[Color Pie] What Green Needs

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Green needs one thing above all - better defensive spells.

Right now green is mostly land tutor, creature tutor, big dumb unplayable creatures, a few good midrange and aggro creatures, pump spells, and artifact/enchantment destruction.

Green should get the majority of hexproof cards. It is (supposedly) the best creature color, and yet it has only gotten a couple playable hexproof guys.

Furthermore, instead of giving green bad life gain spells, give it hexproof for players. Green is the weakest color against combo decks, and the best way to help it is to give it something it already sort of has.

Take this card for example:

Thicket Covering 1G
Instant
You gain hexproof until end of turn.
Draw a card

That's the kind of card green needs. I understand that green can protect its own creatures this way, but how is it that you as a planeswalker cannot even protect yourself with green magic?

Ok, so we get Fog, which blocks all creature damage for the turn, but green is still cold to spell-based win conditions like Tendrils of Agony and Banefire. Giving green prevention-based spells would be wonderful.

Also, green is the enemy of Black and Blue, two very instant-based colors. Give green better instant hate.

Wisened Elk 1GG
Creature - Elk
Wisened Elk can't be countered.
Instant spells cost 2 more to cast.
3/3

Lastly, take a look at Guttural Response. It's hybrid, which means wizards thinks both red and green should have the ability. If so, why haven't they gotten much of it? I want this card:

Natural Response GG
Instant
Counter target noncreature spell

Green is all about creatures, right? I think a flavorful counterspell would make a lot of sense. The biggest thing that needs to be done to the color pie in order to impact eternal formats is to take stack-based monopoly away from blue. Once all 5 colors begin to have ways to interact with instants and sorceries, blue will no longer be the default control color.

Thank you
Green should not get counters. There is no precedence mechanically and very little flavorful reasons. If any other color gets counter spells, it should be white. Maybe black. Gutteral Response was a color hoser. Red and green are the 2 colors that should have counters the least.
I do like more hexproof for green. And competitive hexproof too, a 4/4 for with hexproof would be a godsend.

I agree with infinight here, green shouldn't get counters. Green should be more focused on being able to play the big creatures with devastating effects. Creatures that would be unplayable in any other color, but they're fair game in green.

Green should also have the most tools to deal with control than any other color. Hexproof is one thing, I'd also like to see more uncounterable. Regeneration is also good, it's been moving towards black for awhile and green should take it back.

Basically green should be stubborn and seemingly inexorable, and win with massive and devastating creatures. Green should have a shaky start though, and that's when other colors should be able to take advantage of the weakness.
It's a really minor thing, but green feels more suited to get lifelink than white.
It's a really minor thing, but green feels more suited to get lifelink than white.

I'd argue that Black is the best color for lifegain. It's all about stealing from the opponent and adding to you.

The problem with green is that it is typically a weaker version of white, which has much better creatures than green usually does, stealing its thunder.

If green doesn't get counterspells, it should at least get ways to defend against spells. I'd just like to see more fogs and more player protection effects.
Green needs removal that isn't fight. Removal that can be removed is not right.
Green needs removal that isn't fight. Removal that can be removed is not right.


"Removal that can be removed" sounds more like Oblivion Ring. Green doesn't get that. It gets regular removal, it just needs you to have a creature.
I'm saying fight sucks and isn't fair to green. Fight is removal that is weak to other removal. Green needs to not suck.
I'm saying fight sucks and isn't fair to green. Fight is removal that is weak to other removal. Green needs to not suck.



It's actually only weak to removal if your creatures are. Hexproof creatures don't have anything to worry about. Also, fighting is cheaper than other types of removal, so having a creature in the creature color really isn't that bad of a drawback. If you control a 6/6, you can destroy a 5/5 for one mana with Prey Upon. It's like a Fling that can't target players where your creature doesn't have to die. I just wish they would make a creature that fights other creatures as an ETB effect.
They'll get to it eventually, I'm sure. It's too obvious a design space to miss.

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I am against Hexproof for the most part since it removes interaction, but good fight is possible. I'll still hate it though.
I find Hexproof frustrating in play, but philosophically it's extremely Green, yeah. And instant-speed Hexproof is clearly the proper way to do Green counterspells.
I'm saying fight sucks and isn't fair to green. Fight is removal that is weak to other removal. Green needs to not suck.


Did you not play Innistrad limited? Prey Upon was like the MVP of the set.

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

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57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
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I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
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+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
I'm saying fight sucks and isn't fair to green. Fight is removal that is weak to other removal. Green needs to not suck.


