a Rigger in print. Only in Errata WHAT NOW! (yes, I did put that phrase in for that exact reason)
Congratulations, they have activated your trap card!
Blue doesnt get good creatures, red does. :I
Red gets the worst creatures right after blue. :/

I think creatures are integral to the game (if an entire color is discouraged to use creatures, you remove interesting things like combat), so it's okay if any color gets good creatures that work with what they do. Although "good" doesn't necessarily mean undercosted for its size. I think that blue is suited best for its regular bodies ( 2/1, etc.) with abilities that it gets for almost-free (like flying, unblockability, hexproof, etc.).
Nononono, it's not okay. Blue already likes to play heavy instants and sorceries. So you're rewarding them for doing what they do best? WTF.



You are missing the point.

Snapcaster would be overpowered no matter what it was. With no abilities, it would be top of the curve if it only costed :U: to play. Let's look at enchantments for :U: now to see how well they would play as snapcasters.

Memory Field
Enchantment
Flash
When Memory field enters the battlefield, target instant or sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn. The flashback cost is equal to its mana cost.
Your opponents play with their hands revealed.

I don't feel like naming this
Enchantment
Flash
When ~ enters the battlefield, target instant or sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn. The flashback cost is equal to its mana cost.
:U:: Tap target creature without flying.
 

Do either of those seem more balanced than the original? They don't to me. Snapcaster is powerful because they put a slightly weaker call to mind on the body of an elite vanguard and decided that instead of adding the costs together, they would just average them out and give it flash too. It's the ability itself that's powerful and making it any other type of permanent wouldn't have helped. It's a powerful 1-drop bumped up to a 2-drop to give it the ability of Call to mind and flash.

Talrand is a perfect blue creature. His power and toughness are pretty low for his casting cost and his ability encourages you to play instants and sorceries. As I said before, if he was an enchantment instead, he would have been even more difficult to remove and an even bigger threat.

Delver was never expected to be that strong, it was an exception, not the rule.
I said it was overpowered. I don't usually read past the first couple sentences, not enough attention span. Sorry for the confusion.
I just think they should take more care, and not underestimate good blue creatures again and again. They had Vapor Snag and Mana Leak already. They knew they were making Snapcaster Mage good (and that cards that have to be designed to be good are already problematic). There was absolutely no need to push Delver from the 2/2 it was in Design, or Geist of Saint Traft (even if it's also white). In fact, if they get a blue one-drop that hits for more than Merfolk of the Pearl Trident, they should test it a lot. And I mean a lot, because these weird cards that seem fun at first backfire many times.

Other than that, those creatures are awesome design-wise. They give blue creatures a good angle. They need more instant and sorceries (and cantrips), and so play less creatures, and so play tempo-y. And it's great that cards like Thought Scour find a home.

Even though Vendilion Clique is also pushed, it plays very blue-y. And it's fragile, so I'm okay. 
I really don't understand complaints about the Geist. Vapor Snag is really the only card propping it up (yes, Restoration Angel also to a certain extent. but it a much more expensive and limited fashion). its a legendary bear that needs to attack to be useful, that is a pretty big drawback. 
"I think me going Bang bang bang I win is pretty intuitive" Mafia Record: Wouldn't you like to know? 2011 Mafia Awards - Mastermind of the Year
mymoment
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57817638 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
88318561 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
Moriok Rigger does absolutely nothing to boost other riggers. You are incorrect.
Moriok Rigger is not a Rigger in print. Only in Errata WHAT NOW! (yes, I did put that phrase in for that exact reason)
Congratulations, they have activated your trap card!
It's very easy to keep blockers away. Be it with Vapor Snag or Mana Leak. You could even play Feeling of Dread and it wouldn't be that bad because the Geist is difficult to remove anyway.

Sure, Silvercoat Lion kills it, but you still spend a card and take 4 damage. If your opponent plays any innocent spell, it's at least 10. That's very debilitating.
I actually don't think there was ever a policy that blue only gets "bad" creatures. Blue still isn't meant to have strong creatures, meaning that their creatures aren't ever going to have power or toughness greater than their CMC (Delver is an exception) and will rarely have both power and toughness equal to their CMC. Talrand meets this criteria perfectly by being a 2/2 for 4. Even Snapcaster is only a 2/1. As I said before, Snapcaster is overpowered because of the ability, not the body. Vendilion Clique also fits this criteria as only one of it's combat stats is equal to the mana cost with neither being above it and the other being 2 below the CMC.
I actually don't think there was ever a policy that blue only gets "bad" creatures. Blue still isn't meant to have strong creatures, meaning that their creatures aren't ever going to have power or toughness greater than their CMC (Delver is an exception) and will rarely have both power and toughness equal to their CMC. Talrand meets this criteria perfectly by being a 2/2 for 4. Even Snapcaster is only a 2/1. As I said before, Snapcaster is overpowered because of the ability, not the body. Vendilion Clique also fits this criteria as only one of it's combat stats is equal to the mana cost with neither being above it and the other being 2 below the CMC.


