Magic is Turing Complete (the Turing Machine combo)

88 posts / 0 new
Last post
A year or two ago, I created a combo that proves Magic to be Turing complete. I put up a little website about it. Now it's doing the rounds of the internet (Reddit, BoingBoing, Kotaku, Metafilter, Slashdot, Mark Rosewater's Tumblr), so I thought I really ought to post it on the official Wizards boards.

The basic idea is to assemble a universal Turing machine out of Magic cards, so that a massive cascading sequence of triggered abilities occurs which simulates computation of a Turing machine, without needing any interaction from the players at all. It's mainly a load of ETB and LTB triggers, with the core being six copies of Teysa, Orzhov Scion (coexisting via Mirror Gallery), all extensively hacked with Artificial Evolution and Mind Bend.

The questions I had to answer include:

Q: How do you make a tape extending arbitrarily far in two directions with a "step left" and "step right" operation?
A: The tape to the left of the head is a series of Ally tokens, one 1 toughness away from dying, one 2 toughness away, etc; and the tape to the right is a similar series of Zombie tokens. To move left, we give all Allies +1/+1 and all Zombies -1/-1 (creature types adjusted as appropriate). This causes the smallest Ally to die, and a different ability triggers depending on what colour it was.

Q: How do you simulate the vital Turing machine concept of multiple states?
A: Phasing! All the Teysas are enchanted with Teferi's Curse or similar, and we arrange for the machine to cast Time and Tide whenever it needs to change state. 

Q: How the heck do you cast an instant as a triggered ability?
A: Chancellor of the Spires, with help from Aether Flash, Skirk Drill Sergeant, Wheel of Sun and Moon, False Dawn, Artificial Evolution, and lots of Engineered Plague. Simple, right?

Q: Can you really prevent players needing to do anything?
A: ...Almost. The key operation "Give all Allies +1/+1" is accomplished via Kazuul Warlord, which unfortunately has a "you may" in his rules text. So the cascade of triggered abilities isn't completely requiring no input from the players: one player has to effectively keep saying "yes" every time Kazuul Warlord or Chancellor of the Spires asks him "do you want to do this?" Another player has to similarly keep saying yes every time Skirk Drill Sergeant asks him the same question. But other than those "always say yes" operations, there's no interaction by the players required at all.

Q: Does this mean we can implement Magic Online inside another game of Magic?
A: Theoretically, yes. Cool But it might take quite a long time to get past the loading screen.

Full details at www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/

I actually thought about this a week ago. I was thinking "Magic cards interact with each other, perhaps you could build a computer out of a combination of them."


But I almost instantly abandoned the idea because I remembered that Magic was able to emulate sentience with a single card.

ALEXTFISH:

So what do you plan to use it for?

will parts of it be able to work better than a classical turing machine?

Or is it just something you wanted to figure out and did?
ALEXTFISH:

So what do you plan to use it for?

will parts of it be able to work better than a classical turing machine?

Or is it just something you wanted to figure out and did?


Ha! No, I don't think it's useful for anything much. Turing machines are only really useful as theoretical ideas anyway. It's incredibly cool for people who know about what Turing machines and Magic are.

In particular, I think it's the first demonstration of Turing completeness in the rules of any tabletop game. I don't think there are any other board games or card games whose rules accommodate the complexity required to make a Turing machine (and I've played a few hundred). 

I created it basically because someone asked me "Is Magic Turing complete?" I figured the answer must be yes, and started to try to prove it, and eventually (with help from a few friends) came up with that intricate combo. 

I suppose one possible way to use it is that there are certain questions about Magic that it proves, or proves to be unanswerable. For example, the question "is this an infinite loop?" is impossible to tell if the loop in question is calculating, say, whether every even integer greater than 2 can be expressed as the sum of two primes (or any similar unanswered problem). So we've proved there are some game states in Magic where it's impossible to tell whether the game is a draw or not. 

You are my favourite Magic player for doing this.

L1 Judge

So we've proved there are some game states in Magic where it's impossible to tell whether the game is a draw or not. 


oh, you.