Did you not play Innistrad limited? Prey Upon was like the MVP of the set.



It's pretty much only good in limited because it's not an instant.
IIRC, wasn't Ulvenwald Tracker seeing play for a while?

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I just wish they would make a creature that fights other creatures as an ETB effect.

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I think that I agree with Zammm... If I understand what he said correctly (about getting to it eventually), Hexproof and fight are still young.  Many other mechanics have had 10+ years to get cards.  Hexproof is on what? Year two of being a thing.  I'm not talking about Troll Ascetic, but rather the word Hexproof being a word.  Give them a year or three and that 4/4 hexproof troll for :Gm: will be replacing Cudgle Troll for a decade to come.

As for fight and counterspells, I think that green should be the midrange colour with the widest spectrum of removal, while at the same time, having the worst removal (because it's either conditional, or expensive).  Cards like...
Fog
Rust, Voidslime, Guttural Response,
NaturalizeBramblecrush,
Prey Upon, Beast Within,
Withstand DeathRanger's Guile and Autumn's Veil all strike me as good green removal.  Heck, I adore the green Doomblade.  On the other hand, I do not agree with Plummet at all.  Green is free to hate flying, but it should do so like red, with numbers of damage, like Leaf Arrow, Windstorm, Squall and Squall Line.
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I think that I agree with Zammm... If I understand what he said correctly (about getting to it eventually), Hexproof and fight are still young.  Many other mechanics have had 10+ years to get cards.  Hexproof is on what? Year two of being a thing.  I'm not talking about Troll Ascetic, but rather the word Hexproof being a word.  Give them a year or three and that 4/4 hexproof troll for :Gm: will be replacing Cudgle Troll for a decade to come.

As for fight and counterspells, I think that green should be the midrange colour with the widest spectrum of removal, while at the same time, having the worst removal (because it's either conditional, or expensive).  Cards like...
Fog
Rust, Voidslime, Guttural Response,
NaturalizeBramblecrush,
Prey Upon, Beast Within,
Withstand DeathRanger's Guile and Autumn's Veil all strike me as good green removal.  Heck, I adore the green Doomblade.  On the other hand, I do not agree with Plummet at all.  Green is free to hate flying, but it should do so like red, with numbers of damage, like Leaf Arrow, Windstorm, Squall and Squall Line.



I like this for the most part. I too adore the green Doomblade.

I think that green should have the most versatile removal, but also the most expensive removal. I don't really like conditional removal in green, that seems more like a black thing (Doomblade, Victim of Night, etc., etc.). The expensive part also makes sense for green because of the heavy ramp focus in green.

Also, you forgot the most fun in flying hate: Silklash Spider. Which of course, passes your damage test.
That's a really wierd thing about Magic and burn.  Typically most colours get to do everything, just a little differently... Blue draws/replaces cards.  Black bleeds to draw cards.  Green draws creatures.  Red loots.  White pretends to draw cards.  Green gets big stompy creatures.  White gets a bajillion little creatures.  Red gets fast psudo-evasive creatures.  Black gets deadly psudo-evasive creatures.  Blue gets tiny evasive creatures.  Blue counters spells.  Black gets rid of them before they are ever able to be cast.  White stops the opponent from being able to cast them.  Green (and blue/white to a lesser degree) makes your stuff an illigal target.  Red kinda' gets the counter shaft.

Then you look at noncombat damage... You have red.  They have killed it in black and are killing it in green.  You're free to make the arguement over life loss, but it's still hardly as good as burn.  Blue lost its Psionics and Tims a long time ago, and now the only colour that you can find it regularly in, other than red is white.  However, white only does it by redirecting damage (normally when coupled with red), or damage something durring combat... So noncombat damage in white vs. non-red still only happens durring combat.  This makes a wierd direct damage void, in my opinion.  I feel that green should get point by point/noncombat damage, even if not as good as red.  Cards like Windstorm, Leaf ArrowFemeraf Archers and Silklash Spider are okay.  This makes for a better gradiant of damage from red at the top, to green, black, white and lastly blue. (Feel free to argue about the order of black and white, I can see either taking third place).  Green needs to "feel" closer to red than it does.
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Fight is non-combat damage. ;D

I'm not trying to be a smartass, I really think that better and more aggressive use of fight will do wonders for green in limited and constructed.