I knew Goliath Sphinx was just broken. Compare it to the already overpowered Mahamoti Djinn.

(I do dislike Conundrum Sphinx's body, though.)
Ha, well. Conundrum Sphinx is an example of a truly absurd trend. If you look at all the single-colour 4-mana 4-power flyers ever printed with no drawback at all, they've all been printed in the past 3 years. Two of them are in white and get the discount for being mythic: Indomitable Archangel[/C], [c]Sublime Archangel.

And two of them are blue and only rare rather than mythic: Argent Sphinx and Conundrum Sphinx.
Oh, and there's one in red: Firewing Phoenix. That's rare too.

So how come white (the second-best creature colour and the second-best flying colour) has to go up to mythic  to get 4 power in flying for 4 mana, while blue (the worst creature colour) and red (the second-worst creature colour and second-worst flying colour) get it at rare?
In general, NWO gives blue one big guy for a descent price, because otherwise, it can't seem to get a dude bigger than 2... So blue gets a common 4/4 for limited and a rare guy that can pretend to beat face at rare.

White on the other hand is the colour of armies.  It's hard for white to outright reach the number four without paying more on a creature, outside of */* creatures. (similar to how red can't reach the number for without paying more on instants/sorceries, outside of X).
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IMO, Blue shoudl rarely (if ever) get creatures with a good stats to cost ratio.  If other colors get Bears, Blue gets Grey Ogres.  There are the following exceptions...

1) Abilities, not stats: If a creature is powerful not because it's good in combat, but because it has nice abilities, it doesn't get an extra mana charge "for being blue".
2) Flying: While the basic stats still need to be accounted for, Blue shouldn't pay as much for flying past that as other colors.  The end result of this ought to be that blue flyers cost about the same as white flyers with similar stats, because blue paid more for the base and less for the wings.
3) Jumping through Hoops: Black is the color of "Power at a Price" -- phenomenal strength mitigated by nasty drawbacks.  Blue, on the other hand, is "Power for the Clever".  That is, you can get a good value, if you're willing to apply extra work.  Delver is probably a good example, if one that really pushes the envelope of what's acceptable versus what's broken.  On it's own, kinda lame.  With enough effort put into it on the deck construction and play level, very strong.

To answer how I think about a number of cards brought up on this thread:
Delver: OK.  Probably could have stood to be a 2/2 after transform and/or 0/1 before.  It works from a design perspective, but knowing what we know now it might have stood a round with the nerf bat.
Snapcaster: Reduced to 1/1 and/or (probably or) increased to 3 cost
Argent Sphinx and Conundrum Sphinx: Increased to 6 mana -- about what you'd expect blue to pay for a 4/4 with no drawback
Talrand: Fine.  Seriously, he's a 2/2 legend with no relevant defenses ("I'm playing blue" doesn't count.  Shroud/hexproof, Regeneration, some ability to self bounce... no?) for 4 mana.  He's not providing efficent stats to cost without major effort.

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Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

So how come white (the second-best creature colour and the second-best flying colour) has to go up to mythic  to get 4 power in flying for 4 mana, while blue (the worst creature colour) and red (the second-worst creature colour and second-worst flying colour) get it at rare?

Because white focuses on large groups of small creatures and doesn't tend to do single large creatures very well; blue has no such limitations. White's efficient large creatures are already few and far between--small wonder it has so few efficient large creatures that also have flying.

In general, NWO gives blue one big guy for a descent price[...]

NWO deals with card complexity at common--it has nothing to do with size, cost, or card allotment among the colors.

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I honestly don't see the issue with :U: getting good weenies. Many of the grievances created in recent history weren't a matter of :U: cards being too good, but other cards being dumbed down and incapable of manipulating the stack. Often times a good :U: deck just needs to add duals and a bunch of efficient removal to unravel an entire format because there isn't much else many other decks can do about it, and until R&D is comfortable creating complex utilities in other colors, or there isn't an outlandishly powerful non-:U: deck for some short period of time, then this is likely a problem that will never be solved.
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I really don't understand complaints about the Geist. Vapor Snag is really the only card propping it up (yes, Restoration Angel also to a certain extent. but it a much more expensive and limited fashion). its a legendary bear that needs to attack to be useful, that is a pretty big drawback. 