 
120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
also if you let yourself use un cards, magical hacker on noxious ghoul lets you play the role of warlord without involving a "may". doesn't eliminate the player choices but reduces them.

or, in real magic world, put out a second noxious ghoul of each type and a goldnight commander. then you have each creature getting +1/+1 and each non-X creature getting -2/-2, resulting in each non-X creature getting -1/-1. with no choices made.

120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
also you can reduce them by finding a way to sacrifice/kill the chancellor and having mikaeus the unhallowed in play. (with a way to remove the counter, obviously, but that's trivial.) I don't know a way to remove the chancellor decision though, that one's tricky.

120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
Good stuff. The concept of the stack where each action resolves in sequence is the same as the stack an operating system's kernel works with, right?

Please check out my Blog:

Magic the Gathering Adventures Blog

http://mtgadventures.blogspot.com/

Please check out my YouTube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/rubiera22/featured

 

or, in real magic world, put out a second noxious ghoul of each type and a goldnight commander. then you have each creature getting +1/+1 and each non-X creature getting -2/-2, resulting in each non-X creature getting -1/-1. with no choices made.



I haven't looked at all this stuff, but isn't the potential to stack the triggers relevant in this scenario?

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

or, in real magic world, put out a second noxious ghoul of each type and a goldnight commander. then you have each creature getting +1/+1 and each non-X creature getting -2/-2, resulting in each non-X creature getting -1/-1. with no choices made.



I haven't looked at all this stuff, but isn't the potential to stack the triggers relevant in this scenario?


he uses multiple players to force the triggers to work in the necessary order, so no decisions need be made there. the only decision that needs to be made if you follow my suggestion is which order to stack the identical ghoul triggers, and, if that's too much decision, you can just add in a fifth player whose only purpose is to control two of the ghouls.

 
120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
or, in real magic world, put out a second noxious ghoul of each type and a goldnight commander. then you have each creature getting +1/+1 and each non-X creature getting -2/-2, resulting in each non-X creature getting -1/-1. with no choices made.

I haven't looked at all this stuff, but isn't the potential to stack the triggers relevant in this scenario?

At first I thought so - I thought this would lead to a player being forced to choose the order of multiple triggers to go on the stack, which is something I'm avoiding (it's the whole reason the game is a 4-player game not just a duel).

But I think this could actually work. When an Ally ETBs under A's control:

B's Noxious Ghoul for non-Allies triggers
C's Aether Flash triggers
D's Noxious Ghoul for non-Allies triggers 
A's Goldnight Commander triggers 
A's Goldnight Commander resolves, pumping everything
D's Ghoul resolves, neutralising the pump to the non-Allies
C's Aether Flash happens, shrinking the new Ally to the right size
B's Ghoul resolves, giving a net shrink to the non-Allies

Wow. Yes, that looks like it'd actually work. Fantastic suggestion, razorborne: I'll work through the details and see if it all works out, but I'm cautiously optimistic right now. Yay for Avacyn Restored bringing better cards for the Turing machine


We'd still need a way to avoid the "may" in Chancellor of the Spires's text though. So far my best ideas are Omen Machine or Wild Evocation, both of which would need me to move away from Noxious Ghouls and Goldnight Commanders to more permanent solutions, and then we're back to Kazuul Warlord with his "may" again.
We'd still need a way to avoid the "may" in Chancellor of the Spires's text though. So far my best ideas are Omen Machine or Wild Evocation, both of which would need me to move away from Noxious Ghouls and Goldnight Commanders to more permanent solutions, and then we're back to Kazuul Warlord with his "may" again.


this is, of course, the real problem. (also worth noting that at the very least players will have to actively pass priority every time, so player input is never actually fully removed.) the only ways I can find to cast instants without choices are spelltwine, which has exactly the same problem of needing to be played itself, and omen machine and wild evocation which, as you mention, require you to move away from temporary +1/+1 and -1/-1 options to counter-based methods. cathars' crusade can play commander in that case, but you still need a -1/-1 option. hmm. the best I can find is soul snuffers and something that blinks whenever you play a creature (I don't know that that device exists) but then neither piece is discriminating about creatures of a specific type, meaning neither piece can act as the reader of which type you want to buff. I think you're stuck with the chancellor for now.

120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
I opened your website and immediately thought, "There's no way I'm getting through all of this."
I opened the Wikipedia page for Turing Machine and immediately thought, "There's no way I'm going to understand this."

