N00b question.

Ok, so I've been on these forums a while, and I consider myself to have a pretty good grasp on the rules. So it pains me to do this, but here's my noob question.

I've looked through the Background and How to Play pdfs over and over and I really can't find a solid answer to this. How do you handle attribute checks for subjects that used to be "Trained only"? Does everyone get a shot, no matter how obscure it is?

My example, I ran a game where a symbol of Ogremoch (Evil Prince of the Earth Plane) came up. Now in other editions this would require someone to have Knowlege: Planes or equivalent, because the knowlege is just out of reach for normal people. The Rogue with the Commoner background would have no real business knowing what the personal seal of Ogremoch is.

But I can't find anything that covers this. Do I just set a really high DC? But then that would hurt someone who DOES have the skill, since a +3 isn't really going to help you roll that DC 20 all that much. I'm hoping I'm not blind and there's just not a rule yet.
My two copper.
If no one has the skill, my group just rolls for the attribute, which in this case would be Wisdom. We did the same thing in 4th. Although in 4e it was rare for there to be no one in the group who doesn't have a specific skill, since there was like, 5.

If it's something you don't WANT your players to know, typically I, being the unfair bastard that I am, set the DC to be impossibly high to that the item can remain obscure.

 
They don't really come out and say anything about trained vs untrained skills yet, but I would treat it as a trained knowlege check. Planar, and Forbidden Lore are a skills that someone could take and if they don't have one or both, they probably wouldn't know what the symbol is. I would let someone with a tangentally realated knowlege skill take a crack at it, maybe with disadvantge, someone with Magical Lore could have run across it in their studdies of other topics perhaps.
They don't really come out and say anything about trained vs untrained skills yet, but I would treat it as a trained knowlege check. Planar, and Forbidden Lore are a skills that someone could take and if they don't have one or both, they probably wouldn't know what the symbol is. I would let someone with a tangentally realated knowlege skill take a crack at it, maybe with disadvantge, someone with Magical Lore could have run across it in their studdies of other topics perhaps.


The issue is that the whole point of the attribute check system is to let everyone have a crack at it. I feel like if I start requiring skills then that undermines the point of the change to skills.

However, your idea of doing with disadvantage seems pretty intriguing. Perhaps really hard things can be made at disadvantage without the skill and normally with...hmm... 
My two copper.
It should get better with higher levels, since they're implementing that system for improving skills.  If you have +5 to a skill from training, and you're probably also pretty smart if you're the kind of person to train in that, then a DC 20 isn't quite so out reach. 

Meanwhile, even if the idiot fighter and rogue have no reason to know something, that doesn't mean they couldn't know it.  After all, even the lowliest peasant can wound the mightiest warrior 5% of the time.

The metagame is not the game.

That would be a basic DC 13 moderate 16 hard or 19 verry hard. If it is a fairly easily remeamberd piece of information that some one could come accross I would go with the 13. If it is something that only some one that has specificly trained would have any chance at all of knowing 16. I would only go with a 19 if it was something so obscure that there was practicly no chance of any one knowing it at all, ever.

DC 22 is information that no one alive has.

Keep in mind they got rid of the massive numbers of skills so you will find most skills will not be in a player group. 
DMG pg 263 "No matter what a rule's source, a rule serves you, not the other way around."
I'd probably set the DC low for appropriate skills and move it higher for inapropriate skills. A DC 12 Religious Lore but a DC 16 or 20 Planar or Forbidden Lore.

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The issue is that the whole point of the attribute check system is to let everyone have a crack at it. I feel like if I start requiring skills then that undermines the point of the change to skills.



With most skills that's true, but I think certain lore skills should be treated like trained skills for the sake of keeping things from becoming too homogenious. Like you said, your commoner background rouge has no real reason to know the information. So if certain aspects of the open atribute skill system don't make sense, that's something that should be changed in the rules or ignored by you as the DM. WotC has said that they want the power to be in the hands of the DM, and that DM's should ignore or change any rules that they deem fit.
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