It's a 2/2 hexproof for 3 that attacks for 6 on an empty board. That is insane. He presents a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for your opponent. If they are lucky enough to have a blocker when he attacks, they get to trade a creature for yours while still taking 4 damage. And there are so many ways you can get it through, from equipment to restoration angel to vapor snag to even weirder choices like spectral flight that his only real drawback is being legendary. He attacks for far too much on his own for a creature that is the weenie colour + the weakest creature color.

Also I just realized you will be able to populate the angel token when RTR comes out. Will that be relevant? I hope not...

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192884403 wrote:
surely one can't say complex conditional passive language is bad grammar ?
Hopefully you are playing something big enough to block a 2/2 on turn 3. 3 toughness really isn't that huge a barrier. I understand that it doesn't always work out that way, but the card has some fairly significant drawbacks built in, and with Vapor Snag rotating, I think you will see its effectiveness drop somewhat.
"I think me going Bang bang bang I win is pretty intuitive" Mafia Record: Wouldn't you like to know? 2011 Mafia Awards - Mastermind of the Year
mymoment
\
57817638 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
88318561 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
Moriok Rigger does absolutely nothing to boost other riggers. You are incorrect.
Moriok Rigger is not a Rigger in print. Only in Errata WHAT NOW! (yes, I did put that phrase in for that exact reason)
Congratulations, they have activated your trap card!
The issue isn't blocking a 2/2.  The problem is blocking a 2/2 and an evasive 4/4 on turn four, while probably losing some of your board that same turn. CMC for 6 damage is something red can't even really do outside of Ball Lightning...  Then in white and blue, making him unblockable or nearly that is easier than it is in almost any other colour.  I'm not somebody who hates Traft, nor do I ever fear him... but he's more aggressive than ever deserves for CMC .
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The issue isn't blocking a 2/2.  The problem is blocking a 2/2 and an evasive 4/4 on turn four, while probably losing some of your board that same turn. CMC for 6 damage is something red can't even really do outside of Ball Lightning...  Then in white and blue, making him unblockable or nearly that is easier than it is in almost any other colour.  I'm not somebody who hates Traft, nor do I ever fear him... but he's more aggressive than ever deserves for CMC .



Didn't red get a 3 CMC that could deal 5 damage to a creature or player as a morbid trigger in Innistrad? That was a mono-colored spell that had the versatility of being able to kill creatures as well, the Geist is a multi-color creature that does nothing for an entire turn and can be killed by a blocking 2/1, or a 2/3 if you don't want to lose card advantage. And what colors do you think should be aggressive if not white? It's the weenie color. Adding a second color should allow it to be even more powerful, even if it's the noncreature color.
What color and cost should this creature have?

CARDNAME
Legendary Creature - CREATURE TYPES
Hexproof, Trample
6/2


57193048 wrote:
srs rls mgr is srs
57125208 wrote:
"If you're having defense problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 soldiers but they're just 1/1."
What color and cost should this creature have?

CARDNAME
Legendary Creature - CREATURE TYPES
Hexproof, Trample
6/2





I personally would go with :R::G: to keep it in color. I wouldn't actually consider it a lot better than Loxodon Smiter (which is insanely good, don't get me wrong). Geist has a drawback (being legendary), unlike your card it can be blocked by a 2/3 with no loss of card advantage to the blocker, and the angel could be blocked by a spirit token to prevent life loss altogether.
A 6/2 should have a CMC of 5, 4 if it's legendary.  Three is WAAAY too small.  Ball Lightning and Brimstone Volly ONLY happen because they last for a turn.  Look at Lava Axe.  Hardly anybody past their first year in Magic plays Lava Axe because it's fair.  Brimstone Volly has a threshold that is actually kinda' hard to reach advantageously.  Most people purposely throw their own things under the bus to make use of its morbid trigger.  That means either you have to have some sort of vampire, or cast a spell at a creature to make five damage for three count... and at that point you're spending more than three mana for five damage, so you're not too far off of Lava Axe, you just hurt your own board position.

Ball Lightning is okay, because it can be blocked, and first strike neuters him.  Take a closer look at Ball Lightning and CARDNAME.