But something kept me going, and I now have a basic understanding of Turing Machines and I actually read your entire site! Thanks for introducing me to this whole concept, and amazing work figuring out how to do this in Magic. It's unfortunate that we now know it isn't actually universal (according to Wikipedia anyway), but the groundwork is still awesome, and it sounds like you've already made a truly universal one with your 18-color version.

Also, kudos to razoborne for making a contribution so quickly.

tl;dr I'm in love with automated logical processes and this is awesome.

Edit: Reading the Wikipedia article further, I see that the validity of Alex Smith's proof is in debate. Just wanted to ammend my above statement about the (2, 3) Turing machine not being universal.

IMAGE(http://steamsignature.com/status/default/76561197995631463.png) No longer a commander as of 7/29/13.

If you can't stay within the limits of four copies of any card (except ones which remove the restriction), it's pointless to construct the turning machine. You're just using Magic cards and their abilities to describe something you could more efficiently write out for yourself. Why even bother to use Mirror Gallery when you've already rejected a core-essential rule? What's the difference from writing out a Turning Machine based on random abilities and operations than using Magic cards if you're not going to stick to all the rules? It's no different. It removes the point of using Magic cards since the entire basis of it is that you're working within those limitations to construct a complex operation.

Maybe you're just trying to force it because you feel that there is some academic reward, but there isn't. People who have completed far greater works have yet failed to receive the grandeur you might be expecting to get for completing this. For example, take a look at John von Neumann, he's contributed so much and seemingly for nothing. The world barely recognizes him today, he isn't even a vaguely well known figure. Now take a look at Steve Wozniak, he was all the muscle behind Apple. He is the one who did all the hardest work (like the electrical engineering) and even most Apple users don't even know he exists. They (and everyone else) give all the credit to his right hand man, Steve Jobs. Not saying that Jobs doesn't deserve credit, and there are hidden elements to this (like Wozniak's hidden nature, preferring to stay under the radar), but it's another example of how people who contribute extreme measures get nothing out of it.

IMAGE(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/1/1c/Spr_4p_389.png)

he uses multiple players to force the triggers to work in the necessary order, so no decisions need be made there. the only decision that needs to be made if you follow my suggestion is which order to stack the identical ghoul triggers, and, if that's too much decision, you can just add in a fifth player whose only purpose is to control two of the ghouls.

 


Right. I'll see if I can bother understanding all this before I say anything more.

Also, as an advice, ignore the post above me unless you want him to derail your entire thread. Although it's not unlikely that you have bumped into him before, I haven't seen you around these parts.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

Fascinating.

IMAGE(http://i1.minus.com/jbcBXM4z66fMtK.jpg)

192884403 wrote:
surely one can't say complex conditional passive language is bad grammar ?
120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
If you can't stay within the limits of four copies of any card (except ones which remove the restriction), it's pointless to construct the turning machine. You're just using Magic cards and their abilities to describe something you could more efficiently write out for yourself. Why even bother to use Mirror Gallery when you've already rejected a core-essential rule? What's the difference from writing out a Turning Machine based on random abilities and operations than using Magic cards if you're not going to stick to all the rules? It's no different. It removes the point of using Magic cards since the entire basis of it is that you're working within those limitations to construct a complex operation.

Maybe you're just trying to force it because you feel that there is some academic reward, but there isn't. People who have completed far greater works have yet failed to receive the grandeur you might be expecting to get for completing this. For example, take a look at John von Neumann, he's contributed so much and seemingly for nothing. The world barely recognizes him today, he isn't even a vaguely well known figure. Now take a look at Steve Wozniak, he was all the muscle behind Apple. He is the one who did all the hardest work (like the electrical engineering) and even most Apple users don't even know he exists. They (and everyone else) give all the credit to his right hand man, Steve Jobs. Not saying that Jobs doesn't deserve credit, and there are hidden elements to this (like Wozniak's hidden nature, preferring to stay under the radar), but it's another example of how people who contribute extreme measures get nothing out of it.


I think you are both missing the point and ascribing motivations that are not present.

Magic and Magic Online Volunteer Community Lead.

I'm trying to make my official VCL posts in purple.