Edit: Furthermore, I feel that people's complaining about green's lack of good removal is misguided. Green shouldn't have ideal removal because each color needs to have things that its bad at. That's a fundamental cornerstone of the game. If every color can do everything, the boundaries cease to have meaning. Fight is fine. Flashy deathtouch guys are fine. Hating on flying dudes is fine.

Green getting a doom blade or a lightning bolt is stupid.



My personal grievance with green is that it so rarely has "the best" creature. I realize that green and white have come to share the identity as "the creature color" but frequently white not only gets better swarm capabilities than green, but better fatties as well. I feel that, fundamentally speaking, green should always have, if not the best, then one of the best fatties at any given time in standard. Other decks should want to splash for green for their game ending fatty boom booms.     
Honestly, what :G: needs is more interaction with Permanents, and less interaction with Creatures. It's kind of dumb that I can't kill people with my lands or enchantments in a :G: deck without making them into a creature first. I'm all for beasts, and elves and what have you, but in the end creatures like Jugan, the Rising Star, Xantid Swarm and Birds of Paradise shouldn't be outliers- and non-creature centric strategies should not be the outliers for a pile of :G: cards.
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I'd say the best colors in Magic's history are:
In AVR limited and were the best colors.
In M13 limited , , and are probably the best colors.
isn't getting shafted, it generally gets solid bodies and tricks. I'd worry about more, I would say worry about to, but Wizards has been really kind to in recent years.
I agree with thoctar 100%

Whoever suggested ETB fight should be kissed. It's brilliant, especially attached to uncounterable.

Green should have an over abundance of amazing creatures that make everyone else look like durdling buffoons. I love the idea of more flash creatures (green mana surging to force it's gnarly critters into play). I love hexproof, but only in moderation, as it limits interaction too much. DEFINETLY more uncounterable doods, that should be green's thing. To me, the ultimate green critter would be an obstinate baloth having a child with thrun, the last troll. Or a ambush viper + alpha brawl on a stick.

Essentially green should have the most ridiculous critters if it cannot interact with the opponent like other slices can. Though I think beast within is a GORGEOUS idea and we need more of that!
Fight is non-combat damage. ;D

I'm not trying to be a smartass

I understand and I loled.
Edit: Furthermore, I feel that people's complaining about green's lack of good removal is misguided. Green shouldn't have ideal removal because each color needs to have things that its bad at. That's a fundamental cornerstone of the game. If every color can do everything, the boundaries cease to have meaning. Fight is fine. Flashy deathtouch guys are fine. Hating on flying dudes is fine.

Agreed.
My personal grievance with green is that it so rarely has "the best" creature. I realize that green and white have come to share the identity as "the creature color" but frequently white not only gets better swarm capabilities than green, but better fatties as well. I feel that, fundamentally speaking, green should always have, if not the best, then one of the best fatties at any given time in standard. Other decks should want to splash for green for their game ending fatty boom booms.

Agreed, again.  But if I remember, the last time that they wanted green to have the best creature in a format (I've heard this, but can not confirm), we got Tarmagoyf.

Oh man, I can see Obstinate Troll now... But for real... Green should have THE BEST beefy creatures that are the top of the food chain for a reason.
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Removal is a fundamental thing for decks to function. So green either needs some better beaters, or some more fight or w/e. Has there ever been a top tier deck that was mono green? Seems like every color but green has had one. Elves doesn't count because those decks aren't around all the time. Maybe there has been but I dunno, I just like to complain.
But if I remember, the last time that they wanted green to have the best creature in a format (I've heard this, but can not confirm), we got Tarmagoyf.

No, Tarmie was an accident.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

So the next question is why DOESN'T green always have the best critters? I mean hexproof, uncounterable, regenerate, if discard, put on field instead, indestructible, trample, all should be common words on green cards. High power to cost ratios, evasive, and hard to deal with with spells. Green doesn't want to fight magic, it wants combat!! It wants to be in your face aggressive and roll over you. Now obviously u need drawbacks, aggressive power for cost should be not hexproof, but maybe regenerate instead. I think predator ooze is a great idea that just wasn't executed quite right. Same with thrun and baloth. Green needs to stomp, not with some 9 mana durdler, but good doods in the 1-4 slot, with excessiveness past 5
I think that the issue is that green doesn't have as much to work with as other colours, and they try to keep green from becoming complex.  Heck, the most complex green guy I know is Thrun, the Last Troll... What does his text box say? "He lives.  That's effing it.  Unless you are going to damn him, he's sticking around forever. Now take it." Really, that's not too complex.