Ball Lightning costs :Rm::Rm::Rm:, which is much harder to cast than :Rm::Gm:.  :Rm::Rm::Gm:, or :Rm::Gm::Gm: would be okay, but :Rm::Gm: is just too easy to do.  Then you swap Haste for Hexproof... in general you have an ability that works for one turn, verses an ability that works every turn.  So Hexproof is probably better.  Another point of toughness (which matters). Just look at Armory Guard... a 2/5 for CMC 4. He also has the chance to have vigilance, if you control a gate.  Removing that ability, you would still only get him for CMC 4.  Giving him 1 power or 0 is the only way to give him a CMC of 3.  Toughness counts.
Then CARDNAME is missing the 'sac at the end of turn' text, which makes it even better than Ball Lightning... so costing this vastly better card than Ball Lightning easier is crazy.  And that's what they did.  It's crazy how much better Giest is than Ball Lightning, and Ball is still a freakishly good card!
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Armory Guard is a bad card and could very easily be 3 CMC without a nerf and still may not even be playable. Just look how low the rating is on Loxodon Wayfarer and Sporecap Spider.

Ball Lightning is almost guaranteed to deal damage and comes out of nowhere. Geist gives your opponent time to prepare and the angel can be chump-blocked by a spirit token or another flier to prevent any damage at all. Another difference is that the "6/2 trampler with hexproof" would be able to block to kill a titan or another creature, where the Geists power is greatly reduced when blocking. It's power creep, I won't argue with that. But it's not overpowered at all as there are several answers to it.
Eh, it's far too easy to oversimplify Geist of Saint Traft. But it is interestingly enough the most recent time it seems they''ve tried to make a creature far better than it should have been (most creature"mistakes" are honest mistakes, or unintentionally awesome a'la Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf. Most cards have a "powerful if..." clause attached to them, and require some amount of effort or sacrifice (even Lotleth Troll, who is Psychotog 2.0) Geist is particularly weird because WotC "wanted to stop making cards arbitrarily and unconditionally good" with Zendikar because of creatures like Goblin Guide, Lotus Cobra and Vengevine not having "powerful if..." situations, but instead just having more utility than they should have.
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Blue doesnt get good creatures, red does. :I



It's supposeed to go

white/green
black
red
blue

But it's really hard to see that when blue can just Spreading Seas/Master of the Pearl Trident.

For the record, reducing Snappy to 1/1 wouldn't fix him. Just put him at .
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Blue doesnt get good creatures, red does. :I



It's supposeed to go

white/green
black
red
blue

But it's really hard to see that when blue can just Spreading Seas/Master of the Pearl Trident.

For the record, reducing Snappy to 1/1 wouldn't fix him. Just put him at .


Every color gets good creatres, because creatures are so fundamental to the game, the question is in what way or what situations they are good.
"I think me going Bang bang bang I win is pretty intuitive" Mafia Record: Wouldn't you like to know? 2011 Mafia Awards - Mastermind of the Year
mymoment
\
57817638 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
88318561 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
Moriok Rigger does absolutely nothing to boost other riggers. You are incorrect.
Moriok Rigger is not a Rigger in print. Only in Errata WHAT NOW! (yes, I did put that phrase in for that exact reason)
Congratulations, they have activated your trap card!
True, but it just feels weird that blue can spam with unblockable guys.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
With no burn and mill being awful, blue needs some creatures. Blue's weakness (at least in standard) is the lack of variety. People end up sideboarding against Snapcaster, Invisible Stalker, and Delver because those are the only playable blue creatures.
I do, however, agree that snapcaster should more or maybe be 0/1. Stalker, Delver, and Talrand are needed to give mono-blue a win condition. 
To be fair, those creatures are still broken. Obviously blue needs creatures, but should blue have token generators in a cycle where the actual token colors don't? (Cycles are odd: You're required to unify them in some way. This is why Painsmith and Lifesmith exist. But in what makes each card unique, bleed is less tolerable than usual.)
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
To be fair, those creatures are still broken. Obviously blue needs creatures, but should blue have token generators in a cycle where the actual token colors don't? (Cycles are odd: You're required to unify them in some way. This is why Painsmith and Lifesmith exist. But in what makes each card unique, bleed is less tolerable than usual.)



I don't really see what's wrong with it since all colors get tokens and Talrand makes them in a very "blue" way. The only rule for blue tokens is that it doesn't get anything more powerful than a 2/2 that it doesn't have to sacrifice. You also have to think of what color should get that ability if not blue. Red and green don't get fliers that much, and black and white don't usually interact with instants and sorceries. The only thing actually connecting the cycle was that they were mono-colored legends anyway.
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