You posted saying my thread was moved/locked but nothing happened.


Show
Unfortunately, VCLs do not currently have the tools necessary to take moderation actions directly. VCLs submit their actions to ORCs, who then actually perform the action. This processing can take between a few minutes and several hours, depending on how busy/attentive the ORCs are.

If you see something that needs VCL attention, please use this thread to make a request and a VCL will look at it as soon as possible. CoC violations should be reported to Customer Service using the "report post" button. Please do not disrupt the thread by making requests of either kind in-thread.

General MTGO FAQ

Yes, the Shuffler is Random!
The definitive thread on the Magic Online shuffler.

Magic Math Made Easy
Draw probabilities, Swiss results, Elo ratings and booster EV

Event EV Calculator
Calculate the EV for any event with a fixed number of rounds and prizes based on record

Dual means two. A duel is a battle between two people. Lands that make two colors of mana are dual lands. A normal Magic battle is a duel.
Thanks to PhoenixLAU for the [thread=1097559]awesome avatar[/thread]!
Quotables

Show
"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
I suppose one possible way to use it is that there are certain questions about Magic that it proves, or proves to be unanswerable. For example, the question "is this an infinite loop?" is impossible to tell if the loop in question is calculating, say, whether every even integer greater than 2 can be expressed as the sum of two primes (or any similar unanswered problem). So we've proved there are some game states in Magic where it's impossible to tell whether the game is a draw or not. 

The problem is that this is only true if you can find the version without any optional parts, unfortunately.
blah blah metal lyrics
Entered thread.
Thought you had compleated Turing.
Prepared for encoming Phyrexian armageddon.
~ Guides I Have Been Silly Enough To Write ~
Budget Duals and Fetches in Multiplayer
CadaverousBl00m's Guide To Multiplayer Artifice
Multiplayer Tribal Format

~ Latest Multiplayer Ramblings: Appearing on my blog when I feel like it ~
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Rise of the Eldrazi Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Worldwake Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Zendikar Post-Rotation
Previous Multiplayer Concoctions
Elemental, My Dear Watson (Rainbow Elementals)
Watch The Little Birdies! (Bird Tribal with Proliferate)
Kavu Kavu Kavu Banana (Kavu Predator aggro)
Faerie Bleeder (The "Death By A Thousand Cuts" Faerie deck)
Braaiiins! (Mono-black Zombie control)
Verhexterring (Jinxed Ring / Grave Pact)
Flourishing Blowflies ( -1/-1 Counters)
I never looked into the concept. My comment is based on the details of exceeding the card limit of four (in the event of such a thing). I didn't have the time to check into it and I just wanted to drop my insight on the matter in case more than 4 actual copies were being used. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

IMAGE(http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/1/1c/Spr_4p_389.png)

You crashed the Matrix.

Could someone create this situation in MTGO and compute something simple? This becomes ten times more epic if it happens. I'd settle for a video of it happening at a table, to show off the idea.

So we've proved there are some game states in Magic where it's impossible to tell whether the game is a draw or not. 

With Un-sets, this has been possible for a long time. All you need to do is create a physically impossible task that must be completed. Make a token of blacker lotus using steel dice to delay the game until someone aquires some heavy machinary. Pay half a mana into prosperity, then force shuffling of librarys. Doing this in normal magic is amazing. Please post in Q and A for a check and a ruling on what happens when the game state is that way.

It just occurred to me, you could use this to create a game state that will take longer to resolve than the lifetime of the universe. If you do this with a clearly resolvable game state (multiplying two very large numbers) you could...hmmm...set a universal record? Make a judge's head explode?

It's too bad MaGo isn't writing anymore, he'd have fun with this.
Check out my cube!
Show
My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
I'm not sure you could do it on MTGO. is carnival of souls on there? how about aether flash? then again carnival isn't necessary if you give A a mikaeus the unhallowed, animate the aether flash, and give it a blight sickle. or if for some reason you can't animate all enchantments you can just use argent mutation and then karn's touch it.

 
120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
RazorBorne, all those cards are on MTGO. Only some of Ice Age block and earlier is missing.
Check out my cube!
Show
My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
RazorBorne, all those cards are on MTGO. Only some of Ice Age block and earlier is missing.


oh okay wasn't sure. I don't play MTGO.