A complaint I had rescently while trying to come up with a format named "Legion" was green had a very small number of legends that were cool that could make combat matter.  Some good combo legends, but green doesn't combo too well on its own.  Let's take a look at the mono-green legends for a moment.  Keep in mind, we're looking for top of the food chain, gonna' wreck everybody's face "Best creature".
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Scars
Ezuri, Renegade Leader -- Elf version of Kamahl, Fist of Krosa... Yawn.  He's nice turn two or turn three, but turn four or five is when he gets useful, and you're still likely to lose a lot of your 4/4 elves.  I'd like him a lot more if he weren't a 2/2.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast -- Combo legend.
*Thrun, the Last Troll -- And he killed his opponents.  Rocks fell on everybody's heads and they died... except for Thrun.  Thrun had a hard enough skull to survive everything. Blah blah, he works, blah.
*Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger -- Here's a legend to cheat into play.  If he is, he's a guy that we're looking for.  If he isn't, thae he's too slow. I reluctantly include him, because he doesn't suffer from cheating him into play.
Zendikar
*Omnath, Locus of Mana -- I like this guy. A lot.  He's almost everything green wants in a beater... You can store up mana for several turns to cast a big guy two turns later... he gets bigger with the mana you use in your first main phase and cast the second main phase.  He's just wonderful... and costed cheaply enough to not be insulted, if killed by Typhoid Fever.
Shadowmoor/Lorwyn
Rhys the Exiled -- I shouldn't include him for colour identity reasons, but he only has 2 toughness.  He'll die a turn or two after he drops, is nearlt impossible to regenerate in mono-green, makes his attack trigger weaker each time you regenerate him, and has the special job of "keeping you from dieing", not killing your opponent... In Lorwyn he's a good legend, but not the Apex Predator we're looking for.
Time Spiral
Baru, Fist of Krosa -- Cool Kamahl, Fist of Krosa attempt... but the odds of him giving you more than +2/+2 is pretty slim, and at that point, he's a trampling Craw Wurm.
*Jedit Ojanen of Efrava -- Here's a good one! This guy is what good green legends are made from... he's a little expensive, but green can handle it.  Then you don't need any creatures that you may have tapped to make him, in order to make him useful.
*Jolrael, Empress of Beasts -- Still good.  You'll lose a few land, but in green you'll still outnumber the enemy by a lot of creatures, many of which are probably pretty big.  Or else you use Jorael the other way and destroy all of your opponent's land.
Thelon of Havenwood -- Combo legend.  Really good, combo legend.
Verdeloth the Ancient -- He's good, but more of a combo legend then an aggro legend.  When he hits, either you won't have the mana to pay his kicker, or else it'll be too late.  He's good, but costing six for a 4 power creature, in green just isn't quiet devastating enough.  This guy suffers from cheating.  If you don't cheat him into play, he takes too long to cast and even longer to cast with the awesome kicker.  If you do cheat him into play, you'll lose out on his kicker, or else it'll still be too late to call him agressive.  He's better if cheated into play, but not as effective as he could be.
Mirrodin
Glissa Sunseeker -- Cool legend, but not one much for a fight. She was more the Graffdigger's Cage of Mirrodin.
Core Sets
Mirri, Cat Warrior -- Not a win condition, but not a bad creature. She won't hurt the opponent enough doing 3 damage, but she'll stick around forever.  I like her a lot, but she just isn't the fantastic green legend "best creature" that we're looking for.  Sorry, Mirri.
*Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer -- He'll be that huge beat stick that kills everything once he's out.  He isn't aggressivly enough costed to be "aggro"... otherwise he isn't big enough to be the Apex Predator we're looking for.  I don't feel right adding him, but he's a candidate.
Yeva, Nature's Herald -- She's good, but not exactly aggressive.
Kamigawa
Arashi, the Sky Asunder -- Cool Squall varrient... Not much as a win-con though.
Ayumi, the Last Visitor -- Nasty power, but she's never going to hit you.
Azusa, Lost but Seeking -- She's useless the turn after she comes out, unless your deck has at least 30 land.
Bounteous Kirin -- Because of is mana cost, this isn't going to win you anything. You're just going to win more.
Budoka Gardener -- Combo legend.
Dosan the Falling Leaf -- Control legend.
Iname, Life Aspect -- Not going to win you games, but good at keeping you from dieing.
Isao, Enlightened Bushi -- He's a descent 4 damage beater in combat, but otherwise, a legend who will only do 2 damage, and is meant to attack... really not that great.
Iwamori of the Open Fist -- Crap, outside of Kamigawa... abd even then, crap.
*Jugan, the Rising Star -- This guy is good for the same reason Thrun is good.  Even when he dies, he sticks around.  He's also got a good flying body.
*Kodama of the Center Tree -- Probably a good Kamigawa standard aggro creature (if a CMC of Five is considerable for aggro at the time), but now he's more of a combo legend.  Really, he'll probably be a 4/4 or a 5/5 the turn he drops and get about +1/+1 for each turn he isn't dead.  Not bad, but I don't feel right calling him an Aggro legend.  He's like Molimo.
*Kodama of the North Tree -- Here's a trample legend... He's just really boring.
Kodama of the South Tree -- Bad for the same reasons as Baru, Fist of Krosa.
Masumaro, First to Live -- Um... do I have to say it?
Myojin of Life's Web -- Really underwhelming.  Sure, if you cheat it into play, you have an 8/8... That's nor horribly exciting, though it is big... It's lack of evasion though makes it horribly susceptable to typhoid fever... The ultimate in power shouldn't be able to be killed by a chump, without at least getting SOME damage through.  Otherwise, he'll come into the game too late to be agressive... or you'll use up so many resources in casting him faster, you'll probably have an empty hand, if not an almost empty hand.
*Orochi Eggwatcher -- This is what Baru and Kodama of the South Tree want to be! It's a little slow to get going, but still good.  Considering when this comes down, you should have two or three creatures in play at the time, then more to come... She builds up pretty quick to flipping.
*Patron of the Orochi -- This one can be cast agressively, and does have a big enough body and big enough effect to fit. 
Reki, the History of Kamigawa -- Only in Kamigawa... He'll work well with Masumaro, First to Live, but not at all the alpha predator we're looking for.
Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro -- Good utility, but not a beater.
Sakiko, Mother of Summer -- She wants Omnath... Just sayin'.  She's not a beater, but works well in combo.
Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant -- Combo legend.
*Sekki, Season's Guide -- I don't want to include this one, but it will stick around forever, and doesn't get hurt by cheating him into play. He works well in combo, but an aggressive cheat works well too.
Seshiro the Anointed -- Not the beater that we're looking for, but that's not to say he's a bad card.  Better then Baru, in any case.
Shisato, Whispering Hunter -- Not the beater we're looking for, but definantly a good card.
Shizuko, Caller of Autumn -- No.
*Sosuke, Son of Seshiro -- I don't feel that he's as good as his sister, but dangerous. He and his intended brood will kill off everything your opponent has or kill the opponent.

I've counted 13 that are super beaters in modern... many of which are still too expensive to really be super beaters, or suffer when you cheat them into play.  Each other colour typically gets better, more interresting and more dangerous legends than green... Green should get better beefy legends. (Still, none of the 13 I've listed are worthy of being called "the best creature in standard" when they were played).
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... Whoa..that was both extensive and very insightful. You have lots if time and clearly have been thinking about this, lol.
I remember when I was really irritated at Silvos, Rogue Elemental being too strong. These days he'd be pretty ho-hum, comparable to a number of other 6-mana 8-power tramplers green gets. 

Primeval Titan was completely absurd as well. Admittedly his whole cycle was, so people didn't need to splash green because there was a nuts titan in whatever their colour was (plus Wurmcoil), but you could make a case for him being the best of the bunch. (Not the most aggressive of the bunch though. You could argue green should have got the Grave Titan effect, but ramp is as much a green effect as army swarm, perhaps more so.)
Yeah, for that post I actually went to Gatherer, looked up "Green" "Legendary" "Creature" and "Modern", then gave my response to every single creature for that list.  Man, I knew Kamigawa was about legends, but DARN MAN! That was a lot...

Anyway, I've been thinking about that for about a week now.  I came up with an MP format called Legion, and wanted to think of a bunch of cool legends to put in... but somehow green couldn't produce nearly as many green legends as the other colours.  After I got home, I looked up green legends and found out why... cool ones are few and far between... which doesn't make sense with green being the creature colour... besides, yesterday was my day off.

@Alextfish I hate to agree with you, but you're right.  Silvos, Rogue Elemental looks too good, but really he isn't, and other creatures have topped him in obsurdness since then.