 
120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
I want to voice my praise and admiration for an amazing feat.

Since the Turing tape is built of tokens, it didn't seem immediately obvious to me that the four-of rule would interfere. However, since a particular type of token is required, and cards are needed to generate tokens, I suppose that is where the problem comes in, as opposed to in the construction of the "machine", the tape reader and player, itself.

Since the players are required to say "yes" to some actions, though, this may not meet some definitions of "Turing-completeness" as applied to a game... but the fact that it can be used to compute anything with the cooperation of the players does mean that it meets a reasonable definition of Turing-completeness.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

RazorBorne, all those cards are on MTGO. Only some of Ice Age block and earlier is missing.


Does MTGO handle 4 way multiplayer?
"I think me going Bang bang bang I win is pretty intuitive" Mafia Record: Wouldn't you like to know? 2011 Mafia Awards - Mastermind of the Year
mymoment
\
57817638 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
88318561 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
Moriok Rigger does absolutely nothing to boost other riggers. You are incorrect.
Moriok Rigger is not a Rigger in print. Only in Errata WHAT NOW! (yes, I did put that phrase in for that exact reason)
Congratulations, they have activated your trap card!
Riptide Replicator can easily be engineered to create tokens of any type, color, and size, and it can be reset at will with Vedalken Mastermind +Freed from the Real. Even if a single player is going to be responsible for bringing almost all the cards involved, they can, since all sorts of Clone effects would suffice for the fifth and sixth copies of Teysa, and likewise Copy Enchantment for extra Cloaks of Invisibility.
RazorBorne, all those cards are on MTGO. Only some of Ice Age block and earlier is missing.


Does MTGO handle 4 way multiplayer?


Up to six, but it gets ugly fast.
Check out my cube!
Show
My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
So, is using MTGO to simulate a computer and thus steal their server time for calculations a violation of the terms of use policies?

I mean, you could just buy a computer with orders of magnitude larger processing power for the cost of a subscription, but details.
"I think me going Bang bang bang I win is pretty intuitive" Mafia Record: Wouldn't you like to know? 2011 Mafia Awards - Mastermind of the Year
mymoment
\
57817638 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
88318561 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
Moriok Rigger does absolutely nothing to boost other riggers. You are incorrect.
Moriok Rigger is not a Rigger in print. Only in Errata WHAT NOW! (yes, I did put that phrase in for that exact reason)
Congratulations, they have activated your trap card!
Last I checked, Magic Online has a limit of 200 tokens at a time, so if the tape needs to be longer than that to express your calculation, you're out of luck anyway.
Heh. In my two attempts to run the combo on MTGO, I've indeed used the Argent Mutation - Karn's Touch trick to animate Dralnu's Crusade followed by a kicked Rite of Replication. Infinite mana is definitely useful: since I'm already using Kazuul Warlord and making my other creatures Allies, I use the Harabaz Druid-Freed from the Real combo for that. Most useful in bootstrapping it all is making all 4 decks contain 4x Noble Benefactor, which will happily block each other at every opportunity: that makes the combo much quicker to set up. It's also very valuable to have a Bazaar Trader with Freed from the Real  to pass things around between the players. But MTGO doesn't let you make multiplayer games with no time limit; 2h or 2h30 is the longest it lets you give each player, and even my machine chugs when running 4 copies of the MTGO client, such that even using F4 and F6 as much as possible, the driving player runs out of time. (It doesn't help that Artificial Evolution's effects only display if the creature type is singlular in the original rules text! So hacking Dralnu's Crusade, you have to remember which ones you've evolved...)

It's looking like in order to make a proper universal Turing machine, I can't use the 2-state-3-colour one; that one needs the tape to be initialised in an infinitely nonrepeating way to do computation. It seems that 2-state-18-colour is what we need. That can be accomplished with creature types instead of colours, using loads and loads of Rotlung Reanimators. Even that is doable on MTGO: there are enough Clone variations to get 36 nontoken Reanimators easily, and if each deck has 4 of each of Teferi's Curse, Cloak of Invisibility and Copy Enchantment, that's enough for 36 phasing enchantments. Version 5 of the Turing machine will have all the details when I get it online.
what are you gonna use for the +1/+1 and -1/-1? you can get a non-may +1/+1 through hacking life and limbs and baru, fist of krosa but I don't see a way to give non-may -1/-1s based on color. or may-based ones, for that matter.