What I don't hate, but do agree with you about it Primeval Titan being the best titan.  Such a good card... Too good even.  In my opinion, the order of greatness among titans is...
Primeval Titan, Sun Titan, Infurno Titan, Grave Titan and lastly Frost Titan.
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I really don't think :G: creatures need to be more complex, but :G: Instants, Sorcerys etc could certainly use it. RtR have been fairly generous with this, but only in the context of hybrid/gold cards which is disappointing because cards as complex and fascinating as Worldspine Wurm or Liege of the Tangle aren't given much context outside of a "ramp" deck, which frankly doesn't feel like the kind of deck I want to be playing with a threat that can break the boardstate so easily (more board interaction via removal, oppressive spells and value-mechanics.)
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I would start with what green doesn't need. Green doesn't need bouncing, creature removal, linear artifact love (counts because in Innistrad, green got the lion's share of humans), or inelegant cards that grant Lure to everything.

Green does need evasion, though.

Lastly, take a look at Guttural Response. It's hybrid, which means wizards thinks both red and green should have the ability. If so, why haven't they gotten much of it? I want this card:

Natural Response GG
Instant
Counter target noncreature spell





Green should not get counterspells. Ever. I can't think of a bleed I would hate more.

Green is all about creatures, right? I think a flavorful counterspell would make a lot of sense. The biggest thing that needs to be done to the color pie in order to impact eternal formats is to take stack-based monopoly away from blue. Once all 5 colors begin to have ways to interact with instants and sorceries, blue will no longer be the default control color.



Blue is the default control color? Hmm...My Legacy land destruction deck says otherwise. Not a hint of blue.

I am against Hexproof for the most part since it removes interaction, but good fight is possible. I'll still hate it though.



The only hexproof I hate is tribal hexproof or seriously WTF? See, the difference between Simic Sky Swallower and the same card with hexproof is Giant Growth.

I'd say the best colors in Magic's history are:
In AVR limited and were the best colors.
In M13 limited , , and are probably the best colors.
isn't getting shafted, it generally gets solid bodies and tricks. I'd worry about more, I would say worry about to, but Wizards has been really kind to in recent years.



Red is really the bad part; basically red has become "throw a goblin at him, zap him, keep doing it, but not too powerful". I'd say green is too, at least in limited. (No evasion, no removal.)

Green's biggest problem is that they're turning it into "the color that does everything, but not very well".
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Umm...thragtusk.

It's defining standard. Right now standard is play thrag and build around him or play messenger and build around him.

Green still needs more love IMO, but thrag is borderline silly. I'm surprised they didn't make him mythic, give him trample, and have his token buddy gain you 3 life.
I do appreciate that the face-punchiest creature in the format is green, its just such a shame thats such a boring card. I do think that its a step in the right direction that many decks are playing green in order to get access to beef.
Yeah, but I still feel that without evasion, it'll be in last place in limited most of the time. I mean, any color can generate card advantage, and green's not even the best at doing so. (Blue is, or, if you're lucky and development is asleep, black.) Most of the time, it's second to blue, which has the best evasion.

For removal, you'd go black, red, white, green (entirely because of fight), blue.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Yeah, but I still feel that without evasion, it'll be in last place in limited most of the time. I mean, any color can generate card advantage, and green's not even the best at doing so. (Blue is, or, if you're lucky and development is asleep, black.) Most of the time, it's second to blue, which has the best evasion.

For removal, you'd go black, red, white, green (entirely because of fight), blue.

(But as we've establish on other threads, bay_falconer's definition of "removal" is rather narrow and doesn't include counterspells, Paralyzing Grasp effects, or Arrest. If you want to include those other kinds of "answers" your order might be different.)
Arrest can be stopped. Counters are time-critical. And nobody uses "removal" to refer to counters.

Doesn't make me less right that green needs some sort of evasion for limited. (And that keyword that every color gets on anything where it's relevant and green has the privilege of getting at 1/1 doesn't count.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Doesn't make me less right that green needs some sort of evasion for limited. (And that keyword that every color gets on anything where it's relevant and green has the privilege of getting at 1/1 doesn't count.



What's up?
Doesn't make me less right that green needs some sort of evasion for limited. (And that keyword that every color gets on anything where it's relevant and green has the privilege of getting at 1/1 doesn't count.



What's up?





Oh wait, that wasn't a joke? Your answer really is a five-color keyword that appears on everything where it matters and green, unlike other colors, gets on 2/1s and 1/1s? Interesting.

I more want to get creature removal out of green, though. Plummet should die a slow painful death just for making monogreen Vindicate a possibility, and managing to be a cheap jank instant that doesn't become good if you add a cantrip and change nothing else.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
If you don't like it, it wasn't made for you.

There is nothing wrong with Plummet. Not every card needs to be maindeckable, silver bullets are a thing.