PS: is there a way to force you to make copies of something as a triggered ability? if so you can use two death's-head buzzards as long as bird isn't one of your key creature types.
120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
what are you gonna use for the +1/+1 and -1/-1? you can get a non-may +1/+1 through hacking life and limbs and baru, fist of krosa but I don't see a way to give non-may -1/-1s based on color. or may-based ones, for that matter.



PS: is there a way to force you to make copies of something as a triggered ability? if so you can use two death's-head buzzards as long as bird isn't one of your key creature types.

I don't know if it's possible to eliminate all "may"s yet. As version 5 currently stands, it's still using Kazuul Warlord with his "may". (Loads of Dralnu's Crusade let me make a complex chain of inference where anything of creature type A, B or C is therefore also of type D, and any D or E is also an F, etc.)

I have a couple of ideas. It's possible I could cause Goblin Shrine to repeatedly enter and leave the battlefield, perhaps by making and killing Leonin Relic-Warders. Or I may be able to move to a different model where each step of the machine is on a different turn, so I can use things like Kaervek's Hex or Scorch the Fields (cast via Omen Machine or Wild Evocation and recycled with an empty library and a Wheel of Sun and Moon; other players having empty libraries and Platinum Angels or similar) to damage a relevant subset of the tokens on the tape. Everlasting Torment makes the damage into -1/-1 counters.

(Ah, darn, Leonin Relic-Warder is another "may", so not him then. But something similar.)

I'm not sure I see how Death's-Head Buzzard would particularly help. I might be able to do something with Infinite Reflection there, although Gather Specimens might interfere.
what are you gonna use for the +1/+1 and -1/-1? you can get a non-may +1/+1 through hacking life and limbs and baru, fist of krosa but I don't see a way to give non-may -1/-1s based on color. or may-based ones, for that matter.



PS: is there a way to force you to make copies of something as a triggered ability? if so you can use two death's-head buzzards as long as bird isn't one of your key creature types.

I don't know if it's possible to eliminate all "may"s yet. As version 5 currently stands, it's still using Kazuul Warlord with his "may". (Loads of Dralnu's Crusade let me make a complex chain of inference where anything of creature type A, B or C is therefore also of type D, and any D or E is also an F, etc.)

I have a couple of ideas. It's possible I could cause Goblin Shrine to repeatedly enter and leave the battlefield, perhaps by making and killing Leonin Relic-Warders. Or I may be able to move to a different model where each step of the machine is on a different turn, so I can use things like Kaervek's Hex or Scorch the Fields (cast via Omen Machine or Wild Evocation and recycled with an empty library and a Wheel of Sun and Moon; other players having empty libraries and Platinum Angels or similar) to damage a relevant subset of the tokens on the tape.

(Ah, darn, Leonin Relic-Warder is another "may", so not him then. But something similar.)

I'm not sure I see how Death's-Head Buzzard would particularly help. I might be able to do something with Infinite Reflection there, although Gather Specimens might interfere.


never mind on the buzzard, I think I misinterpreted what you were going for. looking forward to version 5.

 
120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
VorpalAuroch over on Reddit suggests making Rage Forger enter/leave the battlefield, which I think may be the best option I've heard so far.
Unfortunately, that isn't going to be extensible to anything beyond Shamans, since reentering a zone causes object modification to reset, and it's not even possible to keep re-hacking with Artificial Evolution because the ability has already triggered by the time it could be used, and it can't touch triggered abilities that are already on the stack.

Even making token copies of a Rage Forger doesn't work because layer-3 effects aren't copiable.
If you cast Artificial Evolution on a spell, the effect will continue to apply to the permanent it becomes (see rule 400.7a). If you changeRage Forger's Shaman to some other creature type, it'll both be that new type and give counters to other creatures you control that have the new type.
This is the best thread in a few years. 

Orzhova Witness

Restarting Quotes Block
58086748 wrote:
58335208 wrote:
Disregard women acquire chase rares.
There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.
97820278 wrote:
144532521 wrote:
How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?
